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End of fighting in the NHL?

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Old
09-21-2013, 10:24 PM
  #51
adsfan
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Originally Posted by mindfly View Post
How come UFC is so popular then?
Americans loves violence.
I love hockey. The only time I watched the UFC (on YouTube) was because a former player from my favorite hockey team was fighting.

I am also a baseball fan. Not much violence there, but they had 66 million fans so far this season. I think your opinion is off.

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09-21-2013, 10:54 PM
  #52
Banana Sandwiches
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Fighting has always been a good way for people to let their anger and aggression out during a game. If you get rid of fighting, you're going to see more stickwork and more dirty hits because no one will be able to do anything about it.

If two guys are going at each other for an entire game, would you rather see them fight or have one of the players tomahawk the other over the head with his stick? Hockey is way too aggressive to not have an outlet like fighting to keep everything slightly calmer.

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09-21-2013, 11:00 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post
I... still don't know what you mean here, tbh. I'm not saying that killing a dog is acceptable. I can't figure out how you think that's what I meant. Sorry if I'm not 100% clear, english is not my first language.

Organizing dogs fights is unacceptable. Our laws say so. You go to prison if you do. I'm fine with it.

My point is, why organizing kids fights should be OK, then?

Oh, ok things make more sense. Its a different situation. Hockey players aren't forced to fight, they have a mind of their own and if they choose to take that path then so be it. I don't think any coach or parent that is out there is forcing children to fight. Coaches may tell them their role would be greater if they did fight, but that's about it. We all have free will.

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09-21-2013, 11:05 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adsfan View Post
I love hockey. The only time I watched the UFC (on YouTube) was because a former player from my favorite hockey team was fighting.

I am also a baseball fan. Not much violence there, but they had 66 million fans so far this season. I think your opinion is off.
Americans love football more than baseball and football is as violent if not more violent than hockey. You want to talk about no respect, football players lay and wait to make that big hit. They want to be on that highlight reel and Hell, they put bounties on other players.

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09-21-2013, 11:51 PM
  #55
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and to further my last post; check the clip of the brodie/kaleta fight tonight. How do you think that play would have gone down if fighting weren't allowed? Well Kaleta would have trolled the leafs captain all day. So whats worse? Kaleta being a rat or the gloves getting dropped?

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09-21-2013, 11:58 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mindfly View Post
How come UFC is so popular then?
Americans loves violence.
Americans love violence in certain places... "civil" society deplores it. Its a cultural thing, not a number of eyes thing. To the blue-collar guys they see it is "our guys protecting our/themselves"... the white-color guys see it as "needless brutality which can be handled with proper behavior management".

The problem is that UFC is relegated to the view of certain types of people and away from the "nice" busybodies of our society. Fact is, the NHL can gain more value from emotion driven fights than not. Of course, you deal with manager types in charge who value pushovers (typically) more than people who will stand up to them or others then you can understand why they see fighting as bad... its not their world and its a risk to them... their reality is based more on agreed standards.

I hate to get like that, I think fights in hockey are usually pointless but I see the value in them and I see the value of rough tactics and taking things back to the other guys. The ref isnt going to give you that patch of ice.

----

I think the NHL thinks they'll cutely try to eliminate fighting by trying to force the players into a form of a prisoners dilemma knowing if they toss the helmet and fight and the other guy doesn't then you take a penalty.

Get off of it already. Get rid of this helmet penalty crap, get rid of the instigator, let the players measure the value of themselves and their skulls. If its about the skulls up the penalty for fighting (to like 10 min) and say its for their skulls/concussions. Making it about the "helmets" is a farce. Its basically an end around saying that you're not trying to ban fighting... horse crud. You are specifically engineering things to bring down fighting.

---

As it is, and as it is being said... fighting is sort of finding its own way out. The players in the modern era are more mature. Maybe they need to be because of the level of athlete you need to be as the player pool is much deeper.

I'd rather see it leave the game of its own volition than an attempt to squeeze it out of the game. To me that'll lead to the honest answer as to whether or not it is part of the game.

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Old
09-22-2013, 12:00 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
How come boxing is basically dead?
Corruption and inconsistency. No outsider can watch a fight and know what's going on especially with the working of the rules with the clutching and biting and the rest.

edit: Also, don't confuse disagreement with the lack of an open mind. Such assumptions means that people of good intention can't disagree with you until they accept your premise. Its passive aggressive. The whole "you don't know what complete abolition will be like until we do it" mantra is sad because we know anybody who uses those types of tropes has no intention on giving up on that abolition. Scratch an "open-minded" person and you often find a goal-oriented uptopian. The goal is decided and its certainly whatever isn't the current state of nature.

