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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Niedermayer vs Chara

View Poll Results: Who was better?
Scott Niedermayer 59 54.63%
Zdeno Chara 46 42.59%
Even 3 2.78%
Voters: 108. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-24-2013, 07:55 PM
  #51
Sadekuuro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Pronger no doubt was built for the clutch and grab era with his physical play but in the post lockout and transition game Nieds has the edge.
Not convinced Niedermayer has the edge post-lockout. That's when he had his best regular seasons, of course, but Pronger continued to be strong there while finally becoming a dominant postseason performer.

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09-24-2013, 08:10 PM
  #52
Big Phil
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Just thought we'd compare their Norris finishes for their career (and Chara's so far):

Niedermayer - 1, 2, 2, 5, 10, 10, 12, 13
Chara - 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 20

So the question is, how does Niedermayer make up that gap? Chara has clearly had more elite seasons and in my mind has always been the more dominating defenseman. Do the Stanley Cups really make up for it for Nieds?

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09-25-2013, 02:29 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Do the Stanley Cups really make up for it for Nieds?
As has been said, Niedermayer's SC victories which are relevant are 03 and 07.. In 2003 he might won Conn Smythe trophy, but he didn't, in 2007 Pronger was better, but Nieds took it. So in this sense it's a wash. 2 strong runs, with 1 Conn Smythe Trophy output.
What about Chara.. It's similar but definitely weaker. Two finals run, at least during one he was talked as a potential winner of Smythe, but rightfully didn't win it.
Niedermayer has clear advantage here. Not exactly skydraper edge, but clear.

What about all star selections? Along with Norris Trophy finishes show clear advantage of Chara.
Chara 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd
Nieds - 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd

It looks like it's a wash, tossup..
One thing are numbers, seasons counting and another is experience. Chara is undisputed the best defensman of his generation, true leader, recognized by fans, media and even opponents. That's the level which Niedermayer has never reached (great character, but never the undisputed king) and we can squeeze numbers anyhow.

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09-25-2013, 07:06 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
As has been said, Niedermayer's SC victories which are relevant are 03 and 07.. In 2003 he might won Conn Smythe trophy, but he didn't, in 2007 Pronger was better, but Nieds took it. So in this sense it's a wash. 2 strong runs, with 1 Conn Smythe Trophy output.
What about Chara.. It's similar but definitely weaker. Two finals run, at least during one he was talked as a potential winner of Smythe, but rightfully didn't win it.
Niedermayer has clear advantage here. Not exactly skydraper edge, but clear.

What about all star selections? Along with Norris Trophy finishes show clear advantage of Chara.
Chara 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd
Nieds - 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd

It looks like it's a wash, tossup..
One thing are numbers, seasons counting and another is experience. Chara is undisputed the best defensman of his generation, true leader, recognized by fans, media and even opponents. That's the level which Niedermayer has never reached (great character, but never the undisputed king) and we can squeeze numbers anyhow.
How exactly is Chara a "true leader" and Niedermayer "never reached" that level despite being the captain of a Stanley Cup champion team? With regards to the "best of his generation" part, that's more than a bit unfair considering Niedermayer's generation included a top 5 defenseman of all-time, whereas no one in Chara's is close or looks to be close.

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09-25-2013, 07:17 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Just thought we'd compare their Norris finishes for their career (and Chara's so far):

Niedermayer - 1, 2, 2, 5, 10, 10, 12, 13
Chara - 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 20

So the question is, how does Niedermayer make up that gap? Chara has clearly had more elite seasons and in my mind has always been the more dominating defenseman. Do the Stanley Cups really make up for it for Nieds?
I think the difference in play up until the age of 23 makes quite a bit of difference here as well, Nieds has a decent resume, Chara was a lot slower to develop.

The thread assumes that Chara doesn't play another game, it's pretty clear that he has a very good chance of having the better career when it's all said and done he is still going strong at 36 heading into this season.

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09-25-2013, 10:56 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
How exactly is Chara a "true leader" and Niedermayer "never reached" that level despite being the captain of a Stanley Cup champion team? With regards to the "best of his generation" part, that's more than a bit unfair considering Niedermayer's generation included a top 5 defenseman of all-time, whereas no one in Chara's is close or looks to be close.
It's an overlap, but both of them shared some individual success against Lidstrom.

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09-25-2013, 11:09 AM
  #57
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I think this is really, really close to the point of almost being a tossup.

