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Old
12-14-2013, 02:00 PM
  #101
AvsfanJack
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Originally Posted by GeoffL19 View Post
Our D prospects are fine. Bigras and Siemens are going to be NHLers soon, Geertsen and Beaupre are potential bottom-pairing defensive d-men, Young and Lauridson are dark horses, Westlund has all the time in the world to develop in Sweden and one of Barrie, Elliott or Butcher will hopefully pan out as an NHL caliber PMD.

Now obviously they could use a couple TWD in the system since the closest they have to one of those is Bigras, but it's not nearly as bad as our forward pool.
Bigras is a stud, only got to see him once this year but he was defensively responsible, quick on his skates and jumped up into the play when his offense couldn't get anything done. His hockey IQ is solid, he rarely makes big mistakes. And he plays on a pathetic team.

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12-14-2013, 02:25 PM
  #102
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I dont understand the complaing , that we have no topp 6 forwards in our prospects.

Matt Duchene 22
Nathan MacKinnon 18
Ryan O'Reilly 22
Gabriel Landeskog 21

are they going to retire soon ?
Of course it's not a problem that our top end prospects are playing in the NHL. The point more is who the heck would the Avs call up on an injury replacement? If several of the top 6 go down, the pool of available talent in Lake Erie is quite thin, I think that is a worthwhile concern.

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12-14-2013, 02:55 PM
  #103
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I had a great detailed post, but my internet crashed with firefox and lost all of it. This day has gotten from bad to worst.

Personally I think Avs are trying to build their team like the Pittsburgh Penguins, but I think Chicago is a better example when comparing forwards.

Jonathan Toews, C [3rd overall]
Gabriel Landeskog, LW [2nd overall]

Note: Even though I hate Toews, I think he will be the better player of the two, but its close.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Patrick Kane, RW [1st overall]
Matt Duchene, C [3rd overall]

Note: Kane is probably better, but again not out of the ball park of talent.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Marian Hossa, RW [Free Agency]
Nathan MacKinnon, C [1st overall]

Note: MacKinnon will be better or on par with Hossa's offensive game, Hossa has a better defensive game.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brandon Saad, LW [2nd round]
Ryan O'Reilly, C/W [2nd round]

Note: Chicago's drafting starts to get thin here, ROR clearly.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Patrick Sharp, LW [Free Agency, I believe]
PA Parenteau, LW [Free Agency]

Note: Sharp is the much better player, but Parenteau can hold his own as well.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Andrew Shaw, C [5th round]
Garrett Meurs, C [5th round]
Joseph Blandisi, RW [6th round]
Mitchell Heard, C [2nd round]

Note:
- Meurs is a pretty dang underrated player and to me he has 3rd line NHL talent.
- Blandisi has ROR's work ethic and sky is the limit for these type of players. IMO he has 3rd line NHL potential as well.
- Heard plays more of Shaw's game, but IMO he will be a solid 4th line player.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Marcus Kruger, C/W [5th round]
Michael Sgarbossa, C [Trade]

Note: Both players are solid on both ends of the ice. Kruger is probably a safer/more defensive player, but Sgarbossa has probably more offensive talent.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Teuvo Teravainen, C [1st round]
Joey Hishon, C [1st round]

Note: Both players are a wash talent wise

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jeremy Morin, RW [2nd round]
Colin Smith, C [7th round]

Note: Morin might be better, but Smith hasn't shown his full talent IMO.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kris Versteeg, LW [Drafted, left, traded]
Jamie McGinn, LW [Trade]

Note: Wash

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mark McNeill, C
Paul Stastny, C

Note: Similar players, but no chance McNeill ends up as good as Stostny.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Phillip Danault, C [1st round]
Michael Bournival, C/W [3rd round]

Note: Bournival not ours anymore, but both players play a similar style. Small edge to Danault.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brandon Pirri, C [2nd round]
Troy Bourke, LW [3rd round]

Note: Pirri probably has more offensive potential, but Bourke isn't far behind and has better two-way game.


Ryan Hartman is the only one who we lack, but Fillip Forsberg or Grigirenko with our Varlamov 1st rounder could have easily matched and surpass his talent level. Also think about how many more draft picks they have had compared to us, the ratio has to be 2:1 in the last three drafts.

