HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Hockey Fights
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Hockey Fights Discuss and rate hockey fights and fighters of today and from the past. Videos welcome!

End of fighting in the NHL?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
10-01-2013, 05:37 PM
  #226
Iusedtoloveher
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 39
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
Sticks are part a crucial part of the game, fights are not.
Sticks are a lot more dangerous than fists though. Maybe we can just have them play with floor hockey sticks. That would also slow down the speed of the nerf puck that we're going to use. Pucks these days go 100+ miles per hour, and that's very dangerous to player safety. Doing these things ensures that we have all of the "crucial parts" of the game in tact. Same game, safer equipment.

Iusedtoloveher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2013, 05:48 PM
  #227
canucksfan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 32,340
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iusedtoloveher View Post
Sticks are a lot more dangerous than fists though. Maybe we can just have them play with floor hockey sticks. That would also slow down the speed of the nerf puck that we're going to use. Pucks these days go 100+ miles per hour, and that's very dangerous to player safety. Doing these things ensures that we have all of the "crucial parts" of the game in tact. Same game, safer equipment.
How many concussions have sticks caused?

canucksfan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2013, 05:57 PM
  #228
billybudd
5 cups pls
 
billybudd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 19,954
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
How many concussions have sticks caused?
Chris Pronger's career effectively ended on a concussion caused by an errant stick.

billybudd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2013, 05:58 PM
  #229
Iusedtoloveher
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 39
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
How many concussions have sticks caused?
How many deaths have concussions caused? And correlation does not equal causation so don't link me to some study that makes a correlation.

Also, what leads you to believe that sticks won't be used more if fights are taken out of the game? Players are always going to protect themselves somehow.

Also, answer the question. Floor hockey sticks and nerf pucks are a lot safer for players, are they not?

Iusedtoloveher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2013, 05:59 PM
  #230
canucksfan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 32,340
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iusedtoloveher View Post
How many deaths have concussions caused? And correlation does not equal causation so don't link me to some study that makes a correlation.

Also, what leads you to believe that sticks won't be used more if fights are taken out of the game? Players are always going to protect themselves somehow.

Also, answer the question. Floor hockey sticks and nerf pucks are a lot safer for players, are they not?
Answer the question

canucksfan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2013, 06:03 PM
  #231
Iusedtoloveher
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 39
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
Answer the question
I asked first.

Iusedtoloveher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2013, 06:05 PM
  #232
canucksfan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 32,340
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Chris Pronger's career effectively ended on a concussion caused by an errant stick.
For sure which is why mandatory visors have been put into place something I have been calling for years now.

canucksfan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2013, 06:10 PM
  #233
Iusedtoloveher
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 39
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
Answer the question
You're the one worried about death, not me. Concussions are something that come with the territory IMO. When they happen, you have to make sure they're treated right. Also, "you are at a higher risk for a concussion to occur if you play a contact sport; however, more concussions occur off the field than on each year. Falls in your home and automobile accidents top the list of causes of head injuries."

Players know what they're getting into, but since we want to protect them, maybe we should make sure they don't fall on the ice. How about getting rid of body checks? Maybe we can replace the glass with foam on the side of the rinks.

Iusedtoloveher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2013, 06:15 PM
  #234
canucksfan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 32,340
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iusedtoloveher View Post
How many deaths have concussions caused? And correlation does not equal causation so don't link me to some study that makes a correlation.

Also, what leads you to believe that sticks won't be used more if fights are taken out of the game? Players are always going to protect themselves somehow.

Also, answer the question. Floor hockey sticks and nerf pucks are a lot safer for players, are they not?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iusedtoloveher View Post
I asked first.
As far as I know in the past 20 years there has been one concussion caused from sticks. The Brashear incident. Sticks have caused severe injuries to eyes but that will decrease a lot with mandatory visors.

The dangers of concussions has been clearly documented in this thread by myself and others. You can read through the thread to see them.

