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End of fighting in the NHL?

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Old
09-25-2013, 01:57 PM
  #126
bruinsfan001
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Originally Posted by Iusedtoloveher View Post
First post, and I wanted to weigh in on this.

For the people who are for less fighting, what role does entertainment value play in fighting's role in hockey? As I'm posting, my favorite hockey team is playing, but there's also Monday Night Football on. When I first got into watching hockey in the early 90s, there would be no question that I was watching hockey. These days though, it's football and it's not even close. I still watch hockey, but the sport has been watered down so much that I no longer have to see every game the way I used to.

Also, part of the popularity that football has in the United States is due to its violent nature. Yes, they've taken certain elements out of the game, but most of the players on the football field have a violent interaction with an opponent on every play. Football's popularity, as well as the popularity of upcoming sports like the UFC, show us that violence sells. The NHL is going the wrong way IMO, and if they continue to do so, they'll lose more fans, myself included.
I'm from the states and ironically I've done the opposite. Now all I watch is hockey, lacrosse, and the occasional college football game. Used to be a huge football fan now I don't even watch it because honestly think its boring. Too many stoppages/timeouts, too much advertising, players are overpaid, players don't play with heart like in college, too few games in a season, too much over celebration, I could go on and on. The NFL is everything I don't want the NHL to become and I hope they try and stay as far away from that model as much as possible.

Hockey will always have fighting, its in the sports nature. The only way you get rid of fighting is to take away the hitting and the games speed, but that will never happen and to be honest I don't want it to. Having said that I would even argue hockey is more violent than football, simply because football players don't carry the same speed and momentum that a moving body carries on a frictionless surface.

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09-25-2013, 04:02 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by bruinsfan001 View Post
I'm from the states and ironically I've done the opposite. Now all I watch is hockey, lacrosse, and the occasional college football game. Used to be a huge football fan now I don't even watch it because honestly think its boring. Too many stoppages/timeouts, too much advertising, players are overpaid, players don't play with heart like in college, too few games in a season, too much over celebration, I could go on and on. The NFL is everything I don't want the NHL to become and I hope they try and stay as far away from that model as much as possible.
I understand what you're saying about football. I think they've done a lot to take some of the violence out of the game, and while I don't like it, football still holds my attention. The thing that's frustrating about hockey is that I still want to like it the way I did back in the early to mid 90s, I'm just not as entertained by it though.

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09-25-2013, 04:34 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
At some point there won't be fighting in the NHL. What will happen is someone is going to get severly injured, brain damage etc. or someone will die. The NHL will then make a fight a game misconduct or suspendable. You also have to take into account that suicides of recent players.
Doubt it will happen any time soon. The numbers show this:

http://dropyourgloves.com/Fights/Fig...GameChart.aspx

Last season there were 0.52 fights per game. That is higher than at any time in the 1960s and higher than some seasons in the 1970s. Last year Toronto - a playoff team - led the NHL in fights. Big deal right? 2nd place was Boston with 40, who were the Cup finalists. It is true Chicago finished 26th overall with 17 fights, but when looking at the list from last year it is so spread out as to who was the elite team that it seems rather random.

I doubt we'll ever hit the peak of 1.3 fights per game the way the NHL did in 1988, but since 2005 the 2013 season is not the highest nor the lowest in total fights. There was a big spike during the 2007-'08 season after Anaheim won its Cup but since 2005 there hasn't been any less than 0.41 fights per game (2005-'06) and anymore than 0.65 (2008-'09).

The only times fights have been at over 1.0 per game was between 1984-'92. While we associate the 1970s with bench clearing brawls, the truth is fights per game hovered around 0.50 most of the decade. Similar to today.

I don't see fighting going anywhere. It is in the game we love. Period.

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09-25-2013, 04:50 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Doubt it will happen any time soon. The numbers show this:

http://dropyourgloves.com/Fights/Fig...GameChart.aspx

Last season there were 0.52 fights per game. That is higher than at any time in the 1960s and higher than some seasons in the 1970s. Last year Toronto - a playoff team - led the NHL in fights. Big deal right? 2nd place was Boston with 40, who were the Cup finalists. It is true Chicago finished 26th overall with 17 fights, but when looking at the list from last year it is so spread out as to who was the elite team that it seems rather random.
I doubt it will happen soon but it will eventually happen IMO. As far as the numbers go what that shows is a decrease in fighting and it is a trend that been happening for about 2 decades now. In 91-92 The Stanley Cup champs had 33 fights, next year was Montreal. What that shows is the number of fights a team has is meaningless to their success.

