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Niedermayer vs Chara

View Poll Results: Who was better?
Scott Niedermayer 59 54.63%
Zdeno Chara 46 42.59%
Even 3 2.78%
Voters: 108. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-28-2013, 05:08 PM
  #101
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I agree with most of this, but just to throw a wrench in your analogy - Stevens and Niedermayer were split up for good during the 1995 playoffs and after that, Niedermayer almost always played with Daneyko, while Stevens played with a revolving door of partners (sometimes Shawn Chambers, sometimes Tommy Albelin, sometimes whatever rookie the Devils wanted to ease into the lineup), until one of the rookies he eased into the lineup (Brian Rafalski) took off and became Stevens' long-time partner.
You really know how to screw up a good analogy.

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09-28-2013, 05:17 PM
  #102
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to me, it's 2000, where rafalski starts to overtake him, and then '01 and '02 where rafalski outshines him that really paints him in a lesser light than other guys who came in behind hall of famers-- like robinson, chelios, lidstrom, and stevens himself. it's one thing to take a backseat to stevens (or savard, or robinson, or coffey, or langway), but it's another to say, well rafalski's doing a good job, let's let him take on my responsibilities and i'll settle into my steady, minute-munching dan hamhuis/nik hjalmarsson role. there's no shame in playing that role, and you could even give niedermayer brownie points for sacrificing individual glory to benefit a winning team (and those devils team came within one game of back-to-back cups), but still it nags at me because you'd want an all-time great to aspire to more than that.
Yeah, outshines Niedermayer during injury affected seasons in '01 and '02, allll the way until... the '02/03 playoffs (when Niedermayer tied for team lead in scoring on the way to that Cup), followed by Niedermayer winning the Norris in '03/04, so what are we even talking about here? Is this an angle that is supposed to even out Chara's entire early 20s for the purposes of this comparison?

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09-28-2013, 05:20 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Yeah, outshines Niedermayer during injury affected seasons in '01 and '02, allll the way until... the '02/03 playoffs (when Niedermayer tied for team lead in scoring on the way to that Cup), followed by Niedermayer winning the Norris in '03/04, so what are we even talking about here? Is this an angle that is supposed to even out Chara's entire early 20s for the purposes of this comparison?
Niedermayer's 00-01 was not injury affected. His concussion was because of Tie Domi's cheapshot in the 2001 playoffs, which MAY have affected his play the following year.

I remember that sometime around 2001, the local media was talking about Rafalski, not Niedermayer, as a potential future Norris winner.

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09-28-2013, 05:33 PM
  #104
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Niedermayer's 00-01 was not injury affected. His concussion was because of Tie Domi's cheapshot in the 2001 playoffs, which MAY have affected his play the following year.

I remember that sometime around 2001, the local media was talking about Rafalski, not Niedermayer, as a potential future Norris winner.
You're totally forgetting about knee surgery in Feb. of the '00/01 season (surely you wondered how/remembered that he only played 57 games that year), which he came back from for those '01 playoffs... that were ended by concussion... followed by the back injury in the first month of the next season... like I laid out earlier. Horrible 12 months for him that involved recovering from a head, back, and leg injury over the next 24 months as a puck-moving defenseman...

And again, all that "Rafalski talk"... sometime in '01 until... spring '02/03, or maybe '03/04 at the latest.

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09-28-2013, 05:38 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
You're totally forgetting about knee surgery in Feb. of the '00/01 season (surely you wondered how/remembered that he only played 57 games that year), which he came back from for those '01 playoffs... that were ended by concussion... followed by the back injury in the first month of the next season... like I laid out earlier. Horrible 12 months for him that involved recovering from a head, back, and leg injury over the next 24 months as a puck-moving defenseman...

And again, "all" that Rafalski talk... sometime in '01 until... spring '02/03.
You're right about the arthroscopic knee surgery that took Nieds out late in 2001 - he didn't miss all that much time from it, but it was still knee surgery. He missed more games because of his holdout earlier in the season, but I'm sure the knee surgery didn't do him any favors, as skating was always his biggest strength.

Minor correction - his 2001 playoffs weren't ended by the concussion, but he didn't play the same after he came back (probably too soon by today's standards).

