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Old
09-30-2013, 09:45 PM
  #401
MarkGio
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Originally Posted by Abbotsford Heat View Post
Horak may have played admirably, but he is not better than the veterans that made the team. That is the point. Handing a spot to a kid for no other reason than they are young is blatant stupidity and no NHL team does it.

The reason the Flames prospects in the past didn't pan out wasn't because of a lack of opportunity. IT'S BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT VERY GOOD TO BEGIN WITH.
He played better than Stempniak and Backlund IMO. Nobody is asking them to hand over a spot because they're young. Are you just making things up?

And the Flames have had highly touted prospects over the past 10 years and failed to make NHL players out of them. Some of them performed better with other teams. To think they weren't ever any good is simply not knowing them.

Feaster even said when he first took the job that he wanted to introduce youth into the line-up and thought home-grown talent deserved opportunity. This isn't a concept that I'm introducing; we've seen limited opportunities happen before with the Flames under Sutter.

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09-30-2013, 09:49 PM
  #402
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Horak is not NHL ready. The only reason he made the opening night roster in 11/12 was to make Feaster look good. He has done nothing at the NHL level, and excluding last October, nothing at the AHL level. And really, not a heck of a lot at the WHL level.

In this case I think Abbotsford Heat is right. Just not very good to begin with.


Last edited by Guido Sarducci: 09-30-2013 at 09:55 PM.
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09-30-2013, 09:55 PM
  #403
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Yes it is relevant because it shows there were plenty of spots for kids to win.
I guess you and I have a different definition of plenty.

And one of those rookies was gifted a spot; he did absolutely nothing to win it. And Street of course, or maybe even Baertschi will be sent down once Cammalleri gets healthy. So really, just three spots.

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Sieloff was not going to be in the top 6, he would have been the #7 if he made the team. What is better for his development? Sitting in the pressbox with the big club or getting a chance in the top 4 in the AHL? Call me crazy but I think at 19 him playing minutes is vital.
Maybe for the first few games. But when it becomes painfully obvious how bad a bottom 3 of Russell-Butler-O'Brien is at playing actual defense, Sieloff would work his way up the lineup pretty quick.

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Berra is in a similar situation to Sieloff, he was the 2nd best goalie in camp, but what is better for Berra, riding the pine or getting the chance to start? I say starting.
Except Ramo isn't Kiprusoff and expecting him to play more than 50 games at a high level is expecting too much. Especially since the KHL season is a lot shorter than the NHL's. It was entirely possible for Berra to get in a high number of starts with the Flames in a tandem with Ramo.

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Now let's get to Roman Horak, the single most overrated prospect in the Flames system. He is capable and not out of place in the NHL, but he is also not even close to being a stand out, hell after the first 10 games or so last year he wasn't even a stand out in the AHL, in fact he was downright mediocre. The guy is not good enough offensively to play a scoring role and isn't physical enough or gritty enough to be in a checking role. Going back to the AHL to try and develop his offensive game is exactly what he needs or he will be an AHL/NHL tweener for the rest of his career.

You like to complain about the kids not getting chances but the bottom line is if they were good enough, they would have made it. Filling a rebuilding team with a bunch of kids is not a good idea, you need a solid veteran base to bring them along properly. The Flames have that and the kids have a chance to move up the depth charts and earn more playing time. Having them have to work for it rather than just hand it to them is a good thing.
You realize you're contradicting yourself. You say Berra and Seiloff are good enough but aren't here because of contract status. Which is the entire point - for all the garbage people like to spew about the importance about prospects earning their roles and not handing out roster spots to rookies on a silver platter, at the end of the day it still comes down the contract status and systemic preference to vets. Even if the players earn their spots, they're still sent down.

And no one, anywhere is saying fill the roster full of kids or hand them anything. Rather, the Flames should try keep their word. If Horak worked his way onto the lineup only to have it snatched away at the last second because they brought in Colborne, who by most accounts, did not have a good preseason, what exactly is the message there? O'Brien had a fairly horrendous preseason but again, is he not slated to be in the opening day lineup?

