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Old
02-25-2014, 06:01 PM
  #276
BoxOfChocolates
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffL19 View Post
They need to stock up on Jamie McGinn-type players this draft and follow the Chicago model of drafting players with solid 2-way play and size that can step in to depth roles in the coming years.

Our top-6 is already more than set, we need more depth guys with more potential and skill than Malone and Heard to play in the bottom-six and push out the Mitchells and the Cliches and the this year's McLeod. Condon might be one of those guys.

Maybe it's just me but I feel like there are way too many tweener and/or boom-or-bust players in our forward prospect pool. It's time to start drafting more safely.
Drafting safely?? That's what we've been doing ever since Pracey took over. If anything we need to take a riskier offensive player.

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02-25-2014, 06:11 PM
  #277
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The team that drafted Kyle Beach is drafting safely!?

Anyhow, no. You need to roll the dice every now and then. In fact, Pracey has from time to time. Hishon was a bit of a gamble. So was Wolski. Yes, both were drafted low in the first but both had red flags regardless.

You wanna see a team that drafts safe, look at Nashville. No outright busts per se, but no fancy stars either. They need more of the latter.

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02-25-2014, 06:15 PM
  #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffL19 View Post
They need to stock up on Jamie McGinn-type players this draft and follow the Chicago model of drafting players with solid 2-way play and size that can step in to depth roles in the coming years.

Our top-6 is already more than set, we need more depth guys with more potential and skill than Malone and Heard to play in the bottom-six and push out the Mitchells and the Cliches and the this year's McLeod. Condon might be one of those guys.

Maybe it's just me but I feel like there are way too many tweener and/or boom-or-bust players in our forward prospect pool. It's time to start drafting more safely.
Are you saying the key to safe drafting is having a wider variety of Condon types?

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02-25-2014, 06:16 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by BoxOfChocolates View Post
Drafting safely?? That's what we've been doing ever since Pracey took over. If anything we need to take a riskier offensive player.
Just want to make sure I understand what you said, I'm going to ask you to confirm this statement...because it sounds to me like you said we need to go off the board to address an area of strength? I could understand that comment if you were looking to help LEM...but if you are looking to help the AVs...I think you need to get better coaching and better defensive tools. The Avs could be potentially flush with offensive talent for 10 years if they can just keep Dutchy, ROR, Stastny and MacK under contract.

What they really need is some defensive depth...now and in the future. With the offensive fire-power they already have in the NHL they can fill in with complementary players via trades and FA. That defense though needs some improvement.

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02-25-2014, 06:49 PM
  #280
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The Avs need more high upside offensive players. Not risky per se because they have enough long shots to fill that category. So we are not talking in the 3rd and below range but if a first or second could go toward someone who might have fallen a bit but has big upside that might be the perfect fit. That's what really is missing in the prospect pool because they have no future offensive options other than long shots. Defensive depth in the prospect pool really isn't what's lacking.

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02-25-2014, 06:49 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by BoxOfChocolates View Post
Drafting safely?? That's what we've been doing ever since Pracey took over. If anything we need to take a riskier offensive player.
I've often wondered how it would work if the Avs drafted a player with a wooden leg.

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02-25-2014, 07:01 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Tigervixxen View Post
The Avs need more high upside offensive players. Not risky per se because they have enough long shots to fill that category. So we are not talking in the 3rd and below range but if a first or second could go toward someone who might have fallen a bit but has big upside that might be the perfect fit. That's what really is missing in the prospect pool because they have no future offensive options other than long shots. Defensive depth in the prospect pool really isn't what's lacking.
This is what I meant.

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02-25-2014, 07:55 PM
  #283
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I like your list. Goldobin has been great, and I expect him to be able to score at the NHL level, but I have to admit that the Russian factor does scare me on a 1st round pick. I don't know enough about Goldobin's personality to know if I'm justified in my feeling though. I still wouldn't be opposed to taking him if Pracey thinks he's the right guy.

Isn't Fiala a pretty physical player though? My impression of him from the WJC was that he is. I definitely like him as well.

Ho-Sang is the one player on your list that I want nothing to do with. His skill level is amazing, but he just doesn't seem like he'll be a great team guy. I'd think Patrick will steer clear of him.
I don't know too much of Goldobin's personality, but I know it isn't Radulov, SOB, or Perry iffy.