- Nate Condon: PK specialist, NHL potential.
- Brad Malone: NHL/AHL boardline player.
- Michael Clarke: Might have some hidden potential. Looked surprisingly good at training camp. Might be treading bust territory
- Luke Moffatt: Having a solid year, might being showing some hidden potential, not sold on it though.
- Andrew Agozzino: Boom or bust player.
- Paul Carey: Developing into a really solid 3rd line NHL player.

I know all the players I listed here and above won't make it, but I will say that we have matched a cup winning team core piece with core piece.

Only differences are,

- Their core is much older and more experienced
- Their depth players are much older and more experienced.
- All their defensive prospects are much more experienced, can't compare Seabrook, Keith, Hjarm, to the likes of Bigras, Elliott, Barrie, Siemens, Geertsen just yet.
- Goaltending is close, but edge to us.

So I will say that you guys are crying over nothing, Pracey has been great with what he has been GIVEN. I still think we have a really underrated prospect group IMO.


Last edited by S E P H: 12-14-2013 at 03:34 PM.
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Old
12-14-2013, 03:36 PM
  #104
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Only difference is that Chicago's defense is superior to ours. That's one thing we really need to upgrade, but I guess everyone knew that already. Great post SEPH! Interesting comparision.

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12-14-2013, 03:40 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado Avalanche View Post
Only difference is that Chicago's defense is superior to ours. That's one thing we really need to upgrade, but I guess everyone knew that already. Great post SEPH! Interesting comparision.
I tried to make it as non-biased as possible, but I agree with the people who say that we should probably spend our whole draft on forwards and increase the forward depth in the prospect pool.


Last edited by S E P H: 12-14-2013 at 03:47 PM.
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Old
12-14-2013, 03:52 PM
  #106
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Excellent post SEPH. Defensively the Avs need some savvy drafting or free agent signings though to come even close to Chicago. We have Johnson, they had Seabrook, Keith, and Hjalmarsson.


I also think the difference between Toews and Landeskog will be significant.


The Hawks hit a home run with the Sharp trade and Hossa was an incredible signing. The Avs need to get lucky and make moves like that.

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Old
12-14-2013, 04:00 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
Excellent post SEPH. Defensively the Avs need some savvy drafting or free agent signings though to come even close to Chicago. We have Johnson, they had Seabrook, Keith, and Hjalmarsson.


I also think the difference between Toews and Landeskog will be significant.


The Hawks hit a home run with the Sharp trade and Hossa was an incredible signing. The Avs need to get lucky and make moves like that.
I'd say Parenteau was home run, Benoit has been very good for his price as well. Even Guenin has been very good (for his price). I think Avalanche is always looking for bargains, they don't want to overpay for someone like Clarkson, Clowe etc. I think It's just smart, unless that one player puts team over the top, maybe in that case It would make sense, otherwise Its just bad team building.

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12-14-2013, 04:03 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
Excellent post SEPH. Defensively the Avs need some savvy drafting or free agent signings though to come even close to Chicago. We have Johnson, they had Seabrook, Keith, and Hjalmarsson.


I also think the difference between Toews and Landeskog will be significant.


The Hawks hit a home run with the Sharp trade and Hossa was an incredible signing. The Avs need to get lucky and make moves like that.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00005307.html

Out of 7 picks, Avalanche drafted 5 defenseman. Hopefully next draft we will see mostly forwards. We are REALLY lacking on good WINGERS. That's something we have to fix.

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12-14-2013, 04:14 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
Excellent post SEPH. Defensively the Avs need some savvy drafting or free agent signings though to come even close to Chicago. We have Johnson, they had Seabrook, Keith, and Hjalmarsson.


I also think the difference between Toews and Landeskog will be significant.


The Hawks hit a home run with the Sharp trade and Hossa was an incredible signing. The Avs need to get lucky and make moves like that.
In one way was Chicago opposite of us.....they needed a superb free agent signing in the forward group (Hossa) while we currently need one in the defensive core.