Yeah, prospects (and even vets) should have to work for their spots. But if they do work for it, and eventually earn, they should be rewarded. Not demoted because management acquires a bunch of journeymen to pad out the roster or gets distracted by something shiny in another organization.

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Nobody should be complaining about colburne getting a spot given his contract. The flames just traded a pick for him, they're not about to throw him on waviers.
Uh, that's exactly why people are unhappy with it - Colborne's got a spot on the roster, either as a regular or as the 13th forward regardless of how he plays. It's unlikely the organizations ego would be let them acknowledge that they essentially threw away a 4th round pick for waiver fodder, if that happens to be the case. At least, not anytime soon. Now, how does that exactly fit with the so called 'meritocracy' program the organization is trying to implement?

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09-30-2013, 10:10 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
I guess you and I have a different definition of plenty.

And one of those rookies was gifted a spot; he did absolutely nothing to win it. And Street of course, or maybe even Baertschi will be sent down once Cammalleri gets healthy. So really, just three spots.


Maybe for the first few games. But when it becomes painfully obvious how bad a bottom 3 of Russell-Butler-O'Brien is at playing actual defense, Sieloff would work his way up the lineup pretty quick.


Except Ramo isn't Kiprusoff and expecting him to play more than 50 games at a high level is expecting too much. Especially since the KHL season is a lot shorter than the NHL's. It was entirely possible for Berra to get in a high number of starts with the Flames in a tandem with Ramo.



You realize you're contradicting yourself. You say Berra and Seiloff are good enough but aren't here because of contract status. Which is the entire point - for all the garbage people like to spew about the importance about prospects earning their roles and not handing out roster spots to rookies on a silver platter, at the end of the day it still comes down the contract status and systemic preference to vets. Even if the players earn their spots, they're still sent down.

And no one, anywhere is saying fill the roster full of kids or hand them anything. Rather, the Flames should try keep their word. If Horak worked his way onto the lineup only to have it snatched away at the last second because they brought in Colborne, who by most accounts, did not have a good preseason, what exactly is the message there? O'Brien had a fairly horrendous preseason but again, is he not slated to be in the opening day lineup?

Yeah, prospects (and even vets) should have to work for their spots. But if they do work for it, and eventually earn, they should be rewarded. Not demoted because management acquires a bunch of journeymen to pad out the roster or gets distracted by something shiny in another organization.



Uh, that's exactly why people are unhappy with it - Colborne's got a spot on the roster, either as a regular or as the 13th forward regardless of how he plays. It's unlikely the organizations ego would be let them acknowledge that they essentially thrwe away a 4th round pick for waiver fodder, if that happens to be the case. At least, not anytime soon. Now, how does that exactly fit with the so called 'meritocracy' program the organization is trying to implement?

With regards to Colborne:

The fact is that acquiring Colborne was a unique situation. You usually can't pick up a guy like him for a fourth rounder. The reason we did use a fourth rounder is because he would have had to go through Colorado, Florida, Tampa, Nashville and then Carolina before we could pick him up, that is if he isn't traded for a fifth or a sixth or even a seventh before being thrown through waivers. The fourth rounder just essentially cuts the line. So even though it's a little unfair to our kids, it's a small price to pay for what could be a solid nhl talent. If we want to pick up a young guy with size at a low asset cost and salary cost we had to make that move.

So the only drawback for acquiring a good prospect is a fourth and a roster spot. So what happens with our young guys now? Some guys develop and adjust to the pro game in Abbortsford until we make a couple of trades.

Pros: Colborne

Cons:-A fourth rounder
-We lose a roster spot we could have given to a good young player to make room for a good young player.

And if this all goes wrong and Colborne is trash? We lost nothing. It's the right decision to roll the dice here.

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09-30-2013, 10:11 PM
  #405
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I don't understand why the Flames have to go into every season with 20+ one way deals. It's a great way to say to the Heat guys "You don't have a chance".

If you go into camp with a few roster spots open and no rookies step up and grab them there are always PTO free agents and waiver wire guys.

The Flames picked up Brendan Morrison on the last day of training camp and he turned out to be a solid acquisition.