With the increasing knowledge we have about the dangers of concussions we should be protecting players more. The NHL has banned hits to the head. That was a step in the right direction. The NHL has not done much about fighting. That is something I want to see happen.

Letting the players stand there and not move is a lot safer as well but I don't want to see that happen.

canucksfan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2013, 06:23 PM
  #235
Iusedtoloveher
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 39
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
As far as I know in the past 20 years there has been one concussion caused from sticks. The Brashear incident. Sticks have caused severe injuries to eyes but that will decrease a lot with mandatory visors.

The dangers of concussions has been clearly documented in this thread by myself and others. You can read through the thread to see them.

With the increasing knowledge we have about the dangers of concussions we should be protecting players more. The NHL has banned hits to the head. That was a step in the right direction. The NHL has not done much about fighting. That is something I want to see happen.

Letting the players stand there and not move is a lot safer as well but I don't want to see that happen.
Good job not answering the question. You said that you wanted every injury that could lead to death to be looked at, yet, you still haven't showed me where concussions lead to death. You've also been very inconsistent in your posts. You say that you care about player safety, but when I propose things that could make it a lot safer for players, you don't seem to want to implement those safety measures. I'm looking for consistency. If you say that you care about player safety, care about player safety when it comes to equipment too.

Iusedtoloveher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2013, 06:34 PM
  #236
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 10,790
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
Sticks are part a crucial part of the game, fights are not.
Says who? You? You know who disagrees with you? The rich history of the NHL which had always had fights and more than 95℅ of anyone who has ever played the game.

If the argument is based upon your own delusional opinions, good luck convincing anyone of their validity.

sandysan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2013, 06:41 PM
  #237
canucksfan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 32,340
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iusedtoloveher View Post
Good job not answering the question.
You have asked many ridiculous hypothetical questions which I have decided not to answer.

Quote:
You said that you wanted every injury that could lead to death to be looked at, yet, you still haven't showed me where concussions lead to death.
I want injuries that lead to brain trauma looked at. I know that concussions will never go away. HGowever, I want to LIMIT them.

Quote:
You've also been very inconsistent in your posts. You say that you care about player safety, but when I propose things that could make it a lot safer for players, you don't seem to want to implement those safety measures. I'm looking for consistency. If you say that you care about player safety, care about player safety when it comes to equipment too.
You have posted ridiculous hypothetical situations.

canucksfan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2013, 06:50 PM
  #238
canucksfan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 32,340
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
Says who? You? You know who disagrees with you? The rich history of the NHL which had always had fights and more than 95℅ of anyone who has ever played the game.

If the argument is based upon your own delusional opinions, good luck convincing anyone of their validity.
Leagues such as the CHL and NHL seem to follow what I believe as they are putting in place rules to limit fighting.

canucksfan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2013, 06:52 PM
  #239
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 25,449
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iusedtoloveher View Post
It was never a sport to me, but ESPN saw that it would get viewers so they put it on the air. MTV did the same thing when they stopped playing music videos.

Speaking of players taking responsibility. Here's a good reply from Vince Wilfork, who just injured his ACL.

"One thing I know is I signed up to play football. I donít regret anything that has happened and there is no need to feel sorry about it. Iíve been blessed to only have had one surgery prior to today and that was in high school. I know what signing up to play football means and I know the rewards and risks. This is my job and I will switch positions for now and play the role of patient but that is only temporary."
I'm not going to argue with the massive Wilfork on that one. I think he hits the nail on the head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
Show me evidence where there is more stickwork in college than there is in the NHL. I have looked and never found any.
Watch one of the games

Quote:
There is no fighting in field hokcey and they are also carrying a weapon. Your 72' Summit Series is over 40 years old. The game has changed so much.
Now I KNOW you didn't compare hockey to field hockey. I'll let you off the hook, I'll ignore that one.

Quote:
A big hit, a great shift, a goal, a save etc. MAY have also changed that series around. Fighting can energize a team. I have also seen a player fight to energize his team and his team does nothing.
I've also seen a captain read his teammates the riot act and they still lose badly. What's the point? The point is by eliminating fighting you are taking one extra thing out of the game that can be used as a tool.