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09-28-2013, 05:46 PM
  #106
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You're right about the arthroscopic knee surgery that took Nieds out late in 2001 - he didn't miss all that much time from it, but it was still knee surgery. He missed more games because of his holdout earlier in the season, but I'm sure the knee surgery didn't do him any favors, as skating was always his biggest strength.

Minor correction - his 2001 playoffs weren't ended by the concussion, but he didn't play the same after he came back (probably too soon by today's standards).
Between knee injury and return from surgery, I think it was about a month. And we can call it "effectively ended" his playoffs, I suppose. But when you then lump a back injury just a few months after that on top (plus the pinched neck nerve complications later on - '02?), how much does it really matter? Took him ~24 months, but he somehow got back to form. Some sustain just one of them and are never quite the same.

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09-28-2013, 05:51 PM
  #107
KEEROLE Vatanen
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
MacInnis
Pronger
Blake
Foote
Niedermayer
Jovanovski
Brewer

Stacked is not exactly the first word that comes to mind here.
The forwards for that team were indeed stacked, the defense corps were solid but not stacked.

Bourque and Coffey were a couple of years retired by this point. The only other top D-man missing was Stevens who was 38 at the time and not the player he used to be.

So unless you're going to argue that Brewer and Jovo were Elite...
Hmm I believe at the time Jovanovski and Brewer were both considered highly talented up and comers. Brewer was already playing top pairing minutes, and Jovo in 01-02 was one of the top defensemen in the league scoring 17 goals.

Niedermayer was 2nd team all NHL in 97-98, once again disproving the idea he was not an elite player until late in his career, when he held out in 2000 he still put up 35 points in 57 games. How many defensemen can do that with no training camp? Secondly he was not given a chance to be given the ball in NJ until Scott Stevens got injured, and he ran with it.

Look what he did in his first season in Anaheim, 63 points and could have easily won the norris trophy that season, the following 69 points in 79 games, and split norris votes with his own teammate.

How many players explode in their 30's? few do, he was already elite before then but was never able to fully showcase his talent, and regardless like i said, he obviously had to be held in high regard to make the 2002 olympic team.

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09-28-2013, 06:12 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by KEEROLE Vatanen View Post
Hmm I believe at the time Jovanovski and Brewer were both considered highly talented up and comers. Brewer was already playing top pairing minutes, and Jovo in 01-02 was one of the top defensemen in the league scoring 17 goals.

Niedermayer was 2nd team all NHL in 97-98, once again disproving the idea he was not an elite player until late in his career, when he held out in 2000 he still put up 35 points in 57 games. How many defensemen can do that with no training camp? Secondly he was not given a chance to be given the ball in NJ until Scott Stevens got injured, and he ran with it.

Look what he did in his first season in Anaheim, 63 points and could have easily won the norris trophy that season, the following 69 points in 79 games, and split norris votes with his own teammate.

How many players explode in their 30's? few do, he was already elite before then but was never able to fully showcase his talent, and regardless like i said, he obviously had to be held in high regard to make the 2002 olympic team.
Niedermayer's 1997-98 2nd Team nod was kind of a joke though. I don't think a single person who watched the majority of Devils games that year thought he was a better or more impactful defenseman than Scott Stevens, but Niedermayer for the nod because of his point totals.

Perhaps it is telling that the only season before 2003-04 during which Niedermayer received more than trivial Norris and All-Star votes was the one season when he broke 50 points

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09-28-2013, 07:07 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Niedermayer's 1997-98 2nd Team nod was kind of a joke though. I don't think a single person who watched the majority of Devils games that year thought he was a better or more impactful defenseman than Scott Stevens, but Niedermayer for the nod because of his point totals.
Maybe not defensively, but "overall" is perhaps a different story - for a relatively brief time. Before '96/97, the Devils rose to the top of the standings despite really low goal scoring, and Stevens was seen as the defensive engine behind that. Starting in '96/97 and '97/98, the Devils are ending up with 12 point spreads between them and #2 in the division, and a lot of that is through offense (the franchise would finish anywhere from 9th to 2nd in league scoring in the years that came).