Fiala is strong with the puck, but really doesn't go in the corners to hit. Right now he is one dimensional player, but he has some really awesome talent. Plays similar game like MacKinnon, but won't be as talented of course.

I never heard any bad things of Ho-Sang, he seems like he has Joey Hishon's type of character IMO. If you have anything to say otherwise, I would love to read it (because in reality I really do not know)!!!! If you want to talk about highly talented kids with terrible personality, go look at Anthony DeLuca.

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Originally Posted by henchman24 View Post
Be prepared to be disappointed, while I won't be totally on board with the pick... Fabbri is a Pracey player to the letter.

Totally agree, it is splitting hairs from mid 1st up to even the early 3rd that having as many picks as possible in that range would give more chances to find the few gems in that range.
Oh absolutely Fabbri is the perfect Pracey qualifications, only good thing is Fabbri isn't a sucky hockey player (would be a top 30 player if he was 5'11/6'0). But I will die inside if we do pick him.

I really wanted to see some overagers last draft, but none came out of it. This time though Hench, I would rather draft the Frk of the 2014 draft than the Mitchell Heard of 2014 IMO.

On the top of my head the only overager I would love to get is Kahun.

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Originally Posted by chet1926 View Post
Don't get suckered in by the name, Lemieux is a 2nd to early 3rd pick in my book. You're right his compete is through the roof but skills are a little lacking he gets a lot of his points by being stronger than most junior players.

I would be disappointed if we took him in the first round but I'd be fine with him in the 2nd or 3rd round.

This draft needs to be focused on skill players. We have plenty of d prospects, goalie prospects and 3rd/4th line prospects. We are lacking in the skilled wingers prospects and this needs to be addressed with at least 3 or 4 picks this year. Obviously if a player falls in the first rd you take BPA but after that we kind of need the focus on the skill wingers.
Problem Chet is I know there is going to be a team (cough*Red Wings*cough) who's going to draft him, develop him properly, and he'll become a 30 goal scorer. Just watch this is what's going to happen. I totally get why you don't want him as a 1st, but actually I'm fine with Lemieux as a late 20s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avs71 View Post
Are you saying the key to safe drafting is having a wider variety of Condon types?
I know you're not trying to knock on Condon, but he is a pretty damn good player.

Pracey has drafted both safe and risky, a good combination to keep us satisfied, but I wish he would be a little more open to the other leagues (both European and North American).







A lot of you guys are saying is to draft more high offensive players with size, well this isn't the draft for it except if you like your under 6'0" midgets. This draft doesn't have 6'5" Cory Perrys', you guys are going to have to choose if you want a safe player like Brendan Lemieux who will have the body of a Greek God or if you want a high talented Dawf....


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Old
02-25-2014, 08:08 PM
  #284
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Would love the Avs to pick up Brendan Lemieux, he seems like the type of player the Avs love, and those guys that have the high work ethic tend to exceed expectations. I'd much rather take a few safer picks than go for boom/bust types. Right now the Avs need to build up the prospect base, we don't have the depth to take gambles that don't pay off.

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02-25-2014, 09:36 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by BoxOfChocolates View Post
Drafting safely?? That's what we've been doing ever since Pracey took over. If anything we need to take a riskier offensive player.
Maybe in the first round he has (minus Hishon) but there are a lot of boom-or-busts or odd picks in the later rounds like Heard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
The team that drafted Kyle Beach is drafting safely!?

Anyhow, no. You need to roll the dice every now and then. In fact, Pracey has from time to time. Hishon was a bit of a gamble. So was Wolski. Yes, both were drafted low in the first but both had red flags regardless.

You wanna see a team that drafts safe, look at Nashville. No outright busts per se, but no fancy stars either. They need more of the latter.
Did Pracey draft Wolski?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avs71 View Post
Are you saying the key to safe drafting is having a wider variety of Condon types?
Condon is a good prospect, he just doesn't get much exposure because of the league he plays in. But yes, we should draft more well-rounded players like him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigervixxen View Post
The Avs need more high upside offensive players. Not risky per se because they have enough long shots to fill that category. So we are not talking in the 3rd and below range but if a first or second could go toward someone who might have fallen a bit but has big upside that might be the perfect fit. That's what really is missing in the prospect pool because they have no future offensive options other than long shots. Defensive depth in the prospect pool really isn't what's lacking.
The top-6 has Duchene, ROR, MacK, Landeskog and Staz. I don't really see any room for another good offensive winger or two with McGinn, Tangs and PAP still around. It's hard to find high offensive upside players outside of the first round, because usually they have glaring weaknesses in other facets of their game so they fall to the lower rounds making them risky boom-or-busts.