I'm a fan of the college game, and I've seen the problems that can exist when you don't let fighting occur. Cheap tactics don't get called to task because the ref doesn't want to have to police the constant marginal behavior (rule bending... rule "line" testing) of those employing said tactics. Of course, this type of behavior has washed out in recent years so fighting would, functionally, be unnecessary.

---

I think the people who play hockey now are of much better sanity and moral judgement stock than those who played in the 70s and 80s.... and much have this has been because of teaching and thinning out those who pose problems.


Last edited by Patman: 09-22-2013 at 12:10 AM.
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09-22-2013, 12:06 AM
  #58
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Visors aren't an issue really, I'm all for making players safer. As far as having to keep your helmet on for fighting, that definitely seems stupid to me. I can sort of see the logic behind it, but at the same time it's still a idiotic move.

Also the jersey tuck rule...

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09-22-2013, 09:44 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
Yeah the way too many which did proportionately includes the overwhelming number of players, who I can assure you are way more aware of the consequences of fighting.

I don't like icing, no one ever scores off of icing calls, so let's remove icing. Hell get rid of offsides as well, play non stop with cherry pickers and the scoring will go up an it might be palatable to these elusive fans.

If you don't like fighting, thats fine. But removing it changes the nature of the game, and does so for the worse. How many people in the stands turn their backs on a dustup? Not many.. The fans in the arena want it, the players overwhelmingly want it, but we should dump it because of a vocal minority who believe they should be catered to. Thanks but no.
Icing and offside are necessary to preserve the essence of the game. Icing prevents hockey's version of basketball's old four corners offense from taking hold. Four corners involved a team taking the lead, then passing the ball around for minutes at a time (not even attempting to score) because the lack of a shot clock made it possible. Icing is there to prevent a team from gaining the lead, then mindlessly flinging the puck down the ice upon gaining possession.

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09-22-2013, 09:46 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Banana Sandwiches View Post
Fighting has always been a good way for people to let their anger and aggression out during a game. If you get rid of fighting, you're going to see more stickwork and more dirty hits because no one will be able to do anything about it.

If two guys are going at each other for an entire game, would you rather see them fight or have one of the players tomahawk the other over the head with his stick? Hockey is way too aggressive to not have an outlet like fighting to keep everything slightly calmer.
Funny thing is that in a football game, even in blowouts, you don't see guys trying to "settle scores" or "send a message". There's no way to dispute that football is an incredibly aggressive and emotional game, so why isn't there more dirty stuff in certain situations where it's accepted and expected in hockey?

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09-22-2013, 11:13 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by mygameworn View Post
Oh, ok things make more sense. Its a different situation. Hockey players aren't forced to fight, they have a mind of their own and if they choose to take that path then so be it. I don't think any coach or parent that is out there is forcing children to fight. Coaches may tell them their role would be greater if they did fight, but that's about it. We all have free will.
Not exactly forcing them. But when you tell a 17yo. kid that he has no future in hockey unless he starts to fight, you are basically using your authority to strongly suggest the kid to do something detrimental to him. He can decline, of course, but the coaches, managers and parents all have a certain influence and legally, this can be recognized (incitement). Especially when the kids are under 18.

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09-22-2013, 11:24 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post

Move on, people, a more 'civilized' and clean game would definitely attract more fans.

You have no objective evidence to support that statement.

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09-22-2013, 11:26 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
How come boxing is basically dead?
Because of corruption, lack of competition, and the rise of MMA.

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09-22-2013, 11:28 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post
In juniors, I would be even more strict. If you encourage minors to fight and provide the facilities to do so and even benefit from it, you should go to prison, period.




Quote:
Michael Vick got almost 2 years because he was involved in organizing dog fights, FFS. Why is it OK to do the same with 16-17 yo. kids?

That you cannot see the difference between dog fighting and killing animals and a couple of guys chucking knuckles for a minute is astounding.

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09-22-2013, 11:30 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
The NFL was regarded as the ultimate haven for criminals and meatheads; they made changes within the game early on to change public perception.

You might want to look up the number of NFL players arrested just since the last Super Bowl.

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09-22-2013, 11:32 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post
I... still don't know what you mean here, tbh. I'm not saying that killing a dog is acceptable. I can't figure out how you think that's what I meant. Sorry if I'm not 100% clear, english is not my first language.

Organizing dogs fights is unacceptable. Our laws say so. You go to prison if you do. I'm fine with it.

My point is, why organizing kids fights should be OK, then?

Nobody is 'organizing' kids fights.