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I doubt we'll ever hit the peak of 1.3 fights per game the way the NHL did in 1988, but since 2005 the 2013 season is not the highest nor the lowest in total fights. There was a big spike during the 2007-'08 season after Anaheim won its Cup but since 2005 there hasn't been any less than 0.41 fights per game (2005-'06) and anymore than 0.65 (2008-'09).
Still a decline from its peak. I think we will see a small decline in the coming years as well.

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The only times fights have been at over 1.0 per game was between 1984-'92. While we associate the 1970s with bench clearing brawls, the truth is fights per game hovered around 0.50 most of the decade. Similar to today.

I don't see fighting going anywhere. It is in the game we love. Period.
I like fighting a lot in hockey. What worries me is player safety. Concussions are a problem. They can cause long term side affects. Players are bigger and they train to fight in some cases. This never used to happen. Fighting on ice and with skates can also lead to career ending injuires.

We are starting to see attempts by the CHL to drastically limit fighting. The players coming up with not be exposed to fighting as much as they once were. As a result, we will have less players that are used to fighting which will also lead to a decrease in fighting.

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09-25-2013, 07:04 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
Still a decline from its peak. I think we will see a small decline in the coming years as well.

I like fighting a lot in hockey. What worries me is player safety. Concussions are a problem. They can cause long term side affects. Players are bigger and they train to fight in some cases. This never used to happen. Fighting on ice and with skates can also lead to career ending injuires.

We are starting to see attempts by the CHL to drastically limit fighting. The players coming up with not be exposed to fighting as much as they once were. As a result, we will have less players that are used to fighting which will also lead to a decrease in fighting.
I look at it this way. For the better part of the history of the NHL fighting has been around 0.50 fights per game. We saw a spike in the 1980s and that can be attributed to a lot of expansion at once (although the peak was 1988) as well as a league that was 75-80% Canadian and maybe 5-10% European. The levels of fighting we see now are not very different from most of the time in NHL history. There will be peaks and valleys but it'll be around long after we're gone from this earth just like it was around long before we were a twinkle in our father's eyes.

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09-25-2013, 07:06 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Iusedtoloveher View Post
I understand what you're saying about football. I think they've done a lot to take some of the violence out of the game, and while I don't like it, football still holds my attention. The thing that's frustrating about hockey is that I still want to like it the way I did back in the early to mid 90s, I'm just not as entertained by it though.
The sport is always going to be evolving. I'm sure things like equipment will likely continue to change over time I think most people will agree helmets need improving for example. The game itself though is still very much the same. Every team has a different identity, you just have to find a team you like and can root for.

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09-25-2013, 08:33 PM
  #132
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Fighting up? I think this year if a KO'd fighter's head thwacks the ice and he croaks, what's criminal is that the league will say they never saw it coming. Yes Hockey is a contact sport no it's not a combat sport.

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09-25-2013, 09:17 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by bruinsfan001 View Post
The sport is always going to be evolving. I'm sure things like equipment will likely continue to change over time I think most people will agree helmets need improving for example. The game itself though is still very much the same. Every team has a different identity, you just have to find a team you like and can root for.
Yes, all sports evolve, but that doesn't mean that they evolve for the better, at least from the perspective of some fans.

Oh, make no mistake about it, I'm a Rangers fan. I'll never root for another NHL team. I'll still watch games, and look at box scores when I don't, but I don't HAVE to watch games the same way I used to. It could be attributed to factors that are related to me and me alone, but I think the way the game has changed has something to do with it.

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09-26-2013, 12:33 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post

But remember, Brashear embarassed McSorley after that fight. He "dusted" his hands, which is only asking to be approached later in the game. It is obvious watching that play that McSorley wasn't trying to club him in the head. He swung high, too high, but it glanced off of Brashear's shoulder and into his head. The intentions weren't there to club him.
Wow! You're actually trying to defend McSorley.

That's it for me. Ciao!

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09-26-2013, 12:56 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I look at it this way. For the better part of the history of the NHL fighting has been around 0.50 fights per game. We saw a spike in the 1980s and that can be attributed to a lot of expansion at once (although the peak was 1988) as well as a league that was 75-80% Canadian and maybe 5-10% European. The levels of fighting we see now are not very different from most of the time in NHL history. There will be peaks and valleys but it'll be around long after we're gone from this earth just like it was around long before we were a twinkle in our father's eyes.
Bench clearing brawls happened a decent amount. Due to the rules, leaving the bench, there hasn't been a bench clearing brawl in over two decades.

When it comes to fighting, the league could easily institute a rule that would eliminate fighting. Will they? Doubtful until someone either dies or gets seriously injured. The CHL, particularly the OHL, has put in place rules to decrease fighting.