I agree that Duchene is closer to Kane than Landeskog is to Toews, but I disagree that there is a significant difference between them IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado Avalanche View Post
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00005307.html

Out of 7 picks, Avalanche drafted 5 defenseman. Hopefully next draft we will see mostly forwards. We are REALLY lacking on good WINGERS. That's something we have to fix.
Avs philosophy is to draft centres and convert them to wingers. As we know Pracey would rather draft someone with character over a more talented player (go look at how many prospects have been captains in juniors). But I also think Pracey has big emphasis on defensive games as well. Look out all the forwards we have drafted since 2008 and you can say that MacKinnon probably has the weakest defensive game out of any of them.


Last edited by S E P H: 12-14-2013 at 04:20 PM.
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Old
12-14-2013, 06:25 PM
  #110
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What do you guys think of taking Brendan Perlini early this year? The dude is 6'2" and 205 so he doesn't have much growing to do. He's real damn fast on his skates and he's tearing it up for a crappy Niagara team this season. We could use wingers. If this kid falls to the second round, we have to grab this kid.

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12-14-2013, 06:31 PM
  #111
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@ S E P H
I agree with most of your post.

I never said that Pracey did a bad job.
And our prospect pool does suck at forward.
It is true that most of our young guys have graduated but we seriously lack depth. No one knows what will happen to Stastny.
You can not predict injury. Will McGinn get traded? What about ROR and his contract situation?

If only 1-2 guys are injured , we are in for a world of hurt.

You really can not count on Hishon right now. I love the kid.
And I hope that he pulls a David Perron. I still do not expect it.

Sgarbossa is another wildcard. Could be a good fill in for a top6 role.
But who knows?

And besides that we are not really in a position to replace anyone.
Therefore my statement that our prospect pool sucks when it comes to forwards. Do not see anything wrong with that.

I certainly would not criticize Pracey on that front after looking at our NHL roster.

We will see if he is as good at drafting defensemen as he is with forwards though. But right now? I am sold on him.

Do not get why you disagree with me on that front.


The comparison with Chicago is a little off though.
They lucked out with those retirement contracts to Keith and Hossa.
There is no way they would have won it otherwise IMO.

And a defense that can ice Keith, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson and Leddy is just not comparable to the mess the Avs have right now.

I am the biggest supporter on here when it comes to patience with this team. But I doubt that we can match this defense.

And Chicago would not be close to as good without those guys.

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12-14-2013, 06:36 PM
  #112
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Seph, I find your post misleading in the sense that we know we have a lot of good young forward talent on the NHL roster. The issue is that Chicago has had a lot of other talent come and go through their system over the past few years due to salary constraints and trades and they're seemingly always able to replace the depth guys they lose with something internally. Except for a 2C obviously.

Right now we don't have that kind of depth. Take the NHL players out of that post and our forward prospects are:

Joey Hishon - skill is there but we all know about his injury concerns
Michael Sgarbossa - wasn't given a proper look at the NHL level but I see him as a tweener type player. Don't think he brings enough to be an NHL top 6 player and definitely not suited to a bottom 6 role.
Paul Carey - career AHLer IMO. He's a hardworking guy with a really good motor but I don't see the NHL skill here.
Brad Malone - 4th line player at his best.

Garret Meurs - plays a good gritty game but is very raw and a huge long shot but obviously too soon to call.
Mitchell Heard - Don't see the skill with this guy, I think he tops out as a 4th line center who fights/takes faceoffs. He seems raw even for the AHL so even that 4th line role seems far off.
Joseph Blandisi - again very raw, long shot to make in the AHL, but obviously too soon to call.
Troy Bourke - very skilled player but very undersized. He's the most intriguing of this group of 4 guys to me but I'm concerned that he will never develop the strength to handle the NHL game physically.

Condon, Moffatt, Clarke, haven't seen them.

Personally I don't think we have much coming beyond tweeners who won't stick in the NHL long term or 4th line players.

Maybe I just have a pessimistic or overly critical view of our own prospects versus those belonging to other teams, but that's just how I see it, and I don't think I'm that far off.


The area where I agree with you most is that we certainly haven't had as many picks recently as a number of other teams. 2012 particularly we didn't have much to work with. 2010, not Pracey's fault that Hishon got hurt and Bournival got traded but it hurts our prospect depth a lot.