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09-25-2013, 12:18 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
As has been said, Niedermayer's SC victories which are relevant are 03 and 07.. In 2003 he might won Conn Smythe trophy, but he didn't, in 2007 Pronger was better, but Nieds took it. So in this sense it's a wash. 2 strong runs, with 1 Conn Smythe Trophy output.
What about Chara.. It's similar but definitely weaker. Two finals run, at least during one he was talked as a potential winner of Smythe, but rightfully didn't win it.
Niedermayer has clear advantage here. Not exactly skydraper edge, but clear.
Here is the comparison with their playoff numbers:

Niedermayer 98 points in 202 games
Chara 54 points in 129 games

Definitely give Niedermayer the edge although you have to think Chara and the Bruins are far from over when it comes to long playoff runs.

Things overall do balance out, but you have to throw in the eye test as well. Niedermayer has the offensive edge but that's it in my mind. Chara beats him physically, defensively, is at least as good of a leader in my opinion (leading his team to a Cup despite not having an all-time great defenseman with him) and I think he can control the pace of the game better than Niedermayer could. Not to mention the ability to drop the mitts if someone chooses.

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09-25-2013, 01:44 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Here is the comparison with their playoff numbers:

Niedermayer 98 points in 202 games
Chara 54 points in 129 games

Definitely give Niedermayer the edge although you have to think Chara and the Bruins are far from over when it comes to long playoff runs.

Things overall do balance out, but you have to throw in the eye test as well. Niedermayer has the offensive edge but that's it in my mind. Chara beats him physically, defensively, is at least as good of a leader in my opinion (leading his team to a Cup despite not having an all-time great defenseman with him) and I think he can control the pace of the game better than Niedermayer could. Not to mention the ability to drop the mitts if someone chooses.
to my eyes, peak niedermayer was chara's equal defensively, and he could control the pace of the game better. but chara has been at an elite defensive level, and at an elite control-the-game level for twice as long as niedermayer was.

physicality, fighting, yeah, obviously. captaincy, i guess we can only speculate. in anaheim, he took over as captain after signing and took a bottom third team to the conference finals, before pronger was there. obviously there were other factors: bringing in five pretty high level kids in getzlaf, perry, beauchemin, lupul, and penner; teemu's comeback; the culture change when they dumped their four top forwards from the pre-lockout season (fedorov, prospal, sykora, and rucchin); development of mcdonald and kunitz; etc etc. but still, i think what niedermayer did post-lockout in anaheim is very similar to chara going to boston as it was hitting the "reset" button and giving that team its winning mentality.

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09-26-2013, 12:40 AM
  #60
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If I could customize a beastly shutdown defence man on a computer I don't think I could do one up as good as Chara is. He gets my vote.

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09-26-2013, 02:13 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
If I could customize a beastly shutdown defence man on a computer I don't think I could do one up as good as Chara is. He gets my vote.
Just going by the description above and guys I've seen, I'd take Chelios and Stevens for that role over Chara. BUT, those guys are both easily ahead of Niedermayer, so for the purposes of this poll, it doesn't really mean much.

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09-26-2013, 04:16 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
If I could customize a beastly shutdown defence man on a computer I don't think I could do one up as good as Chara is. He gets my vote.
Funny, my computer spits out Serge Savard or Rod Langway.....

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09-26-2013, 10:00 PM
  #63
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Funny, my computer spits out Serge Savard or Rod Langway.....
Chara> Langway or Savard

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09-26-2013, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Chara> Langway or Savard
Not certain about that. His mobility can still be an issue.

I think this poll is very close.

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09-26-2013, 11:20 PM
  #65
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Chara> Langway or Savard
Uh, no. Just no

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09-27-2013, 07:57 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Chara> Langway or Savard
That's a viable opinion, people forget that Chara's NHL has the best players in the world in it, Serge and Langway played in a largely Canadian NHL and mostly with recent expansion diluting the talent base.

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09-27-2013, 08:06 AM
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That's a viable opinion, people forget that Chara's NHL has the best players in the world in it, Serge and Langway played in a largely Canadian NHL and mostly with recent expansion diluting the talent base.
You should just make your fully integrated super league argument your signature and save yourself from typing it 10 times a day.


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09-27-2013, 08:13 AM
  #68
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Better defensive defensemen than Chara played in this "fully integrated super league", specifically Lidstrom, Stevens, and Chelios.

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09-27-2013, 08:55 AM
  #69
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@Epsilon: And where's the point of your argument?