Quote:
Brashear was an enforcer. He was on the team to fight. A recent example is Scott. The guy is a dud yet is on a team for one reason, to fight. He goes to pick on Kessel. I don't want some goon picking on star players. Get rid of fighting and these plugs are gone.
I'm not a big fan of defending Brashear, but he was good enough to be on the 4th line. His role was an enforcer, but he peaked at 32 points and managed to play in 60 playoff games in his career. That's at least a 4th liner there.

Scott is a guy I wouldn't want on my team. Not sure if he made Buffalo, but since they are going to be utterly terrible this year he may not look out of place there.

But hey, aren't you glad that Kessel had his buddies come and fight on his behalf? How else do you stand up to a 6'8" guy? I don't think Kessel playing Paul Bunyan would have gone over well if he cracks Scott's ankle right?

But if a guy like Scott isn't in the NHL it doesn't mean fighting is gone. It still has a purpose. One of the better fighters in the NHL - Clarkson - is now Kessel's teammate and one thing the Leafs haven't been in the last couple of years are pushovers.

Lastly, what is it about our unique game that makes you want to change so much of it? This is the fastest game without an engine. On any given shift you can see an end to end rush, a glove save, a hard hit a top corner shot and two honest guys settling the game down with a fight. How much more diverse of a game is there? This is why I could care less about hockey needing to be "like other sports".

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2013, 06:59 PM
  #240
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 25,449
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
How many concussions have sticks caused?
You're kidding right? Well, Ace Bailey, Ted Green, Drew Stafford (AHL) are guys I can name off the top of my head who almost DIED from the stick being used as a weapon, let alone concussions.

Koivu, Yzerman, Berard, MacInnis, Pronger, Parent are players whose careers were either threatened or finished because of a high stick. And that wasn't even used as a weapon.

But I'll ask you this since no one has answered it yet. How many times have careers ended because of a fight? Nick Kypreos is the one I can think of and to be honest if there are more the list is so small it will pale in comparison to the careers ended from elbows, hits from behind, shots, sticks, etc.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2013, 07:05 PM
  #241
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 10,790
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
Leagues such as the CHL and NHL seem to follow what I believe as they are putting in place rules to limit fighting.
I'm sure there are mite leagues you could follow. The issue is the NHL , not the c the o or the a. The n. You know the one with fighting since day one.

Are the goalposts still heavy after you keep moving them so often.

If I really really don't like the kings and absolutely don't think they deserved to have won the cup, can I say they never won a cup? I can if I don't mind looking crazy ( here's a hint, that hypothetical is a mirror for you).

sandysan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2013, 07:11 PM
  #242
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 10,790
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
Leagues such as the CHL and NHL seem to follow what I believe as they are putting in place rules to limit fighting.
I'm sure there are mite leagues you could follow. The issue is the NHL , not the c the o or the a. The n. You know the one with fighting since day one.

Are the goalposts still heavy after you keep moving them so often.

If I really really don't like the kings and absolutely don't think they deserved to have won the cup, can I say they never won a cup? I can if I don't mind looking crazy ( here's a hint, that hypothetical is a mirror for you).

sandysan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2013, 07:20 PM
  #243
Banana Sandwiches
Registered User
 
Banana Sandwiches's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Country: United States
Posts: 2,664
vCash: 500
I don't get why people don't understand that hockey is meant to be a concussion sport. Sure, you can make rules to eliminate concussions, but then you're going to be left indoor shinny.

Banana Sandwiches is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2013, 08:38 PM
  #244
Mayor Bee
\/me_____you\/
 
Mayor Bee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 17,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banana Sandwiches View Post
I don't get why people don't understand that hockey is meant to be a concussion sport. Sure, you can make rules to eliminate concussions, but then you're going to be left indoor shinny.
No it is not. If a concussion or other injury happens as a result of something within the rules of the game, it's an unfortunate occurrence. This is what's generally referred to as "an occupational hazard", and the standards differ greatly from occupation to occupation.