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12-14-2013, 09:53 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoemAvs View Post
@ S E P H
I agree with most of your post.

I never said that Pracey did a bad job.
And our prospect pool does suck at forward.
It is true that most of our young guys have graduated but we seriously lack depth. No one knows what will happen to Stastny.
You can not predict injury. Will McGinn get traded? What about ROR and his contract situation?

If only 1-2 guys are injured , we are in for a world of hurt.
If we are discussing forward depth, I agree with you. I do not agree if anyone is implying that the players we have drafted are sucky 3rd line midget Talbots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihiliste View Post
Seph, I find your post misleading in the sense that we know we have a lot of good young forward talent on the NHL roster. The issue is that Chicago has had a lot of other talent come and go through their system over the past few years due to salary constraints and trades and they're seemingly always able to replace the depth guys they lose with something internally. Except for a 2C obviously.
That is because after trading half of their roster the first time they won the Cup, majority of it was draft picks. Those drafted players are older than our depth players, I believe Paul Carey is the oldest at 23-24 years old.

Quote:
Right now we don't have that kind of depth. Take the NHL players out of that post and our forward prospects are:

Joey Hishon - skill is there but we all know about his injury concerns
Michael Sgarbossa - wasn't given a proper look at the NHL level but I see him as a tweener type player. Don't think he brings enough to be an NHL top 6 player and definitely not suited to a bottom 6 role.
Paul Carey - career AHLer IMO. He's a hardworking guy with a really good motor but I don't see the NHL skill here.
Brad Malone - 4th line player at his best.

Garret Meurs - plays a good gritty game but is very raw and a huge long shot but obviously too soon to call.
Mitchell Heard - Don't see the skill with this guy, I think he tops out as a 4th line center who fights/takes faceoffs. He seems raw even for the AHL so even that 4th line role seems far off.
Joseph Blandisi - again very raw, long shot to make in the AHL, but obviously too soon to call.
Troy Bourke - very skilled player but very undersized. He's the most intriguing of this group of 4 guys to me but I'm concerned that he will never develop the strength to handle the NHL game physically.

Condon, Moffatt, Clarke, haven't seen them.
Again the age the difference between us and the Hawks are the biggest difference. Majority of the players you listed, you even said that its too soon to call. As I have mentioned before, clubs that are ending rebuilds will have one area which they will lack in, depth. Chicago/Pittsburgh/St. Louis all had this problem.


Quote:
Personally I don't think we have much coming beyond tweeners who won't stick in the NHL long term or 4th line players.

Maybe I just have a pessimistic or overly critical view of our own prospects versus those belonging to other teams, but that's just how I see it, and I don't think I'm that far off.
The problem is, during the draft we ALL want the Duclairs', Ernes', and the Ratties', but for some reason whenever we did they turn into major busts, IE Nermark. I prefer our scouting staff drafting players not known to the hockey community with good character that have a chance to make it with hardwork than the Wolski's of the world who have more talent, but will never contribute to anything major.

Quote:
The area where I agree with you most is that we certainly haven't had as many picks recently as a number of other teams. 2012 particularly we didn't have much to work with. 2010, not Pracey's fault that Hishon got hurt and Bournival got traded but it hurts our prospect depth a lot.
The only biggest fail that Pracey/Sherman get from me is the Silas pick which they traded two picks for.

Just go to Hockeyfutures.com and see the difference between Chicago and Colorado, that right there shows the difference in picks.


Last edited by S E P H: 12-14-2013 at 09:59 PM.
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Old
12-14-2013, 11:20 PM
  #114
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I see the difference in this discussion is between what is in Lake Erie right now vs. the entire prospect pool. I actually do like the stable of 19-20 year old forwards we have and can live with the fact most of them are question marks because most of our high picks in recent years are already playing in the NHL. It is that lack of 22+ options that is a concern but I guess there isn't much we can do about that now.

So the question is what do the Avs do if they need several call ups? Choose the best 20 year old and hope for the best? Use the career AHLers? Make a trade?

