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The Pens' supposed "playoff embarassment" since '09

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Old
09-28-2013, 12:43 AM
  #1
Warm Cookies
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The Pens' supposed "playoff embarassment" since '09

Had a variation of this post posted elsewhere, but it was OT so I made a separate thread:

There have been only 8 teams in the league who have qualified for the playoffs every year since '09: the Caps, Bruins, Pens, Sharks, Hawks, Canucks, Kings, and Wings.

All of those teams have made the 2nd round at least twice during that time, however only 6 have made the 3rd round at least once: the Bruins, Pens, Sharks, Hawks, Canucks, and Kings.

Of those teams, only 4 have made the 3rd round more than once during that time: the Bruins, Sharks, Hawks, and Kings.

So playoff wise, there are literally only 4 teams who have fared better than the Pens since '09, which is the most advantageous spot for a critic to choose as a cut-off point because it comes immediately after the Pens came off back-to-back Finals appearances, including a Cup. That's without mentioning that none of those teams had to deal with near the amount of long-term injuries to core players that the Pens have, or the historically terrible goaltending performances of one Marc-Andre Fleury.

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09-28-2013, 12:51 AM
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when people talk about playoff embarrassment it has less to do with how far they made it and more to do with how they played and eventually went out, and you know that

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09-28-2013, 01:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
I have explained the PO embarrassments to you over multiple threads on multiple occasions. Don't say things like, "you like throwing out vague, derogatory, blanket terms like that without providing anything to support them" because you know it's not true.
No, it is true. The facts are the results. The "embarrassment" is your interpretation of those results, which doesn't hold up when measured against the results of other teams league-wide.

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You're "facts" are incredibly misleading, but I guess I shouldn't expect anything better here on HF. Your "facts" assume that every team is equal and every opponent is equal, which is not true.
There is, in fact, absolute equality in stating the results for all teams who've earned playoff berths over the past 4 years.

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You tried to argue that the Pens had a better POs last year than the Wings because the Pens made it to the ECF and the Wings lost in the 2nd round. Totally ignoring that the Pens went through two bubble teams to get swept by the Bs and the Wings took the eventual Cup champs to game 7 OT.
The Pens made the 3rd round, the Wings made the 2nd.

If the Wings wanted a lesser seed, maybe they should've been better in the regular season. That's the reward for maintaining a high standard over a full season.

Quote:
Also, of the 8 teams you listed I'd say that the Pens are 7th in PO success since 09, with only the Caps behind them. It also excludes the Flyers and Devils who made it to a SCF in that time, which would put the Pens at about 9th in PO success since 2009.
Only in a world where making the 2nd round is better than making the 3rd, because working to earn a high playoff seed is somehow a mark against you.

When you're the #1 seed in the conference, you're going to be matched against lesser opponents all the way to the Finals.

And yes, I'm confident in asserting that if you've missed the playoffs at any time during the past 4 years, you don't deserve to be in the discussion. This is about maintaining a standard of quality over 4 years, and if you want to talk about embarrassing, it doesn't get much more embarrassing than missing the playoffs entirely. God only knows what this place would do if the Pens did it under DB/Shero.

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Originally Posted by SHOOTANDSCORE View Post
I think your post struck me in an unintended manner. Glass half full/empty situation I guess.

8 teams have made the playoffs every year, so these are our comparables/perennial contenders.
Right. This is the top 25% of the league. The fact that we're inarguably part of that group at the very least shows how un-embarrassing our results have been. Especially since, as I stated earlier, that it's the most convenient cut-off point for critics.

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Further, 6 teams have made the 3rd round at least once. If you consider how poor our showing in the 3rd round was, then one might be able to argue that 6 of 8 teams have outperformed us.
I will never consider a 3rd round loss less successful than a 2nd round loss. That's just goofy.

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I'd be interested to see how many losses these teams have to lower seeds.
I'd be interested to know why that matters, since seedings are earned, not randomly awarded.


