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09-22-2013, 11:28 AM
  #276
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Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
Except for the lack of confidence thing, I wouldn't call playing a safe and conservative game a lack of confidence...he's playing the style of game that gets him a shot at making the team, he ain't no fool.
Exactly.

Rielly's mission this camp is to show he is reliable defensively, and so far he's passing that test with flying colors.

Nobody is worried about his offense, and hs offensive skills qre still obvious even though he's clearly not gamblng offensively so far.

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09-22-2013, 11:31 AM
  #277
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I don't like the idea of anyone under 20 being in the NHL. 99% of them are still mentally teenagers who should be around their own cohort. For me it's a maturity thing, and I'd prefer he get a chance to be in a leadership role. Hopefully he gets traded to a contender in junior. Could shift the balance of power to whoever gets him. I really like this player, though. Let's ship him back. He's not going to be a difference maker this year anyway.

If his team is out during the playoffs, then we can use him then. Nice little wildcard stacked in our favour, and we can break him into NHL hockey when it matters most. Playoff time.

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09-22-2013, 11:39 AM
  #278
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Thanks for the info, how does the slush fund work? The bonus goes against next year's cap?
I believe so, yes

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09-22-2013, 11:40 AM
  #279
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I don't like the idea of anyone under 20 being in the NHL. 99% of them are still mentally teenagers who should be around their own cohort. For me it's a maturity thing, and I'd prefer he get a chance to be in a leadership role. Hopefully he gets traded to a contender in junior. Could shift the balance of power to whoever gets him. I really like this player, though. Let's ship him back. He's not going to be a difference maker this year anyway.

If his team is out during the playoffs, then we can use him then. Nice little wildcard stacked in our favour, and we can break him into NHL hockey when it matters most. Playoff time.
Exactly.

Give him his 9gms, send him back to jr. When he's able to play AHL next year, give him some time there playing big minutes and then talk about the NHL

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09-22-2013, 11:47 AM
  #280
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Exactly.

Give him his 9gms, send him back to jr. When he's able to play AHL next year, give him some time there playing big minutes and then talk about the NHL
... you really watch Rielly right now and think he's as much as two seasons away from the NHL?

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09-22-2013, 11:53 AM
  #281
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I wouldn't want to see us keep Rielly up all year if he's only getting 10 - 12 minutes a night, in 50 - 60 games. He's been so focused on playing a sound two-way game (which he's shown imo he can do) that he hasn't really been the offensive player we want him to be.

I'd rather he get 9 games in the NHL, go back to Moose Jaw and play 25 - 30 minutes a night in all situations, play a prominent role for Canada at the WJC, and then perhaps rejoin us for the playoffs if Moose Jaw is eliminated early. That's a solid year of development, and he'd come into camp as a 20 year old next season with a spot penciled in for him.

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09-22-2013, 11:54 AM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Gutchecktime View Post
... you really watch Rielly right now and think he's as much as two seasons away from the NHL?
I think he needs time in the AHL.

He's not a groundbreaking player at the NHL level yet and he hasn't done at the AHL level yet either. Let him transition into the pro game by playing big minutes in the AHL. There's nothing wrong with the Kadri model.I'd much rather take that route with a 19 year-old d-man.

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09-22-2013, 12:06 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by jmart21 View Post
Exactly.

Give him his 9gms, send him back to jr. When he's able to play AHL next year, give him some time there playing big minutes and then talk about the NHL


What if Rielly proves he belongs after 9 games, do you keep him up? Or are you saying to send him down after 9 games no matter how he plays?

IMHO Rielly could be an upgrade over Franson, while giving us better dollar value against the cap. His chances are looking good imho.

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09-22-2013, 12:08 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
What if Rielly proves he belongs after 9 games, do you keep him up? Or are you saying to send him down after 9 games no matter how he plays?

IMHO Rielly could be an upgrade over Franson, while giving us better dollar value against the cap. His chances are looking good imho.