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09-27-2013, 09:08 AM
  #70
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That's a viable opinion, people forget that Chara's NHL has the best players in the world in it, Serge and Langway played in a largely Canadian NHL and mostly with recent expansion diluting the talent base.
The "fully integrated league" thing carries some weight, but I thought it was interesting when, just days ago, the coaches and GMs poll on TSN ranked the top 50 players in the league for the coming season (more than 20 years after "the invasion" began), and the breakdown was:

26 Canadians
7 Swedes
6 Americans
4 Russians
7 total between Finland, Slovakia, Czech Rep., Slovenia, and Austria
---------------------------
2/3 North American

Now, it's true that it was only 7 teams from each conference represented in the voting. But I've seen it put forward before that the upper echelon of talent is still largely driven by North American players (despite the theoretical impact of adding such a large potential talent base), and this seems to lend support to that. Bringing it back around to just defensemen (the topic at hand), 10 of those top 50 were defensemen, and Chara, Karlsson, and OEL were the only Europeans listed alongside Weber, Suter, Doughty, Keith, Subban, Pietrangelo, and Letang.

While Chara and Karlsson obviously get a lot of credit/recognition for their play, are they really pushing the competition envelope to that much greater of a degree than guys like Salming, Fetisov, Konstantinov, etc or even Lidstrom, 20+ years ago, or is the "top level" still ultimately defined by the strength of its North American constituents?

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09-27-2013, 09:18 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
You should just make your fully integrated super league argument your signature and save yourself from typing it 10 times a day.

You know what's even funnier?

That Langway is an American to begin with

And honestly, I would put Langway up defensively against anyone. Yes that includes Lidstrom.

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09-27-2013, 09:19 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
The "fully integrated league" thing carries some weight, but I thought it was interesting when, just days ago, the coaches and GMs poll on TSN ranked the top 50 players in the league for the coming season (more than 20 years after "the invasion" began), and the breakdown was:

26 Canadians
7 Swedes
6 Americans
4 Russians
7 total between Finland, Slovakia, Czech Rep., Slovenia, and Austria
---------------------------
2/3 North American

Now, it's true that it was only 7 teams from each conference represented in the voting. But I've seen it put forward before that the upper echelon of talent is still largely driven by North American players (despite the theoretical impact of adding such a large potential talent base), and this seems to lend support to that. Bringing it back around to just defensemen (the topic at hand), 10 of those top 50 were defensemen, and Chara, Karlsson, and OEL were the only Europeans listed alongside Weber, Suter, Doughty, Keith, Subban, Pietrangelo, and Letang.

While Chara and Karlsson obviously get a lot of credit/recognition for their play, are they really pushing the competition envelope to that much greater of a degree than guys like Salming, Fetisov, Konstantinov, etc or even Lidstrom, 20+ years ago, or is the "top level" still ultimately defined by the strength of its North American constituents?
Spot on.

If the people making this argument constantly would look at the number of players in the NHL from each of these countries you have listed.. they would quickly find out their argument is bunk.

Russians are down a lot from their peak. Czechs are down.

I think when I checked it last, the players from Scandinavian countries was up but not enough to make up the difference.

Basically the roster spots freed up are being filled mostly by American players. And while their registrations have exploded, they are being relied upon to fill respectively more roster spots.

So the ever increasing talent pool of ever increasingly talented players is really suspect.

For example Canada has recently had many less registrations in hockey than it did in the 70s and only this year posted a registration number equal to what was seen in the 70s.


Last edited by BraveCanadian: 09-27-2013 at 09:27 AM.
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Old
09-27-2013, 09:22 AM
  #73
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@Epsilon: And where's the point of your argument?
It's responding to the dialogue of the half-dozen posts before it, I figured the connection was pretty clear and I didn't need to bother quoting 4 different posts.

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09-27-2013, 09:30 AM
  #74
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It's responding to the dialogue of the half-dozen posts before it, I figured the connection was pretty clear and I didn't need to bother quoting 4 different posts.
Agreed, it was a good comment and pretty straight forward.

As far as the poll goes, I think Nieds wins this on hockey IQ alone. Chara's hockey IQ has never been very impressive or even existent at times heh.


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09-27-2013, 09:31 AM
  #75
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Spot on.

If the people making this argument constantly would look at the number of players in the NHL from each of these countries you have listed.. they would quickly find out their argument is bunk.

Russians are down a lot from their peak. Czechs are down.

I think when I checked it last, the players from Scandinavian countries was up but not enough to make up the difference.

Basically the roster spots freed up are being filled mostly by American players. And while their registrations have exploded, they are being relied upon to fill respectively more roster spots.

So the ever increasing talent pool of ever increasingly talented players is really suspect.

For example Canada has recently had many less registrations in hockey than it did in the 70s and only this year posted a registration number equal to what was seen in the 70s.
The biggest difference, by far, seems to be at the goaltending position (which makes sense to any long term fan), as Quick is the only N.Am. goalie listed with Lundqvist, Rinne, and Bobrovsky (Price #51), c.f. the days when Hasek might have been alone on a list with Roy, Brodeur, Beezer, Belfour, Joseph, etc.

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