Last edited by Warm Cookies: 09-28-2013 at 01:14 AM.
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09-28-2013, 01:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fordy View Post
when people talk about playoff embarrassment it has less to do with how far they made it and more to do with how they played and eventually went out, and you know that
Forget about style; worry about results.

- Bobby Orr

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09-28-2013, 01:05 AM
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I'll edit my original post though and say the Canucks have definitely had a more impressive playoff run since '09 than the Pens. They have an additional Finals appearance that I somehow managed to overlook.

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09-28-2013, 01:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Forget about style; worry about results.

- Bobby Orr
yeah that's usually what the winner says. the pens need to worry about both.

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09-28-2013, 01:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Right. This is the top 25% of the league. The fact that we're inarguably part of that group at the very least shows how un-embarrassing our results have been. Especially since, as I stated earlier, that it's the most convenient cut-off point for critics.
I don't think our results have necessarily been embarrassing, though a couple of the series were. I do think we have been underperforming. My post is more related to the above stats.


Quote:
I will never consider a 3rd round loss less successful than a 2nd round loss. That's just goofy.
I think you misunderstand. I said that it could be argued-- that the Pens lone 3rd round appearance was so poor that they rank at the bottom of the 6 teams who have made it to the 3rd round. Hence 6 out of 8 in their class.

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I'd be interested to know why that matters, since seedings are earned, not randomly awarded.
It has to do with results vs expectations.

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09-28-2013, 02:23 AM
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Just because you refuse to believe something and choose to endlessly spin the excuse wheel doesn't mean that the Pens haven't been embarrassed in the last 4 years.

2009-10:
Pens run into the 8th seed Habs. They win a few close games and go up 3-2. Halak is having a great series, but the Pens keep trying the same dam thing over and over, playing right into the Habs' gameplan. In game six the Pens take a 2-1 lead early in the 2nd period, give up 3 straight to lose the game. Game 7 at home, they gotta come out strong right? Well they give up the first 4 goals and the season's over.

2010-11:
Sid and Geno are hurt so the Pens have something to prove. Come out strong and win game 1 3-0 so this series is gonna be ab breeze. Game 2 Tampa stomps the Pens 5-1. The Pens rally and win the next two games 3-2 to take a 3-1 series lead with game 5 coming back to Pittsburgh. You thought they got stomped in game 2? try an 8-2 ****** in elimination game #1. In game 6 the Pens tye the game 2-2 early in the 3rd period, sweet! Then give up the GWG 67 sec later, ****. Ok, not it's game 7 at home gotta come out strong. We haven't been held to less than 2 goals so if we play good D we'll move on. **** we got shutout, time to hit the links!

2011-12:
No explanation necessary.

2012-13:
Once the MAF excuse is gone, the Pens sleep walk through the first two rounds putting up historic GPG numbers. Well the Bs barely broke a sweat ****ing the Pens in the ass in 4 straight games only to get beat by a skill team in the Hawks.


Keep making your excuses if they make you feel better. I'd rather not look at the past 4 years through black and gold colored glasses.

And it's pretty ****ing convenient that you don't count teams that have missed a PO since 2009 to be allowed in the discussion of PO success when two of the teams that have played in the SCP since then have also missed a PO. Sorry, but the Flyers and Devils have had more PO success than the Pens since then.

I put the following teams ahead of the Pens PO success since the 2009:
CHI
BOS
LA
PHI
NJ
VAN
SJ
DET

Putting the Pens 9th. And I don't want to hear about how because the Pens made it to the 3rd round last year they're better than the Wings because that's so far outside reality it's laughable. The Pens had zero wins against good teams in last years PO, beating NYI and OTT is not a great accomplishment for this team.

Your whole "3 is better than 2" argument reminds me of a child trying to argue that 2 dollar bills are better than a 5 dollar bill, because two is more than one. Well once you look a bit more close at the bills you'll realize that one $5 bill is actually better than two $1 bills. But don't try to tell the child that, because they have it in their mind that every bill is the same so 2 bills has to be better than 1 bill.