Basically guys, the entire point of my post was that from an offensive perspective, we are pretty much overloaded in the NHL and creating a logjam of offensive forwards in the system won't help. Even with PAP and Tangs injured we still managed to put together two very good scoring lines.

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02-25-2014, 11:40 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by GeoffL19 View Post
Maybe in the first round he has (minus Hishon) but there are a lot of boom-or-busts or odd picks in the later rounds like Heard.



Did Pracey draft Wolski?



Condon is a good prospect, he just doesn't get much exposure because of the league he plays in. But yes, we should draft more well-rounded players like him.



The top-6 has Duchene, ROR, MacK, Landeskog and Staz. I don't really see any room for another good offensive winger or two with McGinn, Tangs and PAP still around. It's hard to find high offensive upside players outside of the first round, because usually they have glaring weaknesses in other facets of their game so they fall to the lower rounds making them risky boom-or-busts.

Basically guys, the entire point of my post was that from an offensive perspective, we are pretty much overloaded in the NHL and creating a logjam of offensive forwards in the system won't help. Even with PAP and Tangs injured we still managed to put together two very good scoring lines.
The Avs best prospects are defensemen currently. In this context, my definition of a peospect is a player not on the. Avs roster.

The Avs need to take the best players independent of position. They need talent to start flowing through the pipeline now that a core is reasonably established and it seems they'll have high draft picks less and less.

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02-26-2014, 12:14 AM
  #287
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The top-6 has Duchene, ROR, MacK, Landeskog and Staz. I don't really see any room for another good offensive winger or two with McGinn, Tangs and PAP still around. It's hard to find high offensive upside players outside of the first round, because usually they have glaring weaknesses in other facets of their game so they fall to the lower rounds making them risky boom-or-busts.

Basically guys, the entire point of my post was that from an offensive perspective, we are pretty much overloaded in the NHL and creating a logjam of offensive forwards in the system won't help. Even with PAP and Tangs injured we still managed to put together two very good scoring lines.
That's the thing, the forward group looks nice right now and we don't need a forward called up right now but prospects are not for right now. Tanguay may never come back and probably won't go beyond his contract, PA has two years left, is on the other side of 30 and might still be trade bait, who knows about Stastny, etc. Things could look a lot different a year from now. it's great we have depth to handle injuries and juggle lines right now but we've also been very lucky to have sustained only one major injury the entire season, even PA's wasn't that major as he was only out for 3 weeks. If one or two call ups were counted on to fill real roles there would be a major problem. It should tell you something that Roy would prefer to play Holden at forward than to call anyone up.

The team in Lake Erie is a disaster, especially on the offensive front. they've had injuries of their own but they are relatively healthy right now and can't score goals. This is not just a Lake Erie problem but its an Avs problem looking through the long term lense. The team is comprised of a few career AHL vets and 20 year old long shot prospects and next year we are looking at the same with the addition of a couple more low round forwards added to the team. Obviously part of the reason for this is our high end prospects play for the Avs and that's fantastic but moving forward we shouldn't be in the position to get high NHL ready picks. We need blue chip talent in the pool that can eventually get called up and become a permenant part of the roster. Good teams have depth in the minors for either injury fill ins or when they need to step in as cheap replacements when the team loses a FA.

I'm just agreeing that some offensive upside would be nice in a first or second round pick. Might also make more sense to go for a European so that they are not bound to the must stay in juniors until they are 20 rule.

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02-26-2014, 12:41 AM
  #288
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I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but if they widen the focus and start looking at drafting European talent apart from the odd Joachim Nermark pick, they might grab some gems.

The plus with Euro prospects is that you can play them in the AHL as teenagers, the downside of course is that they might not want to and head back to Europe.

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02-26-2014, 01:33 AM
  #289
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Originally Posted by expatriated_texan View Post
Just want to make sure I understand what you said, I'm going to ask you to confirm this statement...because it sounds to me like you said we need to go off the board to address an area of strength? I could understand that comment if you were looking to help LEM...but if you are looking to help the AVs...I think you need to get better coaching and better defensive tools. The Avs could be potentially flush with offensive talent for 10 years if they can just keep Dutchy, ROR, Stastny and MacK under contract.