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12-23-2013, 12:39 AM
  #115
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I was looking through the top scorers in the league. Of the 18 players with the highest PPG (not counting guys with 1-2 games):

7 were drafted 1st overall (Crosby, Ovechkin, Stamkos, Kane, Hall, Tavares, Thornton)
3 were drafted 2nd overall (Malkin, Marleau, Seguin)
1 was drafted 3rd overall (Duchene)
1 was drafted 4th overall (Bäckström)
3 were drafted second half of the first round (Getzlaf 19th, Steen 24th, Perry 28th)
1 was drafted in the second round (Neal 33rd)
1 was drafted in the seventh round (Zetterberg 210th)
1 was undrafted (Kunitz)

At least when it comes to forwards it does seem that teams have gotten so good at scouting that the best way to get top end offensive talent is to draft high. For defenders it seems easier to find gems later.

It's probably an odd year too, with unusually many high draft picks doing well. Normally we'd see Giroux and Datsyuk there.

It'll be fun to see how Pracey & Co does when the team doesn't pick as high as they have recently.

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12-23-2013, 01:08 AM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
I was looking through the top scorers in the league. Of the 18 players with the highest PPG (not counting guys with 1-2 games):

7 were drafted 1st overall (Crosby, Ovechkin, Stamkos, Kane, Hall, Tavares, Thornton)
3 were drafted 2nd overall (Malkin, Marleau, Seguin)
1 was drafted 3rd overall (Duchene)
1 was drafted 4th overall (Bäckström)
3 were drafted second half of the first round (Getzlaf 19th, Steen 24th, Perry 28th)
1 was drafted in the second round (Neal 33rd)
1 was drafted in the seventh round (Zetterberg 210th)
1 was undrafted (Kunitz)

At least when it comes to forwards it does seem that teams have gotten so good at scouting that the best way to get top end offensive talent is to draft high. For defenders it seems easier to find gems later.

It's probably an odd year too, with unusually many high draft picks doing well. Normally we'd see Giroux and Datsyuk there.

It'll be fun to see how Pracey & Co does when the team doesn't pick as high as they have recently.
In the first round sure but in the later rounds Pracey & co have done a decent job.

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12-23-2013, 02:02 AM
  #117
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Was talking to someone the other day and they asked what the Oilers did with their high second round picks all those years and that's where the Avs have done well is with their high seconds. So assuming they have a mid first and second this upcoming draft will be interesting to see what they can do.

You guys like anyone in particular in that spot, mid first and mid second? If McKeown really falls that far, is he worth a mid first or should they go forward?

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12-23-2013, 02:12 AM
  #118
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We have some good players in the system but as far as our NHL roster goes, I think O'Reilly is the only 2nd round pick we've hit on since Pracey took over. It remains to be seen what Bigras, Heard, Pickard, and Elliott can do.

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12-23-2013, 02:22 AM
  #119
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True, time will tell. I guess that brings the question, has any team done significantly better with seconds and lower picks in recent years?

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12-23-2013, 02:46 AM
  #120
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Not really. Saad and Shaw are probably the two most talked about ones recently. Hawks got them both after the first round in 2011. From 2010 there's Faulk and Gallagher. O'Reilly is probably the best player drafted after the first round in 2009. It's too early to tell because they're all still so young.

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12-23-2013, 03:39 AM
  #121
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Quote:
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Not really. Saad and Shaw are probably the two most talked about ones recently. Hawks got them both after the first round in 2011. From 2010 there's Faulk and Gallagher. O'Reilly is probably the best player drafted after the first round in 2009. It's too early to tell because they're all still so young.
He's the best player so far. But he was also picked early in that round.

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12-23-2013, 10:16 AM
  #122
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montreal and trevor timmins. if 2007 counts. i don't have any statistics but i think habs have the best draft record since lockout.

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12-28-2013, 01:29 PM
  #123
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So like Vrana is going to be a really good player, lets hope he falls to our pick (13th-ish to 25th).

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12-28-2013, 01:33 PM
  #124
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not 14 draftee but i liked what i saw from zacha.

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01-01-2014, 11:51 AM
  #125
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Has anyone seen Adrian Kempe play this year? Been hearing some good things about him.

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