I can't predict the future. Based on his play right now he's certainly not enough of a standout to warrant playing a 19-yr old in the NHL.

As Nonis said last night, he's not staying unless he's playing a prominent role and IMO thus far he hasn't done anything to secure himself a major role. He's not going to be kept here to play 10mins a night just to practice with the team.

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09-22-2013, 12:08 PM
  #285
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I think he needs time in the AHL.

He's not a groundbreaking player at the NHL level yet and he hasn't done at the AHL level yet either. Let him transition into the pro game by playing big minutes in the AHL. There's nothing wrong with the Kadri model.I'd much rather take that route with a 19 year-old d-man.
You know that this simply isn't how most teams treat their highly touted young defensemen though, right? If the Leafs kept Rielly this year or if they sent him back and he came up next year with no AHL time, it wouldn't be out of line with how other teams do things whatsoever.

J. Johnson, E. Johnson, Doughty, Schenn, Bogosian, Pietrangelo, Hedman, Larsson, Gudbranson, Hamilton were all NHL regulars without AHL time. Only two of them had two post-draft years in the CHL/NCAA.

The only top 5 guys I can think of who did are Thomas Hickey (7 years post draft in the WHL/AHL - suggests this was just a poor draft pick, period) and Alzner.

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09-22-2013, 12:11 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by jmart21 View Post
I think he needs time in the AHL.

He's not a groundbreaking player at the NHL level yet and he hasn't done at the AHL level yet either. Let him transition into the pro game by playing big minutes in the AHL. There's nothing wrong with the Kadri model.I'd much rather take that route with a 19 year-old d-man.
Due to a late (or early, not sure) birthday, Kadri was eligible to play in the AHL one year after his draft year.

Kadri and Rielly are very different players. Kadri wasn't strong enough as a teenager to play in the NHL. Rielly has exceptional lower body and core strength (he's 6 foot 205 pounds), and already seems ready for battles in the corner with men. Kadri didn't yet have that extra gear which elite offensive players need to have in the NHL in order to gain separation. Rielly has elite level speed and is already one of our best skaters.

I think Rielly is ready for the NHL now, but I believe he'll get more out of getting a 9 game taste, and then going back to junior to log huge minutes in Moose Jaw, and for team Canada at the WJC, than playing a small role with the Leafs.

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09-22-2013, 12:15 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by Gutchecktime View Post
You know that this simply isn't how most teams treat their highly touted young defensemen though, right? If the Leafs kept Rielly this year or if they sent him back and he came up next year with no AHL time, it wouldn't be out of line with how other teams do things whatsoever.

J. Johnson, E. Johnson, Doughty, Schenn, Bogosian, Pietrangelo, Hedman, Larsson, Gudbranson, Hamilton were all NHL regulars without AHL time. Only two of them had two post-draft years in the CHL/NCAA.

The only top 5 guys I can think of who did are Thomas Hickey (7 years post draft in the WHL/AHL - suggests this was just a poor draft pick, period) and Alzner.
Why does what other teams have done mean anything? This isn't something you can cover with a blanket statement. It's what they do on the ice that matters.

When Luke Schenn made the team in his rookie year; he was the best defenseman in camp. If Rielly wants to make this team he has to really standout, not just look better than our #6 dman. He has to show he's one of our top 4 guys and play a prominent role. While he's had solid play, he hasn't done enough yet to warrant him as a standout 19y/o ready to play big minutes in the NHL.

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09-22-2013, 12:24 PM
  #288
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Why does what other teams have done mean anything? This isn't something you can cover with a blanket statement. It's what they do on the ice that matters.
Hey, just pointing out that defensemen drafted in the top 5 typically don't spend any time at all in the AHL so the idea that he'll need more time there next September seems pretty far-fetched to me. And it seems worthwhile to point out that no other teams do it this way because I think Leaf fans are really terrified/scared about the idea of "rushing" players, more so than any other fanbase out there.