What they really need is some defensive depth...now and in the future. With the offensive fire-power they already have in the NHL they can fill in with complementary players via trades and FA. That defense though needs some improvement.
I don't want too many defensemen drafted in the next two years. Defensive depth is nice, but inexperienced defensemen doesn't help you win a cup. This is the same mentality the Pens had for a few years, and have had a glut of depth defensemen lost to waivers and are still pretty weak in forward depth.

Chicago on the other hand are basically the exact opposite, with them having a ridiculous amount of forward depth from the prospects. They lost a ridiculous amount of talent the past few years and still have been able to have depth from all their prospects.

By the time we're contending for the cup, Siemens, Bigras, and Butcher should be in the lineup or knocking on the door. We don't need half the d-core to be under 25 while contending for a cup.

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02-26-2014, 01:47 AM
  #290
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I hope we draft McKeown, or Honka.

Dream pick would be Draisaitl or Ho-Sang.

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02-26-2014, 03:05 AM
  #291
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I never heard any bad things of Ho-Sang, he seems like he has Joey Hishon's type of character IMO. If you have anything to say otherwise, I would love to read it (because in reality I really do not know)!!!! If you want to talk about highly talented kids with terrible personality, go look at Anthony DeLuca.
You mean Anthony DeAngelo, right?

Anyway, on Ho-Sang, I don't have any links to substantiate what I am saying, and these issues seemed to be more prominent last year than this year, but I heard a lot of rumblings (can't remember exactly where, but I seem to recall Woodlief being one of the sources) that he played selfishly, did a poor job of using his linemates, much less elevating their play, and may have been a locker room distraction as well. He is a guy who has always had top 5 skill in just about any draft and isn't extraordinarily small or slow, but until recently wasn't rated better than a late first rounder on any credible list.

To me, these are red flags. Even if these rumblings are untrue, my feeling is that his character will be closer to Wolski's than MacKinnon, Duchene, or Landeskog's.

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02-26-2014, 03:11 AM
  #292
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Ho-Sang is one of the biggest show-boats in the entire CHL, he's nothing like Hishon. He also has a bad tendency to play like he has blinders on.

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02-26-2014, 09:08 AM
  #293
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I really wanted to see some overagers last draft, but none came out of it. This time though Hench, I would rather draft the Frk of the 2014 draft than the Mitchell Heard of 2014 IMO.

On the top of my head the only overager I would love to get is Kahun.
I think picking an overager in the first 2, really even 3 rounds is pretty much a waste. That is why I wanted it in the 4th-6th round. It adds some depth where the draft is a complete crap shoot anyway, and can hopefully add some depth to the organization at a quicker rate.

1-2 a year seems to be what Pracey likes to do. Last year it was Ben Storm, 2012 Heard and Smith, 2010 Walker, and 2009 Millan. So we will probably see at least one. Cave would probably be my top choice, but there are plenty of options out there.

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Originally Posted by Tigervixxen View Post
That's the thing, the forward group looks nice right now and we don't need a forward called up right now but prospects are not for right now. Tanguay may never come back and probably won't go beyond his contract, PA has two years left, is on the other side of 30 and might still be trade bait, who knows about Stastny, etc. Things could look a lot different a year from now. it's great we have depth to handle injuries and juggle lines right now but we've also been very lucky to have sustained only one major injury the entire season, even PA's wasn't that major as he was only out for 3 weeks. If one or two call ups were counted on to fill real roles there would be a major problem. It should tell you something that Roy would prefer to play Holden at forward than to call anyone up.

The team in Lake Erie is a disaster, especially on the offensive front. they've had injuries of their own but they are relatively healthy right now and can't score goals. This is not just a Lake Erie problem but its an Avs problem looking through the long term lense. The team is comprised of a few career AHL vets and 20 year old long shot prospects and next year we are looking at the same with the addition of a couple more low round forwards added to the team. Obviously part of the reason for this is our high end prospects play for the Avs and that's fantastic but moving forward we shouldn't be in the position to get high NHL ready picks. We need blue chip talent in the pool that can eventually get called up and become a permenant part of the roster. Good teams have depth in the minors for either injury fill ins or when they need to step in as cheap replacements when the team loses a FA.

