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End of fighting in the NHL?

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Old
09-27-2013, 04:38 PM
  #151
Big Phil
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Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
It hasn't happened because the rules haven't been put into place yet. The removal of the helmets is one that will decease fighting, not a lot but it will.

The NHL does not like having goons and will try to limit their place which will also decrease fighting.

The decrease of fighting in junior will have an impact. Fewer players are fighting so when they make it to the NHL they won't be used to fighting. Look at the Europeans. Canadians fight a lot more because they were used to it.
What was that stat, there are 0.70 fights per game in junior? Still more than the NHL on a per game basis in most seasons. It will still exist.

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Originally Posted by Mr Atoz View Post
Fighting will eventually be eliminated in the the NHL because the NHL will eventually move to mandatory cages over shields. There may be more fights now in numbers but they are often meaningless. Instead of having 10 or 15 players on a team that would fight we are now down to 2 or 3. The fights are no longer spontaneous that come out of the action but two goons dropping their gloves at the puck drop trying to keep their fellow goon on his team vs. driving a truck.
I can't see them ever moving to full faceshield.

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09-27-2013, 04:41 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
There are some GMs like that. The Hawks won the cup with vert few fighting majors and last in hits I believe. They beat the toughest team in the league.



I don't care about staged fights.



Players like Ott etc., are already in the league.

So one year makes a trend ? Who won before that ? The kings, while the mat not gfight much, could. Who won before that, the B's a team with a lot of guys who can throw.

I'm not saying that you HAVE to fight to win, but the habs are in the east and we FINALLY got around to adding some jam so that we dont get ragdolled. Does this mean we will win the cup ? Of course not but if we do go down, were goingdown swinging for the first time in a decade.

I hate Kaletta and dislike Steve ott, but if you are going to get reid of guys who fight its not just the sabres that are going to sign guys like them, other teams will go out looking for guys who are willing to go right up to the line ( and sometimes over it) and then think that they can simply refuse to engage and go back to the bench. The idea that getting rid of fighting is going to make the game more demure and " talent-rich" is, woefully misplaced.

Hockey is a game of speed and emotion. Guys are gonna have beefs with each other no matter what you do. You get rid of the safest least injurious way ti seek retributiuon/settle the score then you get what you deserve.

To the anti-fighting moaners, lest presume that you finally get your wish and fighting is completely removed from the game. Then you watch as some guy does a lucicesque run on your goalie. What do you do ? send him the stink eye and let the zebras handle it ? Write a tersely worded letter to his mom ? What ?

You know what, that guy is gonna get speared so hard he's going to look like a shish-kabob. Yeah, that's the way the league should be run. guys settling beefs at the end of a stick. Hooray !

Fighting is not a SOURCE of aggression on the ice, its a safety valve FOR the agression that will build up on the ice. Get rid of the safety valve at your own peril but when it blows up in your face, please spare us the excuses that you didnt know it would happen.

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09-27-2013, 04:45 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by 24get View Post
St-Pierre (5'9", 187 lbs) hit Corvo.
Neil goes after St-Pierre.

White and Moen goes after Neil.
St Pierre goes back to the bench.
Claesson came in.

Another case of retaliation after a hit that was judged legal by the referees.
Sometimes I wonder if people have even bothered to watch an actual game in the last 40 years. Alright, a fight after a clean hit is done to set a tone, not always for retaliation. You should know this being a fan of the game right? It happens, and those players have a second to react to the hit, while we have Youtube and over analysis of that hit over and over. See the difference?

Besides, let's not pretend fighting isn't hockey's way of intimidation. Beats getting a baseball thrown towards your head right? Look at certain fights that have happened. Look at last year with Ottawa/Montreal series. That whole line brawl. Not ONE Hab won his fight. Right then and there you knew the Habs were done like dinner. The initial Red Wings/Avs fight with McCarty? What we saw was McCarty pummelling Claude Lemieux, Larionov making Forsberg bleed and Vernon beating Roy in a fight. The Red Wings won two straight Cups after this, at the Avalanche's expense. We weren't in the dressing room, but coming from a team that often got criticized for being soft, this was something that probably bonded the Red Wings and certainly made us outsiders look at them differently.

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09-27-2013, 05:26 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
So one year makes a trend ? Who won before that ? The kings, while the mat not gfight much, could. Who won before that, the B's a team with a lot of guys who can throw.

I'm not saying that you HAVE to fight to win, but the habs are in the east and we FINALLY got around to adding some jam so that we dont get ragdolled. Does this mean we will win the cup ? Of course not but if we do go down, were goingdown swinging for the first time in a decade.

I hate Kaletta and dislike Steve ott, but if you are going to get reid of guys who fight its not just the sabres that are going to sign guys like them, other teams will go out looking for guys who are willing to go right up to the line ( and sometimes over it) and then think that they can simply refuse to engage and go back to the bench. The idea that getting rid of fighting is going to make the game more demure and " talent-rich" is, woefully misplaced.

Hockey is a game of speed and emotion. Guys are gonna have beefs with each other no matter what you do. You get rid of the safest least injurious way ti seek retributiuon/settle the score then you get what you deserve.