Niedermayer putting up double Stevens' points while setting career highs with 14 goals and 57 points in pretty much the lowest scoring environment of the DPE was perhaps seen as the engine behind that. It certainly was an outstanding regular season in terms of personal and team points. Wouldn't call the 2nd team nomination a "joke" (it was a close race between him and Stevens for 4th/5th in voting), but there are obviously other names you could choose from, and it is of note that Stevens' defensive side was still getting him more Norris votes (especially 1st/2nd place votes) and all-star votes for the most part those years.

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Perhaps it is telling that the only season before 2003-04 during which Niedermayer received more than trivial Norris and All-Star votes was the one season when he broke 50 points
As discussed above, but also look at the guys and seasons he was going up against.

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09-29-2013, 07:40 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Wow. I'm surprised our recollections of Niedermayer are seemingly so different. I remember a guy who earned his way up the depth chart as a teenager (was 19 his entire rookie year, and getting used like a top pairing guy at 20), and was consistently pretty damn good in every year that followed, but suffered a knee injury and a concussion at the end of '00/01, followed by a back injury at the start of '01/02 (so, all in less than a 12 month time frame, he suffered, "recovered", and returned from these). Took him a couple years to more or less fully recover from that, and what, "magically" he turned on the Norris sauce?

My recollection is that it simply took him a few years to pick back up from where he already was midway through the late '90s. True that there were other defensemen you can find each year that shone a little brighter, or were on higher scoring teams than the late '90s Devils (short list some years, others, not), or didn't have someone like Stevens sharing the spotlight for the same 25-30 minutes per game, but we're talking about Niedermayer's quality and consistency as a player, and maybe even his "career value", vs Chara here (and Desjardins, and whoever, for that matter). Perspective, I guess.
But he still wasn't a top 10 defensemen in those years until his Norris year. Stevens was still on the Devils in Nieds' Norris year, although he was getting older. Rafalski was there too, just like in the previous years.

For 11 seasons from 1992-'03 he only had more than 46 points once (57 in 1998). From 1999-'03 he never had more than 39 points.

Just to show you something here, in those years from 1999-'03 here were the point leaders for defensemen:

Lidstrom - 265
Gonchar - 237
Blake - 217
MacInnis - 207
Ozolinch - 192
Zubov - 192
Leetch - 190
......
.....
Rafalski - 171
.........
........
23rd Niedermayer - 145

Pronger had more points than him in significantly less time. Players like Sydor, Numminen, Svehla, Morris had more points as defensemen during that time. So yeah, he was not thought to be among the elite at this time at all, just a guy we all assumed was never going to show his true worth.

So it isn't a myth when people say Niedermayer didn't really develop into a star until his Norris season (or the 2003 postseason) because that's what really happened.

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09-29-2013, 11:39 AM
  #111
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But he still wasn't a top 10 defensemen in those years until his Norris year. Stevens was still on the Devils in Nieds' Norris year, although he was getting older. Rafalski was there too, just like in the previous years.

For 11 seasons from 1992-'03 he only had more than 46 points once (57 in 1998). From 1999-'03 he never had more than 39 points.

Just to show you something here, in those years from 1999-'03 here were the point leaders for defensemen:

Lidstrom - 265
Gonchar - 237
Blake - 217
MacInnis - 207
Ozolinch - 192
Zubov - 192
Leetch - 190
......
.....
Rafalski - 171
.........
........
23rd Niedermayer - 145

Pronger had more points than him in significantly less time. Players like Sydor, Numminen, Svehla, Morris had more points as defensemen during that time. So yeah, he was not thought to be among the elite at this time at all, just a guy we all assumed was never going to show his true worth.

So it isn't a myth when people say Niedermayer didn't really develop into a star until his Norris season (or the 2003 postseason) because that's what really happened.
So if I show you a list of top point-getting defensemen for the 3 years ('97/98-'99/00) leading up to his hold out, the knee surgery, the concussion, the back injury, and then the pinched neck nerve (i.e. the time frame you showed where he finished 23rd in points while missing 42 games), and I show you that Niedermayer's point production was almost exactly equal to Pronger and Blake (8th overall during the time frame, with guys like Murphy ahead of him with 3 more points in 20 more games played), and higher than half the players you just listed, will you just as easily concede that he was a "top offensive defenseman for years leading up to his brief injury derailment? I mean, he's 2nd only to Lidstrom in points over the rest of his career from there, so these are the only questions we're left asking.