I'm just agreeing that some offensive upside would be nice in a first or second round pick. Might also make more sense to go for a European so that they are not bound to the must stay in juniors until they are 20 rule.
I don't remember the exact statistic, but the gist of it was that a majority top 6 forwards rarely spend more than a year in the AHL and a lot skip it completely. I'm not worried about Lake Erie having much high end forward talent, so much as I am for finding replacements on the wing going forward by any means. Tangs might only have a couple years left in him, PAP isn't a long-term solution, and McGinn is more of a tweener than a true top 6 forward. It is easier on the whole organization to be able to develop that talent from with in, but with 4 of the 6 (possibly 5 with Stastny) locked up for the foreseeable future it is possible to ignore the issue for a couple years and fill in with free agency. Now this wouldn't be my preferred course of action (I have wanted a good forward prospect for a while), but I would understand if the organization still concentrated on finding that elite defensemen because they have so much top 6 forward depth in the NHL.


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02-26-2014, 10:31 AM
  #294
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I don't want too many defensemen drafted in the next two years. Defensive depth is nice, but inexperienced defensemen doesn't help you win a cup. This is the same mentality the Pens had for a few years, and have had a glut of depth defensemen lost to waivers and are still pretty weak in forward depth.

Chicago on the other hand are basically the exact opposite, with them having a ridiculous amount of forward depth from the prospects. They lost a ridiculous amount of talent the past few years and still have been able to have depth from all their prospects.

By the time we're contending for the cup, Siemens, Bigras, and Butcher should be in the lineup or knocking on the door. We don't need half the d-core to be under 25 while contending for a cup.
Geertsen too

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02-26-2014, 12:38 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by nanzenkills View Post
You mean Anthony DeAngelo, right?

Anyway, on Ho-Sang, I don't have any links to substantiate what I am saying, and these issues seemed to be more prominent last year than this year, but I heard a lot of rumblings (can't remember exactly where, but I seem to recall Woodlief being one of the sources) that he played selfishly, did a poor job of using his linemates, much less elevating their play, and may have been a locker room distraction as well. He is a guy who has always had top 5 skill in just about any draft and isn't extraordinarily small or slow, but until recently wasn't rated better than a late first rounder on any credible list.

To me, these are red flags. Even if these rumblings are untrue, my feeling is that his character will be closer to Wolski's than MacKinnon, Duchene, or Landeskog's.
Okay thanks for the report, I can see why these are red flags to you. I have been able to watch him a couple time this season plus the prospect game and he really didn't play with a selfish attitude compared to last season. But I think I will ask Brock who sees him much more than I do.



No, Anthony DeLuca.

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=118662

The Q scouts from my team say he is one of the biggest **********, but insanely talented kid (some say his talent level can match the likes of Drouin and MacKinnon). And it doesn't start with him, his parents are ********** as well.

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02-26-2014, 01:17 PM
  #296
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Did Pracey draft Wolski?
I guess he didn't, my bad. He didn't become Director of Amateur Scouting until 2008, Wolski was drafted in '04.

Geez, it's been a decade already? How time flies...

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02-27-2014, 04:16 PM
  #297
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Listened to some of Dater's podcast yesterday, he says they really want more right handed forwards and will look that way in the draft.

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02-27-2014, 06:26 PM
  #298
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Listened to some of Dater's podcast yesterday, he says they really want more right handed forwards and will look that way in the draft.
If this is the case, I will be very disappointed if they don't find a way to draft Austin Poganski.

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02-27-2014, 07:12 PM
  #299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigervixxen View Post
Listened to some of Dater's podcast yesterday, he says they really want more right handed forwards and will look that way in the draft.
It seems odd that they would share this but be tight lipped about other things.

It's like...

Dater: hey, I was just wondering if you could give a little so something on any upcoming trades.

Avs contact: sorry, we've got nothing to share with you.

Dater: Ok, what about the draft.

Avs contact: They're looking for right handed wingers who are blonde and from Latvia.

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02-27-2014, 08:12 PM
  #300
nanzenkills
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Averick View Post
It seems odd that they would share this but be tight lipped about other things.

It's like...

Dater: hey, I was just wondering if you could give a little so something on any upcoming trades.

Avs contact: sorry, we've got nothing to share with you.

Dater: Ok, what about the draft.

Avs contact: They're looking for right handed wingers who are blonde and from Latvia.
I'd imagine that Dater's probably speculating.

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