To the anti-fighting moaners, lest presume that you finally get your wish and fighting is completely removed from the game. Then you watch as some guy does a lucicesque run on your goalie. What do you do ? send him the stink eye and let the zebras handle it ? Write a tersely worded letter to his mom ? What ?

You know what, that guy is gonna get speared so hard he's going to look like a shish-kabob. Yeah, that's the way the league should be run. guys settling beefs at the end of a stick. Hooray !

Fighting is not a SOURCE of aggression on the ice, its a safety valve FOR the agression that will build up on the ice. Get rid of the safety valve at your own peril but when it blows up in your face, please spare us the excuses that you didnt know it would happen.
Chicago 09-10 21st in fights
Pens 23rd
Wings last
Ducks first
Canes 28th
Lightning 24th
Devils 18th

Besides the Bruins and Ducks every team that has won the cup has been in the bottom half in fights.

I am not anti fighting. My point is there is a very good chance that fighting will be eliminated or very close to it in the NHL at some point.

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Old
09-27-2013, 08:25 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
Chicago 09-10 21st in fights
Pens 23rd
Wings last
Ducks first
Canes 28th
Lightning 24th
Devils 18th

Besides the Bruins and Ducks every team that has won the cup has been in the bottom half in fights.

I am not anti fighting. My point is there is a very good chance that fighting will be eliminated or very close to it in the NHL at some point.
I'm sorry what has changed ? Are players dropping like flies now when they werent in years gone by ?

Do you actually think that you, and moaners of your ilk are actually the FIRST one's to lament fighting ? I've been hearing the same bellyaching my entire life.

Hockey has had fights for more than a century, I'd say that for at least the last 50 years there has been a chardonnay crowd who are so easily offended that they think it is their responsibility to tell everyone how the game should be. What has happened ? ZIP. This isnt a popularity contest and IF it were YOU DONT GET TO VOTE. 50 years ago the percentage of players that supported fighting was what 96%? Last year it was what ? 96% ? If that train of change is a commin, I'll be long dead before it rolls into the station.

Good luck in getting the players to abandon a system that they beleive makes them safer on the ice in order to sate that " icky feeling" you get when two uys square off face to face and drop the mittens. Perhaps you can join your entitled breatheren and tkink you can impose this change on the player by fiat, again good luck with that.

The fans want it, the players demand it, the GMs and owners at the very least tolerate it, but its all gonna change for some squeaky wheel who knows so much more about the game than all of those idiots.

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09-27-2013, 09:51 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
To the anti-fighting moaners, lest presume that you finally get your wish and fighting is completely removed from the game. Then you watch as some guy does a lucicesque run on your goalie. What do you do ? send him the stink eye and let the zebras handle it ? Write a tersely worded letter to his mom ? What ?
Watch my team score four power play goals on the resulting major power play, presumably.

Quote:
You know what, that guy is gonna get speared so hard he's going to look like a shish-kabob. Yeah, that's the way the league should be run. guys settling beefs at the end of a stick. Hooray !
You just went full-blown Jeremiad right there. Why not go a bit further than that and say that this is what will result in the downfall of society as well?

Quote:
Fighting is not a SOURCE of aggression on the ice, its a safety valve FOR the agression that will build up on the ice. Get rid of the safety valve at your own peril but when it blows up in your face, please spare us the excuses that you didnt know it would happen.
Oh, what a bunch of garbage. How many times have either of us seen a 4-1 game where the losing team is basically sleepwalking through the game, then suddenly there's a fight? What aggression needed to be released at that point? You know as well as I do that the words said before the fight were, "C'mon, I need to get my team going."

Any time that there's a relaxation or restriction in some type of rule, there are steps taken to prevent other undesirable side events from happening. The speed limit is raised, but there's a crackdown on tailgating other cars. There's a fatal accident near a dangerous curve, so the area becomes more heavily patrolled with only tickets being handed out (and no warnings). A bar closes down, so DUI checkpoints are removed from the area.

The same thing happens in sports with rule adjustments. In football, there was a crackdown on defensive contact with receivers before the ball is thrown, with the tradeoff being a simultaneous crackdown on offensive interference. Basketball had a crackdown on excessively physical defense, but also tightened what was considered "in the act of shooting" so there weren't a ton of free throws. Hell, every league or sport has a 100+ year history of making rule changes in order to establish or preserve a certain type of balance, but somehow just this one would lead to the demise of Western civilization.

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09-28-2013, 01:53 AM
  #157
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Stu Grimson just released a book. He works as a lawyer in Nashville right now, but we all remember him as a top enforcer back in his day. It goes to show you that an enforcer doesn't have to turn to a life of drugs to be happy. Anyway, one thing about Grimson is that he is a born-again Christian. Always has been. In a Toronto Sun interview he was asked what the balance was between his religious beliefs and fighting on the ice. Roger Neilson was once asked this very same question about how it effects his beliefs too, but I liked Grimson's answer.

He said that a lot of dangerous things happened on the ice, guys were going after each other and he felt the need to protect every player in his dressing room knowing the dangers out there. His attitude is, if someone is going to do that the right way why can't it be a Christian to protect his friends? In other words, he can take the burden off of their backs.