Last edited by Ragamuffin Gunner: 09-28-2013 at 03:14 AM.
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09-28-2013, 05:49 AM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
Just because you refuse to believe something and choose to endlessly spin the excuse wheel doesn't mean that the Pens haven't been embarrassed in the last 4 years.

2009-10:
Pens run into the 8th seed Habs. They win a few close games and go up 3-2. Halak is having a great series, but the Pens keep trying the same dam thing over and over, playing right into the Habs' gameplan. In game six the Pens take a 2-1 lead early in the 2nd period, give up 3 straight to lose the game. Game 7 at home, they gotta come out strong right? Well they give up the first 4 goals and the season's over.
I love how you're going out of your way to avoid telling the truth here which is that Fleury absolutely **** the bed in that series. If the Pens get even average goaltending they likely move on to the next round. It's amusing to see the biggest Fleury excuse maker on the site continually tell someone else that they're making excuses.
Quote:
2010-11:
Sid and Geno are hurt so the Pens have something to prove. Come out strong and win game 1 3-0 so this series is gonna be ab breeze. Game 2 Tampa stomps the Pens 5-1. The Pens rally and win the next two games 3-2 to take a 3-1 series lead with game 5 coming back to Pittsburgh. You thought they got stomped in game 2? try an 8-2 ****** in elimination game #1. In game 6 the Pens tye the game 2-2 early in the 3rd period, sweet! Then give up the GWG 67 sec later, ****. Ok, not it's game 7 at home gotta come out strong. We haven't been held to less than 2 goals so if we play good D we'll move on. **** we got shutout, time to hit the links!
Sorry, but this is ridiculous. They battled hard, but with no Crosby or Malkin, the team was going nowhere regardless of how the first round shook out. Call it an excuse if you like, but it was the reality of the situation. If you're embarrassed by a depleted Pens team going 7 games in the playoffs then it says more about you as a fan than it does about the team. I'd love to see the list of teams that made Cup runs while missing their two best players. Let's take Toews/Kane off the Hawks and see how things play out.
Quote:
2011-12:
No explanation necessary.
To me, this was the only truly "embarrassing" postseason the Pens have had post-Cup. They lost their composure and acted like babies. Though I'm not surprised that you don't want to offer an explanation because it would have to include another colossal Fleury meltdown.
Quote:
2012-13:
Once the MAF excuse is gone, the Pens sleep walk through the first two rounds putting up historic GPG numbers. Well the Bs barely broke a sweat ****ing the Pens in the ass in 4 straight games only to get beat by a skill team in the Hawks.
I like how you dismiss their success by claiming that they "sleep walk" through the first two rounds. I'm sure there are a lot of coaches, players and fans out there that would love it if their team was capable of sleepwalking to the conference finals. The offense dried up in the third round but, to me, that's not enough to call it an "embarrassment". It's tough to be embarrassed about your team going to the conference finals. At least it is for me. Disappointed at the outcome, sure, but that's about it.

Quote:
Keep making your excuses if they make you feel better. I'd rather not look at the past 4 years through black and gold colored glasses.

And it's pretty ****ing convenient that you don't count teams that have missed a PO since 2009 to be allowed in the discussion of PO success when two of the teams that have played in the SCP since then have also missed a PO. Sorry, but the Flyers and Devils have had more PO success than the Pens since then.
Convenient? You gotta be kidding me. The entire foundation of this argument is convenient for you. It purposely focuses on "post-Cup" years. Think about that. Post-Cup. Oh and post-finals appearance in '08 too. Again, how many teams would love to even be able to refer to their post-Cup-and-back-to-back-finals years?

If we're talking convenience, then completely removing the team's successes under Shero seems pretty convenient to me. It's like saying "If you take away all the good stuff that happened, nothing good has happened!!" and thinking it's a valid point. From the very get-go, this discussion is catering to your side of the argument.