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When Luke Schenn made the team in his rookie year; he was the best defenseman in camp
Are we trying to do things like Luke Schenn or not like Luke Schenn? It seems like people keep going back and forth on this.

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If Rielly wants to make this team he has to really standout, not just look better than our #6 dman. He has to show he's one of our top 4 guys and play a prominent role. While he's had solid play, he hasn't done enough yet to warrant him as a standout 19y/o ready to play big minutes in the NHL.
I disagree. It seems like Randy Carlyle does too. He has to play worthwhile minutes and he has to be a contributor but it doesn't sound like they think he has to be a Top 4 guy to stay or even play every single night. I like that approach personally.

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09-22-2013, 12:25 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by BobloblawLeaf View Post
I wouldn't want to see us keep Rielly up all year if he's only getting 10 - 12 minutes a night, in 50 - 60 games. He's been so focused on playing a sound two-way game (which he's shown imo he can do) that he hasn't really been the offensive player we want him to be.

I'd rather he get 9 games in the NHL, go back to Moose Jaw and play 25 - 30 minutes a night in all situations, play a prominent role for Canada at the WJC, and then perhaps rejoin us for the playoffs if Moose Jaw is eliminated early. That's a solid year of development, and he'd come into camp as a 20 year old next season with a spot penciled in for him.
The only way for him to learn to better pick his spots at the NHL level would be for him to play at the NHL level, not against kids who don't come close to what a NHL vet brings. Honestly, what he's doing now is very damn impressive and a sign of his maturity. Usually kids his age with his skill-set are usually so focused on creating offense that they forget about the defensive aspect of their position.

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09-22-2013, 12:28 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by jmart21 View Post
I think he needs time in the AHL.

He's not a groundbreaking player at the NHL level yet and he hasn't done at the AHL level yet either. Let him transition into the pro game by playing big minutes in the AHL. There's nothing wrong with the Kadri model.I'd much rather take that route with a 19 year-old d-man.
The "Kadri treatment" was mainly the management not thinking he was physically ready for the NHL or to play center. Morgan is the complete opposite.

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09-22-2013, 12:40 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by Gutchecktime View Post
You know that this simply isn't how most teams treat their highly touted young defensemen though, right? If the Leafs kept Rielly this year or if they sent him back and he came up next year with no AHL time, it wouldn't be out of line with how other teams do things whatsoever.

J. Johnson, E. Johnson, Doughty, Schenn, Bogosian, Pietrangelo, Hedman, Larsson, Gudbranson, Hamilton were all NHL regulars without AHL time. Only two of them had two post-draft years in the CHL/NCAA.

The only top 5 guys I can think of who did are Thomas Hickey (7 years post draft in the WHL/AHL - suggests this was just a poor draft pick, period) and Alzner.
The AHL isn't an option this season anyways unless it's a situation like last year where Rielly comes up at the end of the year.

For this year I'd be inclined to put Rielly back in junior but the Leafs should be talking to his junior team trading him to a better team so that he can play with other skilled players in more meaningful games than on a rebuilding team.

I believe he simply needs to play a lot of hockey. People forget he only played 18 games in his draft year so he missed a big chunk of development time. Rielly also failed to stand out in the World Juniors against his peers which if he's as good as the hype he should be able to change that this year and be a star like Pietrangelo/Subban/Phaneuf were as 19 year olds in that tourney.

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09-22-2013, 12:41 PM
  #292
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The AHL isn't an option this season anyways unless it's a situation like last year where Rielly comes up at the end of the year.

For this year I'd be inclined to put Rielly back in junior but the Leafs should be talking to his junior team trading him to a better team so that he can play with other skilled players in more meaningful games than on a rebuilding team.

I believe he simply needs to play a lot of hockey. People forget he only played 18 games in his draft year so he missed a big chunk of development time. Rielly also failed to stand out in the World Juniors against his peers which if he's as good as the hype he should be able to change that this year and be a star like Pietrangelo/Subban/Phaneuf were as 19 year olds in that tourney.
Yes. I know this. jmart posted that he believes Rielly will likely need AHL time next September. I disagreed with this stance.