I just found that interesting, here is a guy who was in many a fight, he has a great post-hockey career and he has a good head between his shoulders and was able to even work his religious beliefs into the role he played (most often) for his team.

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09-28-2013, 02:53 AM
  #158
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I'll just say a few things about fighting in hockey.

-I'm hoping that once the league sees how many players sustain hand injuries due to punching visors, they'll scrap the unsportsmanlike penalty for taking your helmet off before fighting.
-If the rule sticks, then it becomes painfully clear that the league is slowly legislating fighting out of the game.
-I think that the league will ultimately lose fans if fighting is phased out. It is a part of the game. Always has been. I'm not saying we should return to the days of bench-clearing brawls, but further legislating fighting out will only increase wreckless checks and stickwork.

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09-28-2013, 03:04 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
To the anti-fighting moaners, lest presume that you finally get your wish and fighting is completely removed from the game. Then you watch as some guy does a lucicesque run on your goalie. What do you do ? send him the stink eye and let the zebras handle it ? Write a tersely worded letter to his mom ? What ?
If there was no fighting, in your hypothetical the lucicesque goalie-runner maybe should be suspended an additional five or ten games to compensate for the beating he would have got?

This suits me as a Habs fan as we haven't had a guy who could hurt lucicesque guys with his fists except this polite gentleman once, he had a mighty punch but a mightier code anyway I digress...

Don't you think that for this lucicesque goalie-runner that a seriously long suspension would be a better deterrent than having to drop them for a fight that he'd probably win anyway?

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09-28-2013, 11:20 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Stu Grimson just released a book. He works as a lawyer in Nashville right now, but we all remember him as a top enforcer back in his day. It goes to show you that an enforcer doesn't have to turn to a life of drugs to be happy. Anyway, one thing about Grimson is that he is a born-again Christian. Always has been. In a Toronto Sun interview he was asked what the balance was between his religious beliefs and fighting on the ice. Roger Neilson was once asked this very same question about how it effects his beliefs too, but I liked Grimson's answer.

He said that a lot of dangerous things happened on the ice, guys were going after each other and he felt the need to protect every player in his dressing room knowing the dangers out there. His attitude is, if someone is going to do that the right way why can't it be a Christian to protect his friends? In other words, he can take the burden off of their backs.

I just found that interesting, here is a guy who was in many a fight, he has a great post-hockey career and he has a good head between his shoulders and was able to even work his religious beliefs into the role he played (most often) for his team.
I'm sure I could find a list of ex-NBA enforcers from back when that was still common, interview them, and find a similar type of mentality. The idea of fighting as a method of defense is hardly a new one, and hardly a unique one. One doesn't need to be a saint or a scholar to have this mentality.

And it has absolutely nothing to do with whether increasingly large hockey players should possess the unilateral right to punch each other in the face. It has nothing to do with whether it's good for the game on the ice, whether it's good for the image of the game off the ice, and whether it attracts or keeps away new fans. It has nothing to do with whether continuing to allow fighting in the game will have a detrimental impact on the economics of the NHL, whether through skyrocketing insurance costs or through the possibility of needing to set aside hundreds of millions of dollars to prepare for the possibility of concussion-related lawsuits down the road.

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09-28-2013, 11:22 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Bruise Bros 2426 View Post
I'll just say a few things about fighting in hockey.

-I'm hoping that once the league sees how many players sustain hand injuries due to punching visors, they'll scrap the unsportsmanlike penalty for taking your helmet off before fighting.
I'd rather suffer a broken hand than a concussion from hitting my unhelmeted head on the ice. And as someone who's suffered both multiple concussions and multiple fractures in my hands...

I'd also like to see a list of players who suffered career-ending or life-altering hand injuries in the NHL.

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09-28-2013, 12:40 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
What was that stat, there are 0.70 fights per game in junior? Still more than the NHL on a per game basis in most seasons. It will still exist.



I can't see them ever moving to full faceshield.
From the article I quoted.
Quote:
The commissioner also suggested that while players, particularly enforcers like Ty Bilcke haven't come out in full support of the ban, that players are embracing the fact that they can be work on their hockey skills and be appreciated for doing things other than fighting. Fighting in the OHL dropped by 24% this past season to just 0.70 per game, which is very close to the QMJHL's 0.67 from last season. Fighting in the junior game has been decreasing steadily for 15 years, and the hockey community's newfound appreciation for the dangers of concussions could lead to a further drop this next season
24% is a significant drop. The trend as the article has pointed out fighting has been on the declin in junior. David Branch does not like fighting. He will probably put in place more rules to curb fighting. It would not surprise me at all to see fighting gone in junior in the next ten years.

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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
I'm sorry what has changed ? Are players dropping like flies now when they werent in years gone by ?

Do you actually think that you, and moaners of your ilk are actually the FIRST one's to lament fighting ? I've been hearing the same bellyaching my entire life.
Fighters are bigger and are training more. Concussions are a real issue. If more situations like Boogaard and Belak arise then the league will seriously look at decreasing fighting.