Quote:
Putting the Pens 9th. And I don't want to hear about how because the Pens made it to the 3rd round last year they're better than the Wings because that's so far outside reality it's laughable. The Pens had zero wins against good teams in last years PO, beating NYI and OTT is not a great accomplishment for this team.
Spoken like a spoiled Pens fan that lives in his team's black and gold bubble. Every team is supposed to just lay down and get run over by the Pens and, when it doesn't happen, it's some "embarrassing" failure on the Pens' part. Or maybe, just maybe, there are other good teams out there that are capable of wining cups? Do you really believe that the Pens roster is so much better than the rest of the league that they should just automatically have their ticket punched for the Cup finals every year and that anything less is "embarrassing"? Other teams do exist and they're all fighting to get to the same spot. It takes a lot more than having a talented roster to get there(including a bit of luck).

The only embarrassing thing I've seen lately is the constant bed-wetting over every little thing the team does. Honest criticism is one thing, rooting for the team to fail so that you can be "right" about a coach or a player is quite another(yes, I've seen many posts hoping for a crash and burn so that changes are made). That kind of attitude and the never ending string of snarky bull**** has made this board practically unreadable the last few months. I can already envision all the "They'll just fall apart in the playoffs!" posts after every regular season win coming our way.
Quote:
Your whole "3 is better than 2" argument reminds me of a child trying to argue that 2 dollar bills are better than a 5 dollar bill, because two is more than one. Well once you look a bit more close at the bills you'll realize that one $5 bill is actually better than two $1 bills. But don't try to tell the child that, because they have it in their mind that every bill is the same so 2 bills has to be better than 1 bill.
This analogy didn't require nearly that much explanation.


Last edited by TheSniper26: 09-28-2013 at 05:55 AM.
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Old
09-28-2013, 06:56 AM
  #10
Ogrezilla
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Some of you may want to sit down for this.


There are too many good teams to go in to the season expecting to win the Stanley Cup. You can go in expecting to be a contender, but the odds are stacked against every team every year. The smart bet is that we will not win this year. That is true for every single team even though someone has to do it each year.

The simple truth is that its silly to cut off the playoff success of these teams at 4 years ago because its clearly just to make us look worse than we really are. Go back to 5 or 6 years and suddenly we are right on top of the league just behind Chicago for playoff success. In the last 4 years, we are in the 3rd group that includes all but 3 teams.

Boo ****ing hoo.


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09-28-2013, 07:05 AM
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Sure we've had success, but that's because Shero put together a great team of players and a system that should play to their strengths. Is one trip to the ECF really enough for a team that is competing for the cup every year?

Its embarrassing losing due to a lack of desire and discipline in 2012 and 2013 when we've had some of the best teams and have been as healthy as anyone else. Chicago has won, retooled and won again since we even made the finals!

We've basically been ceded the division this year by everyone in the media. Don't you think we should be able to put it together and at least make it to the finals given health? If we don't is it really not disappointing?

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09-28-2013, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by cygnus47 View Post
Sure we've had success, but that's because Shero put together a great team of players and a system that should play to their strengths. Is one trip to the ECF really enough for a team that is competing for the cup every year?

Its embarrassing losing due to a lack of desire and discipline in 2012 and 2013 when we've had some of the best teams and have been as healthy as anyone else. Chicago has won, retooled and won again since we even made the finals!

We've basically been ceded the division this year by everyone in the media. Don't you think we should be able to put it together and at least make it to the finals given health? If we don't is it really not disappointing?
The correct answer to that question is "it depends." We are not the only team that feels that way. I'm sure Boston fans think a Finals appearance is their benchmark at this point too. I hear they are a pretty good team.

We aren't the only team competing for the Cup every year. Only 2 teams make it to the finals. Someone has to be disappointed every single year. Most teams in the league are much more disappointed than we are. Imagine being a Flyers fan and missing the playoffs last year. This place would implode on itself.