It's why a lot of stuff that takes place in hockey is regarded as minor, while anything similar that takes place in baseball would be regarded as a pretty serious matter. Strike an opposing player in hockey with your stick, and it's usually a minor penalty. Strike an opposing player in baseball with your bat, and enjoy the lengthy suspension.

This is why a lot of the attempts to derail discussion into the completely unreasonable don't stand up to anything. This has absolutely nothing to do with "preventing every injury", a common strawman that usually ends up in some idiotic comment about bubble wrap. The ultimate standard is "what is reasonable?" Brian Savage once suffered a neck fracture on a clean hit in open ice (I think it was Ian Laperriere); it was extremely unfortunate, but in no way intentional, reckless, or even negligent. Steve Moore suffered a neck fracture at the hands of Todd Bertuzzi, which was (at minimum) reckless. No one said anything about banning checking when Savage was injured, because it was recognized (correctly) as being a freak accident. Checking does not carry a disproportionately high risk of neck fractures.

It's why Vince Wilfork isn't complaining about an ACL tear: it happens in football. But it's a lot different story between it happening as part of the game, and as getting chopped from behind 30 yards away from the play. It's the difference between a running back suffering a concussion on a hard hit by a linebacker, and suffering a concussion after getting speared five yards out of bounds.

Does anyone remember the NHL's seamless glass? They tried it in the 1990s to eliminate the weird sightlines that result from sitting right on the glass, and the obstructed view that the brackets can provide. The glass only lasted a few years because players said it was harder, had less give than the old stuff, and resulted in more concussions from hitting. NASCAR changed 50 years of their own tradition of drivers, y'know, dying by passing a slew of safety regulations, some of which actually changed track configurations. And that's a group more obstinate than the NHL.

When there are additional danger factors that can be eliminated, common sense dictates that its role should be carefully assessed.


Last edited by Mayor Bee: 10-01-2013 at 08:43 PM.
Mayor Bee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2013, 09:01 PM
  #245
Iusedtoloveher
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 39
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
You have asked many ridiculous hypothetical questions which I have decided not to answer.

I want injuries that lead to brain trauma looked at. I know that concussions will never go away. HGowever, I want to LIMIT them.
No, you decided they were hypothetical questions when you realized that you couldn't answer them.

What you want is to get rid of fighting. You don't care about player safety because if you did you'd be worried about sticks, pucks, and body checks just as much or more than you do fights.

Iusedtoloveher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2013, 09:03 PM
  #246
Iusedtoloveher
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 39
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
This is why a lot of the attempts to derail discussion into the completely unreasonable don't stand up to anything. This has absolutely nothing to do with "preventing every injury", a common strawman that usually ends up in some idiotic comment about bubble wrap. The ultimate standard is "what is reasonable?" Brian Savage once suffered a neck fracture on a clean hit in open ice (I think it was Ian Laperriere); it was extremely unfortunate, but in no way intentional, reckless, or even negligent. Steve Moore suffered a neck fracture at the hands of Todd Bertuzzi, which was (at minimum) reckless. No one said anything about banning checking when Savage was injured, because it was recognized (correctly) as being a freak accident. Checking does not carry a disproportionately high risk of neck fractures.
I've got news for you, when you crash into other grown men for a living, your brain is going to get rattled from time to time. If you guys were really worried about player safety you'd be talking about getting rid of body checks instead of fights. Body checks happen all of the time, fights do not.

Iusedtoloveher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2013, 09:05 PM
  #247
canucksfan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 32,340
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post

Watch one of the games
I have I don't see more stickwork. I watch IIHF games and I see less stickwork than NHL games.


Quote:
Now I KNOW you didn't compare hockey to field hockey. I'll let you off the hook, I'll ignore that one.
Obviously a stretch one my part but most of the pro fighting argument is turning the argument into nerf hockey pucks and surface. More ridiculous than my comparison to field hockey.