Quote:
Hockey has had fights for more than a century, I'd say that for at least the last 50 years there has been a chardonnay crowd who are so easily offended that they think it is their responsibility to tell everyone how the game should be. What has happened ? ZIP. This isnt a popularity contest and IF it were YOU DONT GET TO VOTE. 50 years ago the percentage of players that supported fighting was what 96%? Last year it was what ? 96% ? If that train of change is a commin, I'll be long dead before it rolls into the station.
The league has a role to look after its player's health.

Quote:
Good luck in getting the players to abandon a system that they beleive makes them safer on the ice in order to sate that " icky feeling" you get when two uys square off face to face and drop the mittens. Perhaps you can join your entitled breatheren and tkink you can impose this change on the player by fiat, again good luck with that.

The fans want it, the players demand it, the GMs and owners at the very least tolerate it, but its all gonna change for some squeaky wheel who knows so much more about the game than all of those idiots.
Again, the league has a role to look after its player`s health.

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09-28-2013, 01:17 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
From the article I quoted.

24% is a significant drop. The trend as the article has pointed out fighting has been on the declin in junior. David Branch does not like fighting. He will probably put in place more rules to curb fighting. It would not surprise me at all to see fighting gone in junior in the next ten years.

Fighters are bigger and are training more. Concussions are a real issue. If more situations like Boogaard and Belak arise then the league will seriously look at decreasing fighting.

The league has a role to look after its player's health.

Again, the league has a role to look after its player`s health.
I'm sorry your arguments dont make sense. Are you saying that guys who faught in previous years were not sustaining concussions ?
That guys like mcsorley, fotiu, and kordic and probert were throwing marshmallows ? Players got concussions in the past, even if we called them by a different name. And some guys seem to have been negatively affected by this which is unfortunate( SEEM is the operative word) and you know what, a lot of guys seem to be doing just fine despite engaging in lots of fights.

And if the league has a role in player's health, why the hell are they letting these behemouths recklessly crash into each other with clubs in their hands and knives of their feet ? OOOOOOH the horror . Wont somebody think of the children ???????

I suspect you will say that you can't play hockey without checking, sticks and skates, that these elements are inseparable from what the essence of the game is. If you do, welcome to my side of the argument because whether you like or not fighting is in the same category. If you feel compelled to try these grand social engineering experiments, could you find some other venue and leave the damn game alone, for once ?

If player safety is the real concern, then why not advocate full sheilds ? It really wouldnt change the game all that much, I mean I'm sure it wont degenerate into repetitive careless stick work and an absolute lack of concern for opponents safety the way it does in the NCAA. Does the game really NEED thinks like icing and offsides , I imagine we could get rid of them and enjoy watching the players skate up and down the ice. What about lifters, I've been a coach for ringette for quite some time now and there really is not need for lifters, the kids have a grand old time. Trust me I'm an authority on this and if there is one thing we can all agree with is that the game had to emulate unrelated sports that nobody cares about because I'm a self described authority in it. I mean if the NHL does not intend to make itself more like the ringette, the NBA THE NFL OR GOD FORBID MLS then what the hell is the point ?

Perhaps to make it more interesting, in these new visions of the game we could assign scores for how well they do this, get some judges and have the players evaluated on techincal merit and required elements.

Whadda ya think ?

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09-28-2013, 01:37 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
I'm sorry your arguments dont make sense. Are you saying that guys who faught in previous years were not sustaining concussions ?
That guys like mcsorley, fotiu, and kordic and probert were throwing marshmallows ? Players got concussions in the past, even if we called them by a different name. And some guys seem to have been negatively affected by this which is unfortunate( SEEM is the operative word) and you know what, a lot of guys seem to be doing just fine despite engaging in lots of fights.
The difference is we now know the dangers brain injuries can cause. Years ago someone could throw a shoulder hit to the head. Now that hit is suspendable. What changed?

Quote:
And if the league has a role in player's health, why the hell are they letting these behemouths recklessly crash into each other with clubs in their hands and knives of their feet ? OOOOOOH the horror . Wont somebody think of the children ???????
Skates are part of the game. It is called ice hockey.

Quote:
I suspect you will say that you can't play hockey without checking, sticks and skates, that these elements are inseparable from what the essence of the game is. If you do, welcome to my side of the argument because whether you like or not fighting is in the same category. If you feel compelled to try these grand social engineering experiments, could you find some other venue and leave the damn game alone, for once ?
The bolded has nothing to do what I have been saying.

Quote:
If player safety is the real concern, then why not advocate full sheilds ? It really wouldnt change the game all that much, I mean I'm sure it wont degenerate into repetitive careless stick work and an absolute lack of concern for opponents safety the way it does in the NCAA. Does the game really NEED thinks like icing and offsides , I imagine we could get rid of them and enjoy watching the players skate up and down the ice. What about lifters, I've been a coach for ringette for quite some time now and there really is not need for lifters, the kids have a grand old time. Trust me I'm an authority on this and if there is one thing we can all agree with is that the game had to emulate unrelated sports that nobody cares about because I'm a self described authority in it. I mean if the NHL does not intend to make itself more like the ringette, the NBA THE NFL OR GOD FORBID MLS then what the hell is the point ?
Hockey doesn't need fighting. It isn't a crucial part of the game. Skates are a crucial part of the game, same with a stick. Hits to the head used to be okay as long as it was with the shoulder. Now hits to the head are illegal. Concussions has changed that. The NFL has had problems with concussions so they have tried to limit the hits to the head. Fighting can lead to concussions and we will see, and already have, the NHL try to limit the numbers of fights.