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09-28-2013, 07:12 AM
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Til the End of Time
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the flyers series and the boston series were both very embarrassing to me.

pens came off like spoiled babies against the flyers. and last year with all the additions, with all the iginla drama, and the entire hockey world watching, hcdb exposes himself as a stubborn fool (keeping iginla at lw is the epitome of embarrassing), crosby/malkin were epic failures, and letang was exposed as a fourth forward.

anytime you are swept is embarrassing, unless your team is absolutely crushed with injuries. particularly so when you were favorites going in to the series.

people seem very frazzled by the idea that the penguins are annually overrated and are occasionally delivering shameful performances. im not sure why people get upset when not everyone is "ra-ra" cheerleading for your favorite team. its just stupid sports, let people enjoy the team however they want.

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09-28-2013, 07:13 AM
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It's funny how people discount beating the Isles and Senators because they were "bubble teams." The Kings won the Cup from the 8th seed The Flyers made the Cup finals from the 7th seed, and both the Redwings and the Blackhawks have been "bubble teams"

As much as people like to trash them the Islanders were a good team last year, as is often the case with so called bubble teams they started out slow then got really hot coming down the stretch.

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09-28-2013, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
the flyers series and the boston series were both very embarrassing to me.

pens came off like spoiled babies against the flyers. and last year with all the additions, with all the iginla drama, and the entire hockey world watching, hcdb exposes himself as a stubborn fool (keeping iginla at lw is the epitome of embarrassing), crosby/malkin were epic failures, and letang was exposed as a fourth forward.

anytime you are swept is embarrassing, unless your team is absolutely crushed with injuries. particularly so when you were favorites going in to the series.

people seem very frazzled by the idea that the penguins are annually overrated and are occasionally an embarrassment. who cares.
I completely agree with the Flyers series. That was embarrassing in a non-hockey way. They acted like children throwing a tantrum. When Letang did the Shhhhh I just wanted to punch him in the face.

Boston series was bad, but it was nothing like the Flyers series to me. We got beat soundly. It sucked. Getting swept sucks. But there was only one really bad game in that series. The rest of the time we at least looked like a good hockey team.

As far as Letang being exposed as a 4th forward, well players have bad games and series. I think Letang had a lot more good games than bad in these playoffs. And I don't think his defensive play was close to our biggest problem against Boston considering the lack of scoring was clearly the main issue. Remember, not a week later Chara was being exposed as a pylon against Chicago. **** happens.

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09-28-2013, 07:25 AM
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I'd be curious if anyone could name a team with consecutive playoff series eliminations (Flyers/Bruins) that were more embarrassing than our last two? It must be impossible to find a worse goaltending effort (Flyers) and offensive execution (Bruins) in consecutive years. Didn't we set a playoff record in each series?

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09-28-2013, 07:28 AM
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Til the End of Time
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also im not sure how someone can use fleury's horrific goaltending as a reason for why this team is not embarrassing.

if anything fleury's continued employment by this organization is shameful. a loser of epic proportions, yet he continues to be supported by the team, coach, and organization. the entire league knows he sucks and has known it for years. no other team would continually give this loser chance after chance to redeem himself.

everyday that goes by with fleury on this roster is embarrassing and shows that a championship isnt this organizations top priority.

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09-28-2013, 08:28 AM
  #18
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87 has said in at least a couple interviews over the summer that losing the Boston series was tough and it took him a couple weeks to get over it. If he only dwells on that series for that long, I'm not going to worry about that debacle, let alone what happened four years ago. Pens will have another good team this year, and I look forward to watching 87 and 71 enter the primes of their careers.

I think that Pens fans have been pretty lucky since 2008, except frankly having to watch them play most of the 2010/2011 season without 87 and 71 (and yes they blew a 3-1 lead to TB, but they overachieved that whole season). Yeah, Fleury's frustrating, the loss to the Flyers last year was horrific, and more recently watching Glass founder on the fourth line is maddening when there are clearly better choices. But all in all, it could be a lot worse.