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09-30-2013, 10:15 PM
  #406
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The Flames have been working this model forever and we've seen lots of prospects never pan out as expected. They need ice time in the minors... but if you were to ask what a prospect wants - what really motivates him - its to play in the NHL, even if its at a limited role. Its their dream to play in the NHL. If continuing to have such few opening spots available to prospects haven't worked in Flames development before, why continue?

So while they're are Detroit models, they're have also been Philly, who has no problem playing rookies and allowing them to play on the bottom line. The energy line teaches a player something that the top line doesn't. There's different responsibilities, different humilities and character to be had, and different players to play against.

Horak has played 81 games at the NHL level in a limited role, playing on a struggling club. He's done admirably in his time, and given that he's 22 years old, its ridiculous to consider him a fringe NHL/AHL player. HE PLAYED BETTER than CURRENT NHL level players and is only playing at a lesser tier league because he's not in control of his future, a Flames General Manager is.
What top 9 players was Horak better than? Abbs is right his first month and a half or so in the AHL he looked mediocre and didn't stand out but that isn't really unexpected as he is more of a complementary player much like Stajan is.

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09-30-2013, 10:22 PM
  #407
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I don't understand why the Flames have to go into every season with 20+ one way deals. It's a great way to say to the Heat guys "You don't have a chance".
I think that that would be balanced by the fact that most players will likely be expecting this year to go much the same as last year; that is, pretty much every young guy in the organization who proved anything at any level got a shot to show what they could do in the NHL.

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09-30-2013, 10:22 PM
  #408
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What top 9 players was Horak better than? Abbs is right his first month and a half or so in the AHL he looked mediocre and didn't stand out but that isn't really unexpected as he is more of a complementary player much like Stajan is.
Backlund and Stempniak. Both had a poor pre-season in my eyes. Jones, Stajan, and Galiardi on the other hand, certainly earned their jobs playing at the NHL level. Not even a Baertschi-level shininess of new-toy syndrome would blind me from their efforts. Hudler and Cammy didn't really play too much so I reserve judgement there, while Jackman, McGrattan and Glencross were alright. Bouma was really good.

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09-30-2013, 10:26 PM
  #409
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Honestly not that worried about Horak. I see him as a fringe player, and there's a log jam at centre right now of prospects who are honestly better than him. Sure, he performed better than some of the veterans, but I have trouble believing he would to continue to outperform them all season long.

That being said, I see the selections for opening night as absolutely disgusting for the reasons that people are mad that Horak didn't make it. Should Butler be there? No. Smith? **** no. O'Brien wasn't looking too hot either, and the Colborne acquisition is one big headache - I want him out by next season so Monahan can play the place he deserves to play. Meanwhile, I think Wotherspoon ought to be on this roster, as well as Reinhart, Ferland and Berra. In short, I totally agree with everyone else here. Poor decisionmaking by management. This is not how you run a team.

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09-30-2013, 10:27 PM
  #410
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Backlund and Stempniak. Both had a poor pre-season in my eyes. Jones, Stajan, and Galiardi on the other hand, certainly earned their jobs playing at the NHL level. Not even a Baertschi-level shininess of new-toy syndrome would blind me from their efforts. Hudler and Cammy didn't really play too much so I reserve judgement there, while Jackman, McGrattan and Glencross were alright. Bouma was really good.
Both Backlund and Stempniak were better defensively than Horak. The thing about Horak is he looks better when he plays with better linemates where as Backlund and Stempniak are much better on their own. Horak simply isn't better than either.

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09-30-2013, 10:30 PM
  #411
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Both Backlund and Stempniak were better defensively than Horak. The thing about Horak is he looks better when he plays with better linemates where as Backlund and Stempniak are much better on their own. Horak simply isn't better than either.
I dunno. He looked good at both ends to me. Is that true over an 82 game season? Probably, but that still doesn't take away from the fact that he put in a better effort than Stempniak and Backlund.