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The commissioner also suggested that while players, particularly enforcers like Ty Bilcke haven't come out in full support of the ban, that players are embracing the fact that they can be work on their hockey skills and be appreciated for doing things other than fighting. Fighting in the OHL dropped by 24% this past season to just 0.70 per game, which is very close to the QMJHL's 0.67 from last season. Fighting in the junior game has been decreasing steadily for 15 years, and the hockey community's newfound appreciation for the dangers of concussions could lead to a further drop this next season
http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/jrh...171809220.html

As these players come into the NHL they won't be accustomed to fighting. Therefore, there will be less players fighting in the NHL.

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09-26-2013, 12:45 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
Bench clearing brawls happened a decent amount. Due to the rules, leaving the bench, there hasn't been a bench clearing brawl in over two decades.

When it comes to fighting, the league could easily institute a rule that would eliminate fighting. Will they? Doubtful until someone either dies or gets seriously injured. The CHL, particularly the OHL, has put in place rules to decrease fighting.
In the 1970s it got a little silly with bench clearing brawls. The "third man in" rule happened in 1978. I guess we can blame the Broad Street Bullies on that one. But fighting still remained in the game. Fighting still happens in junior hockey and likely always will. David Branch who makes no apologies about his not-so-hidden agenda to rid fighting forever can't be alive forever, and hopefully won't be running the CHL much longer. But once these guys get to the NHL, they'll still fight. It isn't as if it is banned in junior hockey.

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Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post
Wow! You're actually trying to defend McSorley.

That's it for me. Ciao!
Not defending what he did, because it was careless and Marty should have known better. I am defending his intentions. It is clear he didn't go up to Brashear and intentionally club him in the head. Honestly, watch the video. McSorley probably wanted to give him a whack up high on the shoulder to get his attention so that they could fight again. You see this when he is getting prepared for Brashear after the stick is swung at him. His intention was to fight him and get his attention. What he did was wrong, was he intended to do wasn't. Knowing the honourable player McSorley was in his career, it is hard to believe he would have just gone Paul Bunyan on a man.

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09-26-2013, 01:25 PM
  #137
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Hey, I know this is neither here nor there, but I was just re-watching the McSorley incident and notice for the very first time that there was a second puck on the ice when it happened.

Has anybody ever noticed that before? I can't believe I've missed it after watching that replay dozens of times over the years.



The best view is at 5:00, you can see it clear as day on the replay. At 2:55, during the live action shot, you can see it coast right down the middle of the ice after the cheap shot.

I will never again be able to watch that replay and not focus on that extra puck

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09-26-2013, 01:56 PM
  #138
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That's it for me. Ciao!
Really ? hope u keep your word. don't let the door hit you in the azz on your way out.

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09-26-2013, 02:40 PM
  #139
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if you remove the diving, cheap play, and trolling, fighting will go down. Remove fighting first and the other garbage goes up.
I would argue that about 95% of fighting in the league now has nothing to do with cheap shots, so I don't see how you can argue this.

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09-26-2013, 02:45 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
In the 1970s it got a little silly with bench clearing brawls. The "third man in" rule happened in 1978. I guess we can blame the Broad Street Bullies on that one. But fighting still remained in the game. Fighting still happens in junior hockey and likely always will. David Branch who makes no apologies about his not-so-hidden agenda to rid fighting forever can't be alive forever, and hopefully won't be running the CHL much longer. But once these guys get to the NHL, they'll still fight. It isn't as if it is banned in junior hockey.
Fighting remained because there were no rules to curb it. Fighting has drastically decreased in junior and will continue to.

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09-26-2013, 05:51 PM
  #141
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Fighting remained because there were no rules to curb it. Fighting has drastically decreased in junior and will continue to.
But it hasn't in the NHL. It has remained rather stagnant for over half a century give or take 10 years. There is always going to be a place in the game for it, even in junior hockey.

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09-26-2013, 08:22 PM
  #142
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Fighting will eventually be eliminated in the the NHL because the NHL will eventually move to mandatory cages over shields. There may be more fights now in numbers but they are often meaningless. Instead of having 10 or 15 players on a team that would fight we are now down to 2 or 3. The fights are no longer spontaneous that come out of the action but two goons dropping their gloves at the puck drop trying to keep their fellow goon on his team vs. driving a truck.

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09-27-2013, 01:14 AM
  #143
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But it hasn't in the NHL. It has remained rather stagnant for over half a century give or take 10 years. There is always going to be a place in the game for it, even in junior hockey.
It hasn't happened because the rules haven't been put into place yet. The removal of the helmets is one that will decease fighting, not a lot but it will.