Of course not, right? The injury-affected stretch of years between '99/00 and '02/03 when he still managed to be incredibly relevant (25 minute/night defender) are obviously more representative of Niedermayer's quality over his career than the 10+ years that bookend it...

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09-29-2013, 01:24 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
So if I show you a list of top point-getting defensemen for the 3 years ('97/98-'99/00) leading up to his hold out, the knee surgery, the concussion, the back injury, and then the pinched neck nerve (i.e. the time frame you showed where he finished 23rd in points while missing 42 games), and I show you that Niedermayer's point production was almost exactly equal to Pronger and Blake (8th overall during the time frame, with guys like Murphy ahead of him with 3 more points in 20 more games played), and higher than half the players you just listed, will you just as easily concede that he was a "top offensive defenseman for years leading up to his brief injury derailment? I mean, he's 2nd only to Lidstrom in points over the rest of his career from there, so these are the only questions we're left asking.

Of course not, right? The injury-affected stretch of years between '99/00 and '02/03 when he still managed to be incredibly relevant (25 minute/night defender) are obviously more representative of Niedermayer's quality over his career than the 10+ years that bookend it...
Actually it doesn't really do anything.
A lot of the guys that he's close to or beating over that 98-00 stretch are 35 and older and close to retirement. (Bourque, MacInnis, Chelios, Murphy, Housley
Zubov is playing in an even more restricted defensive environment than Nieds is playing in.
Leetch was having his own ailments and playing for a horrible team during that exact stretch.
Pronger is 2 years removed from being a rookie to start that stretch.
Blake and him are once again virtually tied, which is how they should be viewed offensively any way.
Ozolinsh is on par in raw points despite missing 40 more games.
The rest of that list are players that were never much better than above average offensively to begin with
Gonchar hasn't hit his stride yet and I can tell you right now that Gonchar was and still is a better offensive player than Nieds ever was.

So you can cherry pick a decent stretch for Nieds where he looks favourable but the context is that that time frame was a fairly low water mark for offensive contributions from the backend.


You will also have to quantify the state that "he's 2nd only to Lidstrom in points over the rest of his career from there" because from 00/01-09/10 I see him 4th in raw points and 8th in PpG.
Or from 01/02-09/10 he is 3rd in raw and 7th in PpG.
Gonchar is beating him by a country mile in both comparisons, 50+ more points in 50+ less games on both counts.


Now for the context of this thread, I have no issue saying that Nieds was better offensively than Chara for the majority of his career but he is no Lidstrom and Lids is no Bourque/Potvin/MacInnis/Leetch and they are no Orr/Coffey.


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09-29-2013, 01:41 PM
  #113
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Actually it doesn't really do anything.
A lot of the guys that he's close to or beating over that 98-00 stretch are 35 and older and close to retirement. (Bourque, MacInnis, Chelios, Murphy, Housley
Zubov is playing in an even more restricted defensive environment than Nieds is playing in.
Leetch was having his own ailments and playing for a horrible team during that exact stretch.
Pronger is 2 years removed from being a rookie to start that stretch.
Blake and him are once again virtually tied, which is how they should be viewed offensively any way.
Ozolinsh is on par in raw points despite missing 40 more games.
The rest of that list are players that were never much better than above average offensively to begin with
Gonchar hasn't hit his stride yet and I can tell you right now that Gonchar was and still is a better offensive player than Nieds ever was.

So you can cherry pick a decent stretch for Nieds where he looks favourable but the context is that that time frame was a fairly low water mark for offensive contributions from the backend.
Wait, wait. Niedermayer played 17 seasons in the NHL, I'm saying look at 10 of them, others are saying look at an injury-affected 3 of them, and I'm cherry picking? Gold Jerry, gold. "Only" 8th in production during that 3 year stretch of the DPE, competing with HoF offensive defensemen having seasons contributing to their HoF cases, plus at least the last 6 years of his career. Which is to say, how he compares vs his peers for at least 9-10 years as opposed to 3.