Quote:
Perhaps to make it more interesting, in these new visions of the game we could assign scores for how well they do this, get some judges and have the players evaluated on techincal merit and required elements.

Whadda ya think ?
Like most of the stuff you write this is irrelvant to the argument.

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09-28-2013, 02:55 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
I'm sorry what has changed ? Are players dropping like flies now when they werent in years gone by ?

Do you actually think that you, and moaners of your ilk are actually the FIRST one's to lament fighting ? I've been hearing the same bellyaching my entire life.

Hockey has had fights for more than a century, I'd say that for at least the last 50 years there has been a chardonnay crowd who are so easily offended that they think it is their responsibility to tell everyone how the game should be. What has happened ? ZIP. This isnt a popularity contest and IF it were YOU DONT GET TO VOTE. 50 years ago the percentage of players that supported fighting was what 96%? Last year it was what ? 96% ? If that train of change is a commin, I'll be long dead before it rolls into the station.

Good luck in getting the players to abandon a system that they beleive makes them safer on the ice in order to sate that " icky feeling" you get when two uys square off face to face and drop the mittens. Perhaps you can join your entitled breatheren and tkink you can impose this change on the player by fiat, again good luck with that.

The fans want it, the players demand it, the GMs and owners at the very least tolerate it, but its all gonna change for some squeaky wheel who knows so much more about the game than all of those idiots.
There you go. Isn't it about time people actually listen to the players who risk their health ON the ice? They want it. Ask Martin St. Louis, all 5'8" of him, if he would feel safer without the fights? The players see the need for it, they are on the ice going a mile a minute, not us.

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Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
Chicago 09-10 21st in fights
Pens 23rd
Wings last
Ducks first
Canes 28th
Lightning 24th
Devils 18th

Besides the Bruins and Ducks every team that has won the cup has been in the bottom half in fights.

I am not anti fighting. My point is there is a very good chance that fighting will be eliminated or very close to it in the NHL at some point.
You won't be alive to see it. The Bruins were 2nd in fights last year and almost won the Cup. The Leafs were first and almost beat the Bruins. Fighting is like blocking shots, it has its purpose, but it doesn't mean if you lead the league in that stat that you'll win the Cup. The Rangers block shots by the dozen without so much as a Cup final appearance.

Look, I hear it all the time, and have heard it for tons of years. The left will always say "THIS time they'll go too far and then they'll HAVE to ban fighting." Don Sanderson died from a fight in (I can't remember what league it was) 2009 because he hit his head on the ice. Nothing changes. Three enforcers die in one summer in 2011 and despite the activists dancing on their graves nothing changed. They were troubled men, Wade Belak was about to start a job with Nashville behind the scenes (was it radio or something) and knew he never had to drop the mitts again. He killed himself. No one knows why, but people were licking their chops because they were fighters. No one cared when Cherapanov died because it didn't help their agenda.

Every time I hear a big "movement" towards finally taking fighting out of the game I sit back, wait until even the activists wear themselves out and continue enjoying my favourite game. There is always something they cling their wagon to and run with it and nothing changes. But this time it will for sure right? Hmmm.

Look, your username is canucksfan. I'm a Leaf fan so I know the pain of a team that disapoints you, but the Leafs at least don't let teams push them around. The Canucks get their clocks cleaned and for the next 100 years the image of Tim Thomas decking Sedin in front of the net or Brad Marchand punching Henrik with his teammates practically taking pictures while it is happening will forever represent this era of the Canucks. So you have to ask yourself, do you loathe fighting because your team just isn't very good at it?

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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
I'm sure I could find a list of ex-NBA enforcers from back when that was still common, interview them, and find a similar type of mentality. The idea of fighting as a method of defense is hardly a new one, and hardly a unique one. One doesn't need to be a saint or a scholar to have this mentality.

And it has absolutely nothing to do with whether increasingly large hockey players should possess the unilateral right to punch each other in the face. It has nothing to do with whether it's good for the game on the ice, whether it's good for the image of the game off the ice, and whether it attracts or keeps away new fans. It has nothing to do with whether continuing to allow fighting in the game will have a detrimental impact on the economics of the NHL, whether through skyrocketing insurance costs or through the possibility of needing to set aside hundreds of millions of dollars to prepare for the possibility of concussion-related lawsuits down the road.
On your death bed, you'll still be complaining about fighting in hockey, I'll bet on it. You know why? Because it will still be there in the NHL.

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Old
09-28-2013, 03:19 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
There you go. Isn't it about time people actually listen to the players who risk their health ON the ice? They want it. Ask Martin St. Louis, all 5'8" of him, if he would feel safer without the fights? The players see the need for it, they are on the ice going a mile a minute, not us.
The players didn't want to bring in mandatory visors but it is happening. Players also didn't want the helmet removal penalty but it happened. Like it or not, players opinons mean jack.