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09-22-2013, 12:49 PM
  #293
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I can't predict the future. Based on his play right now he's certainly not enough of a standout to warrant playing a 19-yr old in the NHL.

As Nonis said last night, he's not staying unless he's playing a prominent role and IMO thus far he hasn't done anything to secure himself a major role. He's not going to be kept here to play 10mins a night just to practice with the team.
the idea that Rielly has to play like an all-star in order to make this team is silly.

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09-22-2013, 12:55 PM
  #294
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Yes. I know this. jmart posted that he believes Rielly will likely need AHL time next September. I disagreed with this stance.
I'm saying he will likely need some more pro experience before making the jump to NHL full time.

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09-22-2013, 01:00 PM
  #295
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You're right...they aren't on the same level as Rielly. From what I've seen, Percy and MacWilliam have actually stood out.
Sorry, but I strongly disagree. Percy has been good, but Rielly has been better. He can and has skated the puck out of trouble, Percy not so much. Mac William has struggled with the speed of the game and will not be staying at all....his physical play is nice but at the cost of bad decisions...no thanks.

I feel that Rielly will easily separate himself from Percy and others but the end of camp....stay tune and watch...

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09-22-2013, 01:09 PM
  #296
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I'm saying he will likely need some more pro experience before making the jump to NHL full time.
As I've shown, history with highly drafted defensemen suggests that's not the case.

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09-22-2013, 01:22 PM
  #297
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As I've shown, history with highly drafted defensemen suggests that's not the case.
And as I've said already; it shouldn't matter to RC and Nonis what the Blues did with EJ or the Kings with DD, or the Habs with PK.

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09-22-2013, 01:31 PM
  #298
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And as I've said already; it shouldn't matter to RC and Nonis what the Blues did with EJ or the Kings with DD, or the Habs with PK.
Yeah, you aren't getting it.

I'm not saying Morgan Rielly isn't likely to play in the AHL because Nonis will be looking at what other teams did. I'm saying he isn't likely to play in the AHL because history suggests players of this calibre don't typically need the AHL time. Like I said, only Alzner and Hickey since 2005. The others were NHL at 18 (Doughty, Schenn, Bogosian, Hedman, Larsson), NHL after one post-draft CHL/NCAA season (E. Johnson, Gudbranson), or the odd case NHL after 2 years CHL/NCAA (Pietrangelo, J. Johnson).

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09-22-2013, 01:37 PM
  #299
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People remember fondly Schenn's first year, and while not awful, it was also true we fawned over every 8 foot pass like it was a Picasso, every hit overshadowed every missed assignment. Perhaps it was expectations more than performance that explain the 2nd year regressed mythology, perhaps we actually looked with a critical eye, instead of shiny new toy glasses. Just sayin.
Oh, I was the bad, mean, trolling poster who thought Schenn wasn't the greatest thing since Tim Horton. When I suggested he should get some minor league time there was almost a war here.

Normal reaction though, people only see what they want to see. Forget seeing Rielly caught out of position, with the Sens going on two on one's with Rielly trying to catch up.

Just fans being fans, with the Leafs having great prospects regardless of what most of the hockey world sees.

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09-22-2013, 01:39 PM
  #300
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Oh, I was the bad, mean, trolling poster who thought Schenn wasn't the greatest thing since Tim Horton. When I suggested he should get some minor league time there was almost a war here.

Normal reaction though, people only see what they want to see. Forget seeing Rielly caught out of position, with the Sens going on two on one's with Rielly trying to catch up.

Just fans being fans, with the Leafs having great prospects regardless of what most of the hockey world sees.
Just curious, what do you think this would've or could've done for his development? Do you think he'd be a different player today if he'd gotten the minor league time?

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