Backing up, I love how it's more important to you that they were "35+ and nearing retirement" than it was that some of them are Hall of Famers, and that all were among the Norris and post-season all-star vote getters those seasons - plenty of finalists/nominees among them, no less. Also, even if we meet in the middle and consider Niedermayer and Blake more or less equally offensively, can we also agree that we've therefore established that both should be considered better offensively than Chara - the subject of comparison in this thread? That is the end game here, right, not just having a poopy on for someone who simply wasn't great enough for some people?

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You will also have to quantify the state that "he's 2nd only to Lidstrom in points over the rest of his career from there" because from 00/01-09/10 I see him 4th in raw points and 8th in PpG.
Or from 01/02-09/10 he is 3rd in raw and 7th in PpG.
Gonchar is beating him by a country mile in both comparisons, 50+ more points in 50+ less games on both counts.
And you picked '00/01 to begin with because... ? "From there" means after the "injury derailment", not before, very obviously. Even if you claim the wording to be unclear, simply reading two or three preceding posts would have clearly shown you that if Niedermayer was ever off anyone's radar as one of the premier defensemen in the league, my contention is that it certainly wasn't any time leading up to being a 25 minute/night Cup champion defenseman in '00 (who also led NJ defensemen in scoring when they won back in '95, btw), who was 8th in points for the entire 3 year stretch leading up to it, and it wasn't after leading the team and the playoffs in spring of '03 - after which he is 2nd only to Lidstrom in points between then and retirement six seasons later.

Pretty sure that sufficiently quantifies what you're asking, even if it's just the same information a second time.


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09-29-2013, 01:59 PM
  #114
vadim sharifijanov
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^ '00, '01, '02, and '03 are the regular seasons where rafalski took over niedermayer's offensive responsibilities.

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09-29-2013, 02:19 PM
  #115
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^ '00, '01, '02, and '03 are the regular seasons where rafalski took over niedermayer's offensive responsibilities.
That's a fun thing to just lay out in blanket terms, as if the alternative was to NOT give someone else that role, and play with one less defenseman on the powerplay while Niedermayer was out injured/recovering, or whatever. Interestingly, that still never actually translated into Rafalski spending more time on the ice than Niedermayer on a per game basis - even between injuries those years. And then there are the two successful Cup runs in that time frame, which, regardless of whatever either's "role" was, were both Niedermayer>Rafalski.

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09-29-2013, 02:22 PM
  #116
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That's a fun thing to just lay out in blanket terms, as if the alternative was to NOT give someone else that role, and play with one less defenseman on the powerplay while Niedermayer was out injured/recovering, or whatever. Interestingly, that still never actually translated into Rafalski spending more time on the ice than Niedermayer on a per game basis - even between injuries those years. And then there are the two successful Cup runs in that time frame, which, regardless of whatever either's "role" was, were both Niedermayer>Rafalski.
After Rafalski took over as the QB of the PP late in 2000, he stayed in that role through 2003-04 (when they were something of co-QBs) regardless of Niedermayer's health. He also remained Scott Stevens' partner, regardless of Niedermayer's health.

I don't think that either Rafalski or Niedermayer stood out over the other in the 2000 playoffs. Rafalski was much better in 2001; Niedermayer much better in 2003.

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09-29-2013, 02:32 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Wait, wait. Niedermayer played 17 seasons in the NHL, I'm saying look at 10 of them, others are saying look at an injury-affected 3 of them, and I'm cherry picking? Gold Jerry, gold. "Only" 8th in production during that 3 year stretch of the DPE, competing with HoF offensive defensemen having seasons contributing to their HoF cases, plus at least the last 6 years of his career. Which is to say, how he compares vs his peers for at least 9-10 years as opposed to 3.

Backing up, I love how it's more important to you that they were "35+ and nearing retirement" than it was that some of them are Hall of Famers, and that all were among the Norris and post-season all-star vote getters those seasons - plenty of finalists/nominees among them, no less. Also, even if we meet in the middle and consider Niedermayer and Blake more or less equally offensively, can we also agree that we've therefore established that both should be considered better offensively than Chara - the subject of comparison in this thread? That is the end game here, right, not just having a poopy on for someone who simply wasn't great enough for some people?
First of all, that some of these guys were post 35 and close to retirement yet still placing high amongst Norris and AS voting should be a red flag right there.
What's that say about the "next generation" and their inability to push out or even match what these aging, out of their prime stars are doing?
My point was the only reason you can come on here and say Nieds was still doing ok despite the injuries woes during that 3 year stretch was because it was a low point for offensive D-men in general for the reasons I gave.
If Nieds has the same stretch a few years earlier he gets buried so deep you would need an entire excavation team for a week to find him.