Quote:
You won't be alive to see it. The Bruins were 2nd in fights last year and almost won the Cup. The Leafs were first and almost beat the Bruins. Fighting is like blocking shots, it has its purpose, but it doesn't mean if you lead the league in that stat that you'll win the Cup. The Rangers block shots by the dozen without so much as a Cup final appearance.
I am 27 and if I live 50 more years I will not see fighting in hockey. Agree with the bolded.

Quote:
Look, I hear it all the time, and have heard it for tons of years. The left will always say "THIS time they'll go too far and then they'll HAVE to ban fighting."
"The left"??? It isn't a political issue.

Quote:
Don Sanderson died from a fight in (I can't remember what league it was) 2009 because he hit his head on the ice. Nothing changes.
http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey...rsons_dad.html

Quote:
The Ontario Hockey League moved quickly, instituting a mandatory two-minute penalty and one-game suspension for any player who removes his helmet or undoes his chinstrap during a fight.
The OHL had some response. If it happens in the NHL expect a large response.

Quote:
Three enforcers die in one summer in 2011 and despite the activists dancing on their graves nothing changed. They were troubled men, Wade Belak was about to start a job with Nashville behind the scenes (was it radio or something) and knew he never had to drop the mitts again. He killed himself. No one knows why, but people were licking their chops because they were fighters. No one cared when Cherapanov died because it didn't help their agenda.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/06/sp...anted=all&_r=0

Quote:
Boogaard had chronic traumatic encephalopathy, commonly known as C.T.E., a close relative of Alzheimer’s disease. It is believed to be caused by repeated blows to the head. It can be diagnosed only posthumously, but scientists say it shows itself in symptoms like memory loss, impulsiveness, mood swings, even addiction
Derke was troubled most likely due to fighting. Rypien had a mental illness not caused from fighting.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/are-nh...rauma-1.982100

Quote:
So anytime I hear of an athlete who has had a lot of head trauma who commits suicide, I am immediately concerned that chronic traumatic encephalopathy may have played a role. And I would like to study their brain to see whether the presence of chronic traumatic encephalopathy is there.
The bolded is garbage. Lots of people cared about his death.


Quote:
Every time I hear a big "movement" towards finally taking fighting out of the game I sit back, wait until even the activists wear themselves out and continue enjoying my favourite game. There is always something they cling their wagon to and run with it and nothing changes. But this time it will for sure right? Hmmm.
Fighting is slowly the declining and the numbers show it.

Quote:
Look, your username is canucksfan. I'm a Leaf fan so I know the pain of a team that disapoints you, but the Leafs at least don't let teams push them around. The Canucks get their clocks cleaned and for the next 100 years the image of Tim Thomas decking Sedin in front of the net or Brad Marchand punching Henrik with his teammates practically taking pictures while it is happening will forever represent this era of the Canucks. So you have to ask yourself, do you loathe fighting because your team just isn't very good at it?
This is what I said in post #129
Quote:
I like fighting a lot in hockey.
It appears you and sandyman have reading comprehension problems.

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09-28-2013, 07:16 PM
  #167
Iusedtoloveher
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http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexkonr...ffs-marketing/

I found this paragraph interesting.

"But the NHL doesn’t see hoops as the biggest factor dragging down its ratings. Instead the biggest threat is a common fan behavior that NHL marketing chief Brian Jennings says the league has spent seven years studying: hockey fans’ hyper-local behavior that makes them tune out in droves from the playoffs when their team drops out of the race."

I used to watch the NHL playoffs, no matter who was playing. After the Rangers were eliminated last year though, I stopped watching. What made me stop watching was the perceived lack of passion compared to the past. The playoffs used to look like this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0JGUaeA79U

Now, it's nothing like that IMO. I prefer the old version.

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09-28-2013, 07:46 PM
  #168
Big Phil
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Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
The players didn't want to bring in mandatory visors but it is happening. Players also didn't want the helmet removal penalty but it happened. Like it or not, players opinons mean jack.

I am 27 and if I live 50 more years I will not see fighting in hockey. Agree with the bolded.
Alright, you wrote a lot on here. You're 27? You'll see fighting in the NHL at 77 years old.

I've heard you guys talking about this for years upon years upon years. You guys never give up. There were people who thought fighting was too violent in the 1960s. In the 1970s, in the 1980s, in the 1990s. Fighting is "always" on its way out in the NHL. It has ALWAYS been on death's door for as long as I have watched the game of hockey. My mother used to say "they ought to take fighting out of the game, look at them, a bunch of grown men". I could tell you how long ago that was, but put it this way, there were a minority of people who thought that way back then too. In fact, when they do these "polls" asking if Canadians think fighting should be banned from hockey they involve asking little old ladies, like my mother. And guess what they say? But ask truly devout fans of the game and we're looking at 90% at least, that want it to stay the way it is. But the silent majority always make it seem like the country is in an uproar over fighting. Power of the media, got to love it with the naive bunch in our world.

The visor thing you talked about wasn't an issue it once was. The majority of the NHL wears them as it is. An even higher percentage of newcomers wear them. It was going the way of the dodo bird on its own. Fighting isn't. There was an increase in 2013. Slight one, but if we want to get into numbers, there it is.