Quote:
I've also seen a captain read his teammates the riot act and they still lose badly. What's the point? The point is by eliminating fighting you are taking one extra thing out of the game that can be used as a tool.
A shoulder hit to the head could also turn the game around, now that is gone.

Quote:
I'm not a big fan of defending Brashear, but he was good enough to be on the 4th line. His role was an enforcer, but he peaked at 32 points and managed to play in 60 playoff games in his career. That's at least a 4th liner there.

Scott is a guy I wouldn't want on my team. Not sure if he made Buffalo, but since they are going to be utterly terrible this year he may not look out of place there.
Brashear was decent. Without fighter a fourth liner/AHLer.

Quote:
But hey, aren't you glad that Kessel had his buddies come and fight on his behalf? How else do you stand up to a 6'8" guy? I don't think Kessel playing Paul Bunyan would have gone over well if he cracks Scott's ankle right?

But if a guy like Scott isn't in the NHL it doesn't mean fighting is gone. It still has a purpose. One of the better fighters in the NHL - Clarkson - is now Kessel's teammate and one thing the Leafs haven't been in the last couple of years are pushovers.
No fighting, Scott incident doesn't happen.

Quote:
Lastly, what is it about our unique game that makes you want to change so much of it? This is the fastest game without an engine. On any given shift you can see an end to end rush, a glove save, a hard hit a top corner shot and two honest guys settling the game down with a fight. How much more diverse of a game is there? This is why I could care less about hockey needing to be "like other sports".
Changint fighting is really the only thing I want to change about hockey.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
You're kidding right? Well, Ace Bailey, Ted Green, Drew Stafford (AHL) are guys I can name off the top of my head who almost DIED from the stick being used as a weapon, let alone concussions.
I knew about those incidents. Two of those happened decades ago. The guy that hit Stafford got a huge suspension. Stick swinging incidents are not part of the game. Fighting still is. Parros tonight is a good example of where a fight can turn ugly. No intent but ugly consequences.

Quote:
Koivu, Yzerman, Berard, MacInnis, Pronger, Parent are players whose careers were either threatened or finished because of a high stick. And that wasn't even used as a weapon.
Visors would help all of those incidents.

Quote:
But I'll ask you this since no one has answered it yet. How many times have careers ended because of a fight? Nick Kypreos is the one I can think of and to be honest if there are more the list is so small it will pale in comparison to the careers ended from elbows, hits from behind, shots, sticks, etc.
Fights? Lots.

canucksfan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2013, 09:08 PM
  #248
M Gaz
Goalie Killer
 
M Gaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Long Island
Country: United States
Posts: 4,303
vCash: 2946
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iusedtoloveher View Post
I've got news for you, when you crash into other grown men for a living, your brain is going to get rattled from time to time. If you guys were really worried about player safety you'd be talking about getting rid of body checks instead of fights. Body checks happen all of the time, fights do not.
Bingo. The only way to eliminate concussions is to take hitting out of the game, and that would be the end of the NHL as we know it.

M Gaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2013, 09:11 PM
  #249
canucksfan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 32,340
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
leagues such as the chl and nhl seem to follow what i believe as they are putting in place rules to limit fighting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
i'm sure there are mite leagues you could follow. The issue is the nhl , not the c the o or the a. The n. You know the one with fighting since day one.

Are the goalposts still heavy after you keep moving them so often.

If i really really don't like the kings and absolutely don't think they deserved to have won the cup, can i say they never won a cup? I can if i don't mind looking crazy ( here's a hint, that hypothetical is a mirror for you).
Bolded.

The fighting in the CHL will impact the number of fights in the NHL. Most of the fighters come from the CHL.

canucksfan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2013, 09:22 PM
  #250
loudi94
Master of my Domain
 
loudi94's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,866
vCash: 500
If Parros would have died on the ice tonight, fighting would have been done in the NHL. No one disputes that it is likely to happen some day and then going forward, no insurance company in the world will take that liability on. NHL will have to concede.

loudi94 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:39 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. @2017 All Rights Reserved.