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The Pens' supposed "playoff embarassment" since '09

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Old
10-03-2013, 05:50 PM
  #251
Ogrezilla
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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
Your definition of handily must be mighty generous. If you remove the Game 1 score, which everyone admits was a dominating effort, the rest of the series saw the Pens outscore the Isles 20-17 in the other 5 games (a whopping 3 more goals in 5 games!), while being outshot by the Islanders in 3 out of the 5 games.
We didn't dominate them. But I was never once worried that we might lose the series. That is what I consider winning handily. The series outcome was never in question.

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10-03-2013, 05:51 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
Your definition of handily must be mighty generous. If you remove the Game 1 score, which everyone admits was a dominating effort, the rest of the series saw the Pens outscore the Isles 20-17 in the other 5 games (a whopping 3 more goals in 5 games!), while being outshot by the Islanders in 3 out of the 5 games.
Why eliminate any of the games? One could just as easily argue that if Fleury didn't score on himself we would have swept the series. By taking out the first game you're trying to change history to fit your argument.

I hate when people try and say we 'almost lost to the Islanders' Beating a team in 6 games is not almost losing, especially considering we never once trailed in the series. Being down by 3 goals with five minutes left in game 7 and needing overtime is almost losing. Being down 3-1 in a series is almost losing. What we did was not.

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10-03-2013, 05:58 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Waffle Fries View Post
Why eliminate any of the games? One could just as easily argue that if Fleury didn't score on himself we would have swept the series. By taking out the first game you're trying to change history to fit your argument.

I hate when people try and say we 'almost lost to the Islanders' Beating a team in 6 games is not almost losing, especially considering we never once trailed in the series. Being down by 3 goals with five minutes left in game 7 and needing overtime is almost losing. Being down 3-1 in a series is almost losing. What we did was not.
Um, my post wasn't about "almost losing to the Islanders". It was a direct response to another poster believing the Pens "handily" beat the Islanders. Usually, when you handily beat someone, that team gave you zero trouble. The Islanders, on the other hand, certainly gave the Pens a scare.

If you want to include the 5-0 win, the Isles still gave the Pens a scare. Even including the 5-0 game, at one point the Isles tied the series 2-2 and looked like they had all the momentum. Even the coaching staff felt as much, as that was when Bylsma -- Mister stubborn himself -- not only put Vokoun in for Fleury, but shook up his lineup and played players who he previously was sitting. To argue otherwise IS revising history, since before the goalie change to Vokoun the series most definitely anyone's ball game.

Example: The Pens handily beat the Senators. Why? Because at no point did the Sens look the better team, and at no point did it look like the series could be lost. That's handily beating a team. What the Pens did against the Islanders was not "handily" beating them.

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10-03-2013, 06:23 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
The series against the Sens was the only one I think the Pens actually played close to what they, on paper anyway, were capable of playing. That was the kind of dominating display you'd expect of a team with the two best players in hockey, and who finished first in the conference by quite a large margin.
The playoffs aren't a cakewalk - just ask the Bruins about their 1st round against a fast and hungry team. And you underestimate the Isles. We were facing a much better team than their season record indicated, which is especially evident when you look at their record leading into the playoffs.

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It's the Islanders series and the Boston series where my frustration with this club comes to the surface. In the case of the Islanders, apart from Game 1, the Islanders arguably controlled large portions of the play that series. If they'd gotten the same kind of goaltending that Vokoun gave the Pens, the Isles would be in round two. In the case of Boston, the Pens finally played a team that was on par with them, and it resulted in a 4-0 series sweep, in which the Pens scored 2 goals the entire series. Both of those series, for different reasons, were what I'd call embarrassing.
The Isles series happens. A young team with nothing to lose against a contender with some new pieces still finding their roles. Water found its level - I wouldn't call that embarrassing.

The Bruins series wasn't embarrassing at all from a gameplay standpoint, we simply couldn't buy a goal. The result was though, obviously.

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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
Your definition of handily must be mighty generous. If you remove the Game 1 score, which everyone admits was a dominating effort, the rest of the series saw the Pens outscore the Isles 20-17 in the other 5 games (a whopping 3 more goals in 5 games!), while being outshot by the Islanders in 3 out of the 5 games.
If you remove Game 2 of the Pens/Bruins series, the Bruins only outscored the Pens 6-2 in the other 3 games, while being outshot in 2 of the 3 games.

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10-03-2013, 07:04 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
If you remove Game 2 of the Pens/Bruins series, the Bruins only outscored the Pens 6-2 in the other 3 games, while being outshot in 2 of the 3 games.
Come on, RRP. You honestly don't see a difference between outscoring a team 20-17 over 5 games (losing 2 of those 5), and being outscored by a 3 to 1 ratio in 3 games (losing all 3 of those games)? I know what you were trying to do (show the difference in goals is almost the same), but that's a bad example due to the percentages involved (ie. 20 to 17 is a lot closer to 1:1 while 6 to 2 is being outscored 3:1), as well as the record involved (3 wins, 2 losses in one example; 3 wins, zero losses in the other).

As for the rest, I'm not necessarily saying the *way* the Pens have lost their playoff series is embarrassing, but more the end result of it (ie. being swept by Boston, even if 3 out of the 4 games were close) where they've lost anytime they've played a strong team, and only win series when they're the overwhelming favorites.

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10-07-2013, 05:43 PM
  #256
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I think the thing that hit me today was finding out about Lavy's firing, Philly management don't care if it's Jesus himself coaching, if there's no results there's change it don't matter what the players or fans say or feel. The thing is, that DB is so loved by the players, media and fans that I can't see DB ever getting canned. I hate Philly but I do agree with them in this case.