Plus, like I said, other than the spike of fighting in the 1980s, the amount of fights per game has remained rather stagnant, including the present day. In the "new" NHL since 2005 there hasn't been a drop at all since then.

The people that want to get fighting out of the game remind me of the same people who always claim that Don Cherry is going to be fired "this time" because he "went too far". They fade away, they get bored when people ignore them and a new crop is sure to replace them. Life goes on, but they keep trying, thankfully to no avail.

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09-28-2013, 07:49 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Iusedtoloveher View Post
http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexkonr...ffs-marketing/

I found this paragraph interesting.

"But the NHL doesn’t see hoops as the biggest factor dragging down its ratings. Instead the biggest threat is a common fan behavior that NHL marketing chief Brian Jennings says the league has spent seven years studying: hockey fans’ hyper-local behavior that makes them tune out in droves from the playoffs when their team drops out of the race."

I used to watch the NHL playoffs, no matter who was playing. After the Rangers were eliminated last year though, I stopped watching. What made me stop watching was the perceived lack of passion compared to the past. The playoffs used to look like this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0JGUaeA79U

Now, it's nothing like that IMO. I prefer the old version
.
They still have those brawls once in a while in today's game, despite the politically correct block parents who think we are a doomed society because of it. Look at last year with Montreal/Ottawa. Looks just like the Isles/Rangers brawl in 1990.

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09-28-2013, 08:08 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Alright, you wrote a lot on here. You're 27? You'll see fighting in the NHL at 77 years old. .
I didn't write that much. In this post you wrote more than me. I like how you decided to ignore my points which proves your claims to be incorrect. Examples, Sanderson, Cherepanov, Boogaard and how I hate fighting.

I think fighting will be gone or almost gone in 20 years. The evidence is in the declin in fighting and various leagues trying to decrease it.

Quote:
I've heard you guys talking about this for years upon years upon years. You guys never give up. There were people who thought fighting was too violent in the 1960s. In the 1970s, in the 1980s, in the 1990s. Fighting is "always" on its way out in the NHL. It has ALWAYS been on death's door for as long as I have watched the game of hockey. My mother used to say "they ought to take fighting out of the game, look at them, a bunch of grown men".
I wouldn't use the term you guys. I used to be a big believer in fighting. It wasn't until a few years ago that I believe it should go. I still like watching fights. One of favourite sports is MMA. However, I care more about player safety than I do my entertainment value.

Quote:
I could tell you how long ago that was, but put it this way, there were a minority of people who thought that way back then too. In fact, when they do these "polls" asking if Canadians think fighting should be banned from hockey they involve asking little old ladies, like my mother. And guess what they say? But ask truly devout fans of the game and we're looking at 90% at least, that want it to stay the way it is. But the silent majority always make it seem like the country is in an uproar over fighting. Power of the media, got to love it with the naive bunch in our world.
You can poll a bunch of guys who participate in dog fighting. Most of them would support it. However, the majority of the public would not support it. People are looking out for player safety. That is the prime reason people want fighting out of hockey.

Quote:
The visor thing you talked about wasn't an issue it once was. The majority of the NHL wears them as it is. An even higher percentage of newcomers wear them. It was going the way of the dodo bird on its own. Fighting isn't. There was an increase in 2013. Slight one, but if we want to get into numbers, there it is.
It was a shortened season though. That could impact numbers. This year will be interesting to see.

Quote:
Plus, like I said, other than the spike of fighting in the 1980s, the amount of fights per game has remained rather stagnant, including the present day. In the "new" NHL since 2005 there hasn't been a drop at all since then.
Agrred.

Quote:
The people that want to get fighting out of the game remind me of the same people who always claim that Don Cherry is going to be fired "this time" because he "went too far". They fade away, they get bored when people ignore them and a new crop is sure to replace them. Life goes on, but they keep trying, thankfully to no avail
Do you think the NHL is making it easier for harder to fight?

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Old
09-28-2013, 08:32 PM
  #171
ForsbergForever
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Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
I didn't write that much. In this post you wrote more than me. I like how you decided to ignore my points which proves your claims to be incorrect. Examples, Sanderson, Cherepanov, Boogaard and how I hate fighting.
Cherepanov died from a congenital heart defect...how does his death have anything to do with fighting?

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09-28-2013, 08:43 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
There you go. Isn't it about time people actually listen to the players who risk their health ON the ice? They want it. Ask Martin St. Louis, all 5'8" of him, if he would feel safer without the fights? The players see the need for it, they are on the ice going a mile a minute, not us.



You won't be alive to see it. The Bruins were 2nd in fights last year and almost won the Cup. The Leafs were first and almost beat the Bruins. Fighting is like blocking shots, it has its purpose, but it doesn't mean if you lead the league in that stat that you'll win the Cup. The Rangers block shots by the dozen without so much as a Cup final appearance.

Look, I hear it all the time, and have heard it for tons of years. The left will always say "THIS time they'll go too far and then they'll HAVE to ban fighting." Don Sanderson died from a fight in (I can't remember what league it was) 2009 because he hit his head on the ice. Nothing changes. Three enforcers die in one summer in 2011 and despite the activists dancing on their graves nothing changed. They were troubled men, Wade Belak was about to start a job with Nashville behind the scenes (was it radio or something) and knew he never had to drop the mitts again. He killed himself. No one knows why, but people were licking their chops because they were fighters. No one cared when Cherapanov died because it didn't help their agenda.