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09-28-2013, 08:46 AM
  #19
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also im not sure how someone can use fleury's horrific goaltending as a reason for why this team is not embarrassing.
Precisely. Reminds me of this gem from yesterday's Flyers GDT:
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Originally Posted by Striiker View Post
If you take away the two goals that were 100% Emerys fault, the one that was Coburns fault, and the empty netter it really wasn't that bad. A few bad individual mistakes away from it being 3-2 Flyers.

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09-28-2013, 08:52 AM
  #20
Ogrezilla
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Precisely. Reminds me of this gem from yesterday's Flyers GDT:

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09-28-2013, 09:03 AM
  #21
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Haha. If you take away all the times the team screwed up, they actually played really well.

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09-28-2013, 09:07 AM
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Til the End of Time
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if you take away the teams most embarrassing player, the team isnt embarrassing.

logic, not even once.

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09-28-2013, 09:12 AM
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Bylsma's playoff record is something like 36-29 but the stat that jumps out more is his home playoff record:

10wins - 12losses

In '09 they couldn't be beaten on home ice.
So that makes the stats even worse if you take out '09.

Call it bad coaching, undisciplineness, bad goaltending. Dan Bylsma should've been fired, Fleury should've been gone.

Now we're back to hoping they somehow get better.

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09-28-2013, 09:16 AM
  #24
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The most embarrassing thing with this team and the playoffs is how stupid they are judging their own and other NHL players. All of the embarrassing playoff results are just symptoms to the root cause IMO.

Head in the sand approach towards MAF. To think that we could've dumped him after the 2010 MON debacle for a decent return (this was the season that sealed my opinion of him, after a shaky 2009 playoff performance. Yes I know we still won the cup that year). Still cruising down the highway on a flat tire that has now caused the wheel to spark. If only we would've changed it when it first went flat? Now we can't even drive straight and the sparks have caught the rest of the car on fire. I can provide a mountain of data that proves he was only an average to below goaltender outside of 1 year in a shortened season for him. Surely, the Pens are looking at more information than I am, right?, right? Please say right.

4th line. Is there anything else that needs written about this? Name 1 good 4th line the Pens have had during the Bylsma era. Just name 1 good 4th line player. Talbot is all that comes to my mind (Satan too if you consider him 4th line). We continue to staff this line with terrible players (by even 4th line standards) that only contribute in 1 negligible way (fighting, 1-2min of PK time, hitting). Why not use it as a place where your best young talent has a chance to contribute to the scoreboard? Wait, we barely have any good young talent at forward because we don't know what traits to value.

When do the Pen's ever value possession and net positive goal (ie positive) players? Surely it wasn't last year where they practically sold the farm to acquire some of the worst possession players that were available in the league. Note how many of those players made a difference or stayed on the team. I wonder why those players were available? So, WhyTF did we get them in the first place? We didn't bench our 4th line to let these new, slightly better guys play. We benched TK, Depres, and BB. Probably 3 of our best possession players and 2 of the best value players we had. The trades MADE us a worse team.

So we can keep *****ing about Bylsma (he certainly deserves fault on his roster choices), but who controls his roster options? Why does he even have the option of choosing GlAdams, Rupp, Asham, Kobasew, Fedotenko, or Vitale? Pens need to realize what "team" they want to be from the top down. Bylsma should follow suit with his rosters and data based evaluations. Remove the "opinions" from roster decisions.

I just love how we have shipped out Letestu, TK, Lovejoy, Talbot, and Scuderi (I know he's back now) because we didn't know what value they added to the team. Every single player has made us look stupid (outside of TK who hasn't played a non Pen game yet) for letting them go IMO. The 2 trades with SJS will make us look very stupid. They fleeced us IMO.

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09-28-2013, 09:19 AM
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Ogrezilla
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TK, Lovejoy and Letestu ranged from little to no value with this team. TK has been a bad player here for a while now. Lovejoy and Letestu simply don't have positions to play here. We have better guys than both playing in the positions they would play in. The biggest mistake with Lovejoy was waiting so long to trade him that we had to lose Strait for nothing.

Talbot is a guy I would like to have, but he had just come off of some really bad hockey when we let him go. Scuderi was a miss though.

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