In addition, youth boxing is perfectly legal all over North America. Should it be outlawed too?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Patman View Post
Americans love violence in certain places... "civil" society deplores it. Its a cultural thing, not a number of eyes thing. To the blue-collar guys they see it is "our guys protecting our/themselves"... the white-color guys see it as "needless brutality which can be handled with proper behavior management".
You can't stereotype like that.

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09-22-2013, 12:43 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colchar View Post
You might want to look up the number of NFL players arrested just since the last Super Bowl.
To add to it, how many NHL players or former NHL players have been spent more than 30 days in prison? Mike Danton is the only one I can recall and possibly Probert (without looking it up). There's been more owners go to jail than players. The NFL has had 3 players charged with murder in the last 20 years (OJ, Ray Lewis, and Hernandez), 4 if you count Vick's dog killing.


And for the earlier post saying people orchestrating fights belong in prison; it's not something the league allows. Mark Hunter was suspended for an entire season for sending a player on to fight. If we're going to apply the letter of the law to hockey games; consentual fighting is legal in itself providing it does not break any other laws (disturbing the peace, destruction of property etc.) perhaps every slashing, high sticking, cross checking penalty should result in a criminal charge for assault with a weapon?

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09-22-2013, 03:04 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by colchar View Post
Nobody is 'organizing' kids fights.

In addition, youth boxing is perfectly legal all over North America. Should it be outlawed too?
1-To a certain extent, yes, junior leagues are organizing kids fights and benefiting from it. Not saying it's the only thing they do, of course. But there is a system and culture in place where adults do strongly pressure kids to fight each other in very dangerous conditions. Which brings me to...

2-Yes, youth boxing exists. With proper equipment in order to reduce the risk of injury and brain damage. You know, like wearing gloves and not fighting on a slippery and hard surface.

The medical evidence is overwhelming. With today's players (size, speed) and equipment, hits to the head (fighting consists mostly of hits to the head, btw) are too dangerous and cause permanent brain damage.

Look at what happened in the NFL. The league had to give in and pay 750M$ because they neglected to properly act on that matter. The same will happen in the NHL (and juniors).

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09-22-2013, 03:14 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post
1-To a certain extent, yes, junior leagues are organizing kids fights and benefiting from it. Not saying it's the only thing they do, of course. But there is a system and culture in place where adults do strongly pressure kids to fight each other in very dangerous conditions. Which brings me to...

2-Yes, youth boxing exists. With proper equipment in order to reduce the risk of injury and brain damage. You know, like wearing gloves and not fighting on a slippery and hard surface.

The medical evidence is overwhelming. With today's players (size, speed) and equipment, hits to the head (fighting consists mostly of hits to the head, btw) are too dangerous and cause permanent brain damage.

Look at what happened in the NFL. The league had to give in and pay 750M$ because they neglected to properly act on that matter. The same will happen in the NHL (and juniors).
Kids play behind shields or cages, when your say kids you mean 16 and 17 year olds?

And the link between brain injuries and fights is not as clear as you imply. There are tons of guys who threw them a lot in the day who show no problems currently. CTE can still only be diagnosed post mortem although the probes for tau that were described this week out a Japan at least give us the hope of real time diagnosis and therapeutic responses.

You argument also neglects the fact that the majority of traumatic head injuries come from some aspect of the game other than fighting. If player safety is your real primary concern ( and you are not disingenuously advocating this to simply get rid of fighting) why don't you go after the aspects that are significantly more likely to be injurious ( like checking)?

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09-22-2013, 03:30 PM
  #70
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To add to it, how many NHL players or former NHL players have been spent more than 30 days in prison? Mike Danton is the only one I can recall and possibly Probert (without looking it up). There's been more owners go to jail than players. The NFL has had 3 players charged with murder in the last 20 years (OJ, Ray Lewis, and Hernandez), 4 if you count Vick's dog killing.
The number is artificially skewed due to the number of active NFL players and the number of teams, which has always been larger than the NHL. In the case of roster sizes, substantially larger.

If we're talking "former players" as well, then the NHL list gets longer for various reasons. Billy Tibbetts is a former NHL player. Jere Karalahti is a former NHL player. Meanwhile, murder charges against Ray Lewis were dismissed entirely, while Dany Heatley and Craig MacTavish were both found to be criminally responsible for the death of another.

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09-22-2013, 04:33 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Icing and offside are necessary to preserve the essence of the game. Icing prevents hockey's version of basketball's old four corners offense from taking hold. Four corners involved a team taking the lead, then passing the ball around for minutes at a time (not even attempting to score) because the lack of a shot clock made it possible. Icing is there to prevent a team from gaining the lead, then mindlessly flinging the puck down the ice upon gaining possession.
I'm sorry, who appointed you to be the arbitrer of what constitutes " the essence" of the game? As long as NHL hockey has been played, there have been fights. Some years more, some years less NO years with none.