Second, YOU provided the 3 year cherry pick that I in turn cherry picked to death.

Quote:
And you picked '00/01 to begin with because... ? "From there" means after the "injury derailment", not before, very obviously. Even if you claim the wording to be unclear, simply reading two or three preceding posts would have clearly shown you that if Niedermayer was ever off anyone's radar as one of the premier defensemen in the league, my contention is that it certainly wasn't any time leading up to being a 25 minute/night Cup champion defenseman in '00 (who also led NJ defensemen in scoring when they won back in '95, btw), who was 8th in points for the entire 3 year stretch leading up to it, and it wasn't after leading the team and the playoffs in spring of '03 - after which he is 2nd only to Lidstrom in points between then and retirement six seasons later.

Pretty sure that sufficiently quantifies what you're asking, even if it's just the same information a second time.
I provided BOTH the 00/01-09/10 AND the 01/02-09/10 stats because that was the time frame you seemed to be indicating.
So now you are saying from when to when? Because you mention 6 years to retirement so that should be 02/03-09/10 no? Or is there some reason why 02/03 is being skipped?
During that stretch from 02/03-09/10 Nieds is once again 3rd in raw and 7th in PpG.

Even going with 03/04-09/10 he might be be 2nd in raw but he is exactly 1 whole point ahead of Gonchar despite Gonchar playing almost 60 less games and is 4th in PpG over that stretch.


So how about you clearly and exactly state what stretch of years you want to go with so there is no further misunderstandings on my part k

Also remind me again exactly what point you are trying to make because if it's that you believe Niedermayer should be considered an Elite offensive D-man, we're going to be at this for a long ass time.
An Elite D-man at times, no problem. Elite offensively...nuh uh


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 09-29-2013 at 02:37 PM.
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09-29-2013, 02:34 PM
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I don't think that either Rafalski or Niedermayer stood out over the other in the 2000 playoffs. Rafalski was much better in 2001
Well let's put it this way. Niedermayer played 4 minutes/night more than Rafalski one year, 2 minutes/night more the next. Yeah, in '01, with Niedermayer having missed 25+ games between holding out, having knee surgery, and being concussed, Rafalski's 18 points shine brightly. Why are we still talking about '00/01 though?? Yes, yes, the worst and most injury-affected season of Niedermayer's career needs a deeper level of scrutiny before we can move forward in good conscience!

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09-29-2013, 02:41 PM
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Well let's put it this way. Niedermayer played 4 minutes/night more than Rafalski one year, 2 minutes/night more the next. Yeah, in '01, with Niedermayer having missed 25+ games between holding out, having knee surgery, and being concussed, Rafalski's 18 points shine brightly. Why are we still talking about '00/01 though?? Yes, yes, the worst and most injury-affected season of Niedermayer's career needs a deeper level of scrutiny before we can move forward in good conscience!
Kind of back to the point of this thread, Niedermayer was probably a top 20 defenseman in the league at the time (as was Rafalski - there's a reason the Devils were such a good team), but he was not close to top 5. He definitely wasn't as good as he would be in 2003. It was a mental thing - Niedermayer definitely had the physical tools all along, but he didn't play with intensity and would make mental errors that Rafalski wouldn't make.

I really don't care about their minutes though - minutes played by a defenseman are useful to look at, but are only part of the picture - they show more a coach's expectation of play than they do play itself - and Rafalski was still a rookie in 2000, albeit an overaged one. The difference in minutes in 2001 is negligible anyway when you look at what their roles were.

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09-29-2013, 02:47 PM
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Kind of back to the point of this thread, Niedermayer was probably a top 20 defenseman in the league at the time (as was Rafalski - there's a reason the Devils were such a good team), but he was not close to top 5. He definitely wasn't as good as he would be in 2003. It was a mental thing - Niedermayer definitely had the physical tools all along, but he didn't play with intensity and would make mental errors that Rafalski wouldn't make.