The NHL does not like having goons and will try to limit their place which will also decrease fighting.

The decrease of fighting in junior will have an impact. Fewer players are fighting so when they make it to the NHL they won't be used to fighting. Look at the Europeans. Canadians fight a lot more because they were used to it.

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09-27-2013, 09:00 AM
  #144
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It hasn't happened because the rules haven't been put into place yet. The removal of the helmets is one that will decease fighting, not a lot but it will.

The NHL does not like having goons and will try to limit their place which will also decrease fighting.

The decrease of fighting in junior will have an impact. Fewer players are fighting so when they make it to the NHL they won't be used to fighting. Look at the Europeans. Canadians fight a lot more because they were used to it.

what no one is addressing is that there are guys who drop the gloves because GM's and coaches thinks having these guys on the team helps wins games. I doubt that all of the GM's are doing it out of the goodness of their hearts so that the heavy's dont have to go back to driving trucks.

I understand that there are times when there will be more fights, times when there will be less, but it's always going to be around. And can people who want to harp about " staged" fights finally define the term ? If I'm at home and the visiting team starts their fourth line and I send mine out to match ( the torts/deboer incident) is that staged ? Was the kassian/moen fight "staged" after moen went after classain the night before ?

if you remove fighting, instead of every team having a heavy an a middle or a couple of middles, every team is going to have a kalettan and steve ott, or more matt cooke's. Yeah, that's going to be great for the game.

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09-27-2013, 01:33 PM
  #145
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I would argue that about 95% of fighting in the league now has nothing to do with cheap shots, so I don't see how you can argue this.
More than 50% of the fights are done in retaliation for a legal hit.

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09-27-2013, 01:41 PM
  #146
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More than 50% of the fights are done in retaliation for a legal hit.
Cant upvote, quote, clap for, give karma or cheer enough for this very statement.

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09-27-2013, 01:54 PM
  #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
It hasn't happened because the rules haven't been put into place yet. The removal of the helmets is one that will decease fighting, not a lot but it will.

The NHL does not like having goons and will try to limit their place which will also decrease fighting.

The decrease of fighting in junior will have an impact. Fewer players are fighting so when they make it to the NHL they won't be used to fighting. Look at the Europeans. Canadians fight a lot more because they were used to it.

That logic won't hold in the NHL. The only way to stick up for yourself is to fight. Just ask Datsyuk. Its human nature. Speaking of Detroit, watch them go out and pick up a heavyweight sometime this season. Now that their in the east, they're going to need one.

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09-27-2013, 01:57 PM
  #148
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what no one is addressing is that there are guys who drop the gloves because GM's and coaches thinks having these guys on the team helps wins games. I doubt that all of the GM's are doing it out of the goodness of their hearts so that the heavy's dont have to go back to driving trucks.

I understand that there are times when there will be more fights, times when there will be less, but it's always going to be around. And can people who want to harp about " staged" fights finally define the term ? If I'm at home and the visiting team starts their fourth line and I send mine out to match ( the torts/deboer incident) is that staged ? Was the kassian/moen fight "staged" after moen went after classain the night before ?

if you remove fighting, instead of every team having a heavy an a middle or a couple of middles, every team is going to have a kalettan and steve ott, or more matt cooke's. Yeah, that's going to be great for the game.
St-Pierre (5'9", 187 lbs) hit Corvo.
Neil goes after St-Pierre.

White and Moen goes after Neil.
St Pierre goes back to the bench.
Claesson came in.

Another case of retaliation after a hit that was judged legal by the referees.

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09-27-2013, 02:08 PM
  #149
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what no one is addressing is that there are guys who drop the gloves because GM's and coaches thinks having these guys on the team helps wins games. I doubt that all of the GM's are doing it out of the goodness of their hearts so that the heavy's dont have to go back to driving trucks.
There are some GMs like that. The Hawks won the cup with vert few fighting majors and last in hits I believe. They beat the toughest team in the league.

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I understand that there are times when there will be more fights, times when there will be less, but it's always going to be around. And can people who want to harp about " staged" fights finally define the term ? If I'm at home and the visiting team starts their fourth line and I send mine out to match ( the torts/deboer incident) is that staged ? Was the kassian/moen fight "staged" after moen went after classain the night before ?
I don't care about staged fights.

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if you remove fighting, instead of every team having a heavy an a middle or a couple of middles, every team is going to have a kalettan and steve ott, or more matt cooke's. Yeah, that's going to be great for the game.
Players like Ott etc., are already in the league.

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09-27-2013, 02:38 PM
  #150
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The Moen/Kassian fight have nothing to do with what happened with Claesson the game before just saying.

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