Removing fighting fundamentally changes the nature of the game. That's not MY opinion, its the opinion of the overwhelming number of players past and present. So we should dump their opinion and adopt yours on what basis precisely? Because YOU might like it more? Again, thanks but no.

And to preemptively rebut the assertion that I'm some knuckle dragging mouth breather, my support for fighting ends the second the players don't want it because I'm not so presumptuous to think that the players are under any obligation to make the game more personally palatable. It appears you don't share this reservation.

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09-22-2013, 04:35 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
Kids play behind shields or cages, when your say kids you mean 16 and 17 year olds?

And the link between brain injuries and fights is not as clear as you imply. There are tons of guys who threw them a lot in the day who show no problems currently. CTE can still only be diagnosed post mortem although the probes for tau that were described this week out a Japan at least give us the hope of real time diagnosis and therapeutic responses.

You argument also neglects the fact that the majority of traumatic head injuries come from some aspect of the game other than fighting. If player safety is your real primary concern ( and you are not disingenuously advocating this to simply get rid of fighting) why don't you go after the aspects that are significantly more likely to be injurious ( like checking)?
I totally agree that better diagnostic tools will help in the future.

Checking could be made safer without fundamentally changing the nature of the sport. Again, they made significant adjustments to that effect in the NFL. The NHL and the hockey world in general is just incredibly conservative.

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09-22-2013, 04:56 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post
I totally agree that better diagnostic tools will help in the future.

Checking could be made safer without fundamentally changing the nature of the sport. Again, they made significant adjustments to that effect in the NFL. The NHL and the hockey world in general is just incredibly conservative.
Again, I'm not speaking to you directly but if player safety is the real driving force to get rid of fighting, then go after checking, make the NHL stand for no hitting league. If you say that removing ( not modifying, removing) hitting fundamentally changes the nature of the game, you are doing nothing but advocating the exact same things the players have said.

I'm a little confused, who's opinion carries more weight ? The guys who are at risk and have to live with the consequences of their choices, or guys behind keyboards whose sole intent is to make the game more personally palatable irrespective of the cost? If its the latter, at least be honest about it, a characteristic I find in short supply within the anti fighting crowd ( again,not you personally)

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09-22-2013, 05:14 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
Again, I'm not speaking to you directly but if player safety is the real driving force to get rid of fighting, then go after checking, make the NHL stand for no hitting league. If you say that removing ( not modifying, removing) hitting fundamentally changes the nature of the game, you are doing nothing but advocating the exact same things the players have said.
This argument is absurd. A lot of contact sports and fighting sports are played everywhere in the world and, most of the time, the governing bodies try to make sure it's done in a safe way.

Nobody is saying that hitting should be removed from hockey. It would definitely change the nature of the game.

Fighting, on the other hand, brings absolutely nothing. Unlike hitting, it happens when the play is stopped. If I want to win a game, I care about what happen when the game is on, you know...

And we see this in many different ways.

-Playoffs: fast, intense, physical, emotional... yet no fighting.
-International: some games, especially between Canada and USA, are also extremely intense, physical and a lot of fun to watch. No fighting there either.

Basically, what the fighting advocates say is that playoffs hockey is not real hockey because it lacks a fundamental element...

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09-22-2013, 05:33 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post

Fighting, on the other hand, brings absolutely nothing. Unlike hitting, it happens when the play is stopped. If I want to win a game, I care about what happen when the game is on, you know...

And we see this in many different ways.

-Playoffs: fast, intense, physical, emotional... yet no fighting.
-International: some games, especially between Canada and USA, are also extremely intense, physical and a lot of fun to watch. No fighting there either.

Basically, what the fighting advocates say is that playoffs hockey is not real hockey because it lacks a fundamental element...

you know who disagrees with you that fighting brings nothing to the game? Pretty much every single current player AND past players. You couldn't get more unanimous with questions " kicking puppies, good or bad?"

And none of this changes the fact that althought graphic, more head Injuries are caused by something other than fighting ( like hits to the head). if ( and it is a big if) you are really concerned about player safety then go after the most injurious practices. Don't take the least injurious and pretend it is out of concern for player safety. And if you can't separate hitting from the NHL, how can you surgically remove fighting which has been around,uninterrupted, since day one.

You dont realize it but what you are suggesting is that we should get rid of slap shots to prevent more mccleary's. Its nonsense. Guys who fight do so willingly, guys rarely get jumped sans consent. Guys get hurt all the time laying the body down in front of shots. When your concern for player safety extends ONLY to fighting and ignores all of the other things that are more injurious, then your "concern" for player safety seems,at best, disingenuous.

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