Every time I hear a big "movement" towards finally taking fighting out of the game I sit back, wait until even the activists wear themselves out and continue enjoying my favourite game. There is always something they cling their wagon to and run with it and nothing changes. But this time it will for sure right? Hmmm.

Look, your username is canucksfan. I'm a Leaf fan so I know the pain of a team that disapoints you, but the Leafs at least don't let teams push them around. The Canucks get their clocks cleaned and for the next 100 years the image of Tim Thomas decking Sedin in front of the net or Brad Marchand punching Henrik with his teammates practically taking pictures while it is happening will forever represent this era of the Canucks. So you have to ask yourself, do you loathe fighting because your team just isn't very good at it?



On your death bed, you'll still be complaining about fighting in hockey, I'll bet on it. You know why? Because it will still be there in the NHL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsbergForever View Post
Cherepanov died from a congenital heart defect...how does his death have anything to do with fighting?
Big Phil seems to think no one cares about hockey players deaths unless they are killed due to a fight.

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Old
09-28-2013, 08:55 PM
  #173
Silence Of The Plams
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I certainly hope not. It's part of the game and has its meaning.

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Old
09-29-2013, 12:00 AM
  #174
Iusedtoloveher
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Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post

I still like watching fights. One of favourite sports is MMA. However, I care more about player safety than I do my entertainment value.
It wasn't addressed to me, but I'm addressing it anyway. I guess that's the difference between us. I only care about player safety if it can be done without affecting the game that I grew fond of. Sure, it would be great if you could have your cake and eat it too, but you can't. Playing sports is dangerous, and players are going to get hurt, regardless of the sport that they play. Player safety when it comes to hockey fights doesn't outweigh the fans entertainment value IMO.

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09-29-2013, 08:23 AM
  #175
Big Phil
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Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
Big Phil seems to think no one cares about hockey players deaths unless they are killed due to a fight.
Its the media, they won't focus on it because it doesn't fit their agenda. Three enforcers die in one summer and all of the sudden the media jumped on their graves like a fat kid on a smartie, trying to pinpoint fighting as the reason behind it. Meanwhile there are dozens of former players who dropped the mitts often enough who are doing well, with good jobs and a great mind. Some of them coach(ed) in the NHL. One of them is among the most important people in the game (Shanahan).

Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
I didn't write that much. In this post you wrote more than me. I like how you decided to ignore my points which proves your claims to be incorrect. Examples, Sanderson, Cherepanov, Boogaard and how I hate fighting.

I think fighting will be gone or almost gone in 20 years. The evidence is in the declin in fighting and various leagues trying to decrease it.

I wouldn't use the term you guys. I used to be a big believer in fighting. It wasn't until a few years ago that I believe it should go. I still like watching fights. One of favourite sports is MMA. However, I care more about player safety than I do my entertainment value.
It is a little confusing to me here. You "like" fighting in the game but believe it should go because of player safety. I hope you also want to take shot blocking, body checks and hard slap shots out of the game as well. All of those instances cause more injuries than two guys dropping the gloves. You are looking out for player safety yet you want the NHL to turn into the Women's hockey league which is like watching paint dry. You have to stop trying to pretend that NHL hockey is a game for the faint of heart, it isn't all the time. It is a man's game, played by fast skating, highly competitive men. Collisions are encouraged, holding someone accountable is encouraged (fighting). This is the risk the players take for millions of dollars and they gladly do it. You aren't on the ice like they are. If it weren't for fighting in the game Wayne Gretzky wouldn't have had as much room out there to do his thing, and you can bet neither would Steve Yzerman. It's there for a reason, sometimes it is like a smoke detector and you are just glad to have it if you need it. Fighting - or even the potential of fighting - causes less injuries than if it were never around in the first place, so we can stop this "player safety" nonsense.


Quote:
Agrred.
So then if you agree what is the issue? In a decade we haven't seen a drop in fighting at all and yet you are predicting an end to it.

Quote:
Do you think the NHL is making it easier for harder to fight?
I don't know. I know the visor thing was going to happen eventually. But there have always been things to curb fighting issues. The "third man in" rule in 1978. The players (most notably the Flyers) just stopped jumping in to help their buddy in a fight unless they wanted an extra penalty. The instigator rule, not a good rule, but the players found a way to adjust. I remember there was talk a few years ago about calling a penalty on a fight that started right after the faceoff in order to prevent "staged" fighting. Never happened. But if it did, the players are smart cookies, they would have just skated around for 5 seconds and dropped the gloves.

Bottom line is, there are always ways the players will adjust to these things. When helmets were mandatory it didn't matter nor with visors. The players will rip them off themselves, be more careful where they punch, both take them off themselves and both get the extra two minute penalty or there will be a snap off visor installed in a helmet. They'll dance around it regardless, because when there's a fight, there's a fight and when there is a will there is a way.

Also, this whole idea about fighting being "banned" is nonsense. It already is banned. It isn't allowed in the game. There is a 5 minute penalty for it.

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