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09-30-2013, 10:31 PM
  #412
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Both Backlund and Stempniak were better defensively than Horak. The thing about Horak is he looks better when he plays with better linemates where as Backlund and Stempniak are much better on their own. Horak simply isn't better than either.
Exactly. And I am not even a fan of Backlund, but he is much better than Horak.

The advantage veterans have is they have shown what they can and will do year in and year out. You can't just toss a guy away because he was poor in a couple pre-season games. Where as a rookie has to be good in those games to win a spot.

I also never thought Stempniak was that bad at all, I thought he was as good as Horak. And Backlund is moot since Horak doesn't have the tools to be an effective NHL centre.

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09-30-2013, 10:33 PM
  #413
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Honestly not that worried about Horak. I see him as a fringe player, and there's a log jam at centre right now of prospects who are honestly better than him. Sure, he performed better than some of the veterans, but I have trouble believing he would to continue to outperform them all season long.

That being said, I see the selections for opening night as absolutely disgusting for the reasons that people are mad that Horak didn't make it. Should Butler be there? No. Smith? **** no. O'Brien wasn't looking too hot either, and the Colborne acquisition is one big headache - I want him out by next season so Monahan can play the place he deserves to play. Meanwhile, I think Wotherspoon ought to be on this roster, as well as Reinhart, Ferland and Berra. In short, I totally agree with everyone else here. Poor decisionmaking by management. This is not how you run a team.
Feaster himself said Colborne has nothing to do with Monahan. Monahan will be our #1 centerman if not this year then next, Colborne is going to be tried as our 3rd line center. Wotherspoon and a pretty meh camp he looked alright but he was clearly a step slower than most players and often held the puck to long. I get we want the newsiest shinny toys in the lineup but simply put they all have holes in there games that can be solved with some work in the AHL. Why people think that playing top minutes in the AHL and getting to learn in a less pressure filled environment is some how bad for prospect or holding them back I will never know. We rush Backlund and he stuggles people complain, we take our time this time people complain. I guess some people will always need to find something to complain about.

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09-30-2013, 10:36 PM
  #414
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I dunno. He looked good at both ends to me. Is that true over an 82 game season? Probably, but that still doesn't take away from the fact that he put in a better effort than Stempniak and Backlund.
Better effort? How do you determine that when none took shifts off like Sven did. All 3 are working on different things, Stempniak often played the veteran position on a line hanging back making sure to cover for rookies. Backlund was clearly trying to find the next gear offensively and get some mojo going and he still out played Horak defensively.

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09-30-2013, 10:37 PM
  #415
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Exactly. And I am not even a fan of Backlund, but he is much better than Horak.

The advantage veterans have is they have shown what they can and will do year in and year out. You can't just toss a guy away because he was poor in a couple pre-season games. Where as a rookie has to be good in those games to win a spot.

I also never thought Stempniak was that bad at all, I thought he was as good as Horak. And Backlund is moot since Horak doesn't have the tools to be an effective NHL centre.
So what's the point of a preseason? Flames staff keep saying its for guys to earn a job, so I don't know...

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09-30-2013, 10:39 PM
  #416
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So what's the point of a preseason? Flames staff keep saying its for guys to earn a job, so I don't know...
it's simple...

to earn a job you have out show you can do as much or more than a veteran is known for (not what they did in that camp).

it's the way it's always been, the way it always will be too. it's not a Flames thing, it's a sports thing.

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09-30-2013, 10:41 PM
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I will say this however, had some of those guys put in the effort that Bouma got in his little ice-time, Id be far more emotional about the cuts. Sure, some guys played well, but they were still out-played by Bouma. He'll have a great season if he keeps it up!

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09-30-2013, 10:42 PM
  #418
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So what's the point of a preseason? Flames staff keep saying its for guys to earn a job, so I don't know...
The problem is their are only 9 spots Horak could have taken (4th line and press box do nothing for him). He isn't a center as he is to weak on draws. So there are 6 spots for him so he has to clearly beat out one of Glencross, Stempniak, Jones, Baertschi, Cammy, Hudler, and he didn't. He looked very good but was still behind each one for different reasons.