I really don't care about their minutes though - minutes played by a defenseman are useful to look at, but are only part of the picture - they show more a coach's expectation of play than they do play itself - and Rafalski was still a rookie in 2000, albeit an overaged one. The difference in minutes in 2001 is negligible anyway when you look at what their roles were.
Well not all of his time missed was injury related, there is a 10 game suspension in there and the only reason he was playing 25+ minutes a game in 03/04 was because of injuries to both Stevens and Rafalski. Stevens missed over half the season and had to retire while Rafalski missed 13 games and played injured for a good chunk.

He jumped from around 23-24 mins a game previously to 26 mins in 03/04

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09-29-2013, 02:49 PM
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First of all, that some of these guys were post 35 and close to retirement yet still placing high amongst Norris and AS voting should be a red flag right there.
What's that say about the "next generation" and their inability to push out or even match what these aging, out of their prime stars are doing?
My point was the only reason you can come on here and say Nieds was still doing ok despite the injuries woes during that 3 year stretch was because it was a low point for offensive D-men in general for the reasons I gave.
If Nieds has the same stretch a few years earlier he gets buried so deep you would need an entire excavation team for a week to find him.

Second, YOU provided the 3 year cherry pick that I in turn cherry picked to death.
That's a lot of typing which makes absolutely no sense, lol. Whatever you think about his points and all-star votes vs great players having great seasons, he was a 25 minute/night guy the whole time, and for good reason. And good enough offensively to hold his own in a 1-on-1 comparison against someone like Chara - which is the only thing I've been trying to assert since joining the conversation.

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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
I provided BOTH the 00/01-09/10 AND the 01/02-09/10 stats because that was the time frame you seemed to be indicating.
So now you are saying from when to when? Because you mention 6 years to retirement so that should be 02/03-09/10 no? Or is there some reason why 02/03 is being skipped?
During that stretch from 02/03-09/10 Nieds is once again 3rd in raw and 7th in PpG.

Even going with 03/04-09/10 he might be be 2nd in raw but he is exactly 1 whole point ahead of Gonchar despite Gonchar playing almost 60 less games and is 4th in PpG over that stretch.

So how about you clearly and exactly state what stretch of years you want to go with so there is no further misunderstandings on my part k
Listen, I'm not overly concerned about how or why you're having confusion with the time frame involved. Include '02/03 if you like. I included the post season from the start, but if you want to talk about their equal production in the regular season, despite neck nerve issues possibly associated with the past back injury, and with Rafalski in a 1.5 minute/night lesser role, feel free.

Bottom line, I quantified what I was talking about from the beginning with someone else, as you asked, so it's probably time to accept that. And if you're so concerned about Gonchar with 1 less point in 40 fewer games, how about I point to Larry Murphy at #5 with just 3 more points in 19 more games, and let's move on.

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09-29-2013, 02:52 PM
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I really don't care about their minutes though - minutes played by a defenseman are useful to look at, but are only part of the picture - they show more a coach's expectation of play than they do play itself.
Unless you win two Cups, and you're a leading minute eater and/or leading provider of offense and/or defense on those squads. Seems to me that's a pretty consistently used argument in plenty of the all-time discussion threads, but apparently it's weird for me to bring it up in Niedermayer's defense here, lol.

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09-29-2013, 02:53 PM
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He jumped from around 23-24 mins a game previously to 26 mins in 03/04

And won the Norris, pretty much without Stevens+Rafalski, like you said.

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09-29-2013, 02:57 PM
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Unless you win two Cups, and you're a leading minute eater and/or leading provider of offense and/or defense on those squads. Seems to me that's a pretty consistently used argument in plenty of the all-time discussion threads, but apparently it's weird for me to bring it up in Niedermayer's defense here, lol.
Are you disagreeing with my position that Niedermayer was probably a top 20 defenseman in the league at the time, but nowhere near top 5?

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09-29-2013, 03:04 PM
  #125
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Are you disagreeing with my position that Niedermayer was probably a top 20 defenseman in the league at the time, but nowhere near top 5?
How could I argue with anything as arbitrarily vague and subjective as that?

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