There will be injures this season (there always are) and if he plays well in Abbs he could force managements hand into moving one of this wingers listed above to make room for him. Not to mention there are only 5 1 way contracts on the team at forward right now for next year, he should spend the year working his ass off and trying to get a spot latter this year and into next year.

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09-30-2013, 10:46 PM
  #419
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I will say this however, had some of those guys put in the effort that Bouma got in his little ice-time, Id be far more emotional about the cuts. Sure, some guys played well, but they were still out-played by Bouma. He'll have a great season if he keeps it up!
Bouma is the type of 4th liner a team needs to hold onto, they are very very valuable. He is a natural leader and is one of the most tenacious players I have ever seen.

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10-01-2013, 01:06 AM
  #420
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The problem is their are only 9 spots Horak could have taken (4th line and press box do nothing for him). He isn't a center as he is to weak on draws. So there are 6 spots for him so he has to clearly beat out one of Glencross, Stempniak, Jones, Baertschi, Cammy, Hudler, and he didn't. He looked very good but was still behind each one for different reasons.

There will be injures this season (there always are) and if he plays well in Abbs he could force managements hand into moving one of this wingers listed above to make room for him. Not to mention there are only 5 1 way contracts on the team at forward right now for next year, he should spend the year working his ass off and trying to get a spot latter this year and into next year.
In regards to Horak, this post describes the situation perfectly, forget about Colborne because he's a center. Horak simply put did not prove enough to earn a spot over Glencross, Stempniak, Cammy, Hudler or Jones. I will say I think he outplayed Sven, and that decision is definitely up for debate IMO. But in no way should Horak be playing on the 4th here instead of on the top line in Abby.

I think management really evaluated Knight and Reinhart hard and ultimately felt that Colborne was further along than them so he was brought in.

One thing I do agree with though is I don't care who you are, spots should be given to whoever earns them regardless of what your name is. But hockey is a business so a lot of grey comes into equation. However I really feel all this talk will be put to rest because we are going to see a ton of Heat players on the team this year. Peter Maher even said he wouldn't be surprised if the Flames set a record for callups in a single season.

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10-01-2013, 09:04 AM
  #421
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Why, Burke has only really seen him this offseason and he was ****ing terrible. Sven has played some of his worst hockey in the last month I'm not surprised Burke isn't impressed as no one should be. This should be a wake up call to Sven that he can't just bank on past seasons to make the team he has to show what he can do every time he gets a chance especially when we have new director of hockey.
Don't be too concerned. I know he gets sort of a rep for running his mouth, but he knows what he's doing. Take it from a Leaf fan who's gone through it at all.

He did this same thing for Kadri.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle4190267/

The first quote from Burke on Kadri is almost identical to what he said about Baertschi. He's not being critical to be mean, he's not being critical to make it look like he's doing something for his new team, he's doing it for a purpose.

He's trying to light a fire under Baertschi's ass. Make him want to prove his bosses wrong. Burke has a certain distance from Baertschi, one that Hartley doesn't. Burke can say that without it seeming to Baertschi like he's lost his coaches confidence.

Baertschi wasn't good this past little while. Burke's making sure he doesn't get a free pass. That's not good either.

Burke's doing his job. He did it before with Kadri and it seems to have worked out. Give him some time to do his job.

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10-01-2013, 12:43 PM
  #422
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Don't be too concerned. I know he gets sort of a rep for running his mouth, but he knows what he's doing. Take it from a Leaf fan who's gone through it at all.

He did this same thing for Kadri.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle4190267/

The first quote from Burke on Kadri is almost identical to what he said about Baertschi. He's not being critical to be mean, he's not being critical to make it look like he's doing something for his new team, he's doing it for a purpose.

He's trying to light a fire under Baertschi's ass. Make him want to prove his bosses wrong. Burke has a certain distance from Baertschi, one that Hartley doesn't. Burke can say that without it seeming to Baertschi like he's lost his coaches confidence.

Baertschi wasn't good this past little while. Burke's making sure he doesn't get a free pass. That's not good either.

Burke's doing his job. He did it before with Kadri and it seems to have worked out. Give him some time to do his job.
Good find, interesting to note the parallels between these two stories.

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