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10-07-2013, 06:16 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Davos Seaworth View Post
I think the thing that hit me today was finding out about Lavy's firing, Philly management don't care if it's Jesus himself coaching, if there's no results there's change it don't matter what the players or fans say or feel. The thing is, that DB is so loved by the players, media and fans that I can't see DB ever getting canned. I hate Philly but I do agree with them in this case.
Philly trades core players immediately after signing them to long-term deals.

Philly signs a UFA goalie to a big money deal and trades away a promising young one, only for the young goalie win the Vezina and the UFA to suck so bad that he gets bought out.

Philly, as a consequence of their stupid personnel moves, fails to make the playoffs.

Philly fires a coach 3 games after giving him a complete vote of confidence.

Philly is a joke.

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10-07-2013, 07:07 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Philly trades core players immediately after signing them to long-term deals.

Philly signs a UFA goalie to a big money deal and trades away a promising young one, only for the young goalie win the Vezina and the UFA to suck so bad that he gets bought out.

Philly, as a consequence of their stupid personnel moves, fails to make the playoffs.

Philly fires a coach 3 games after giving him a complete vote of confidence.

Philly is a joke.
This is correct. I will no longer ever look to Philly as an example of what the Pens should do (not that I ever did but the past few seasons have been the icing on the cake).

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10-07-2013, 08:34 PM
  #259
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This is correct. I will no longer ever look to Philly as an example of what the Pens should do (not that I ever did but the past few seasons have been the icing on the cake).
That maybe, I guess I just accept that Byslma is never going anywhere.

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10-07-2013, 09:06 PM
  #260
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I'm rather new here so this question might be incredibly asinine and pointless...but is the point of this thread to prove that we mathematically are in the upper 20% of the league in terms of success or that we should feel good about being in the upper 20% of the league in terms of success?

The first point seems rather obvious to anyone with access to Google, the second implies that a group of Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Neal, et al is only expected to be in that top 20% and we should be happy about it.

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10-07-2013, 09:15 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by Davos Seaworth View Post
I think the thing that hit me today was finding out about Lavy's firing, Philly management don't care if it's Jesus himself coaching, if there's no results there's change it don't matter what the players or fans say or feel. The thing is, that DB is so loved by the players, media and fans that I can't see DB ever getting canned. I hate Philly but I do agree with them in this case.
I see the Pen's management/Shero and the Flyer's management/Homer as the two extremes in management philosophy, with Shero being the extreme on the side of patience and Homer the extreme of boldness. IMO, neither is an ideal philosophy. You need a GM with a healthy mix of patience and boldness and knows the right time to be patient or bold.

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10-07-2013, 09:59 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Kobita View Post
I'm rather new here so this question might be incredibly asinine and pointless...but is the point of this thread to prove that we mathematically are in the upper 20% of the league in terms of success or that we should feel good about being in the upper 20% of the league in terms of success?

The first point seems rather obvious to anyone with access to Google, the second implies that a group of Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Neal, et al is only expected to be in that top 20% and we should be happy about it.
What should also be obvious to anyone with Google is that the Pens have not had Crosby, Malkin, Letang, and Neal for the past 4 years.

The Pens are in the top 20% in the league in spite of that.

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10-07-2013, 09:59 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
I see the Pen's management/Shero and the Flyer's management/Homer as the two extremes in management philosophy, with Shero being the extreme on the side of patience and Homer the extreme of boldness. IMO, neither is an ideal philosophy. You need a GM with a healthy mix of patience and boldness and knows the right time to be patient or bold.
Where does Ken Holland fit?

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10-07-2013, 10:11 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
I see the Pen's management/Shero and the Flyer's management/Homer as the two extremes in management philosophy, with Shero being the extreme on the side of patience and Homer the extreme of boldness. IMO, neither is an ideal philosophy. You need a GM with a healthy mix of patience and boldness and knows the right time to be patient or bold.
Shero is still the extreme of patience after last year? He made by far the biggest splashes of 2013. Didn't work well for us, mind you, but there's no disputing that he was bold last spring.

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10-07-2013, 10:12 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
I see the Pen's management/Shero and the Flyer's management/Homer as the two extremes in management philosophy, with Shero being the extreme on the side of patience and Homer the extreme of boldness. IMO, neither is an ideal philosophy. You need a GM with a healthy mix of patience and boldness and knows the right time to be patient or bold.
If you polled fans or teams, I would imagine they would say Shero was the boldest GM in the league for his activity level at deadlines, which arguably won us our cup in '09, and got us to the cup in '08, not to mention landing Iggy last year. Being patient would have been letting Whitney and Goligoski continue to patrol our blue line while we watched Esposito and Caputi bonk pucks off each other.

Calling Homer bold is either doing him quite a service, or doing the word "bold" quite a disservice.

You confuse me, sir.

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10-07-2013, 10:46 PM
  #266
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If you polled fans or teams, I would imagine they would say Shero was the boldest GM in the league for his activity level at deadlines, which arguably won us our cup in '09, and got us to the cup in '08, not to mention landing Iggy last year. Being patient would have been letting Whitney and Goligoski continue to patrol our blue line while we watched Esposito and Caputi bonk pucks off each other.

Calling Homer bold is either doing him quite a service, or doing the word "bold" quite a disservice.

You confuse me, sir.
Maybe "patience" and "boldness" weren't the right words.


IMO, he took much more risks before the Cup than after. Coming out of nowhere to land Hossa and the Whits/Kuni trades were increadibly bold. Since the win he's moved into "keep the core together" mode. The Neal deal was big but Gogo was on our 3rd pairing and not in the top 4 like Whits. Last year he had to make moves because of how doing nothing at the previous TDL blew up in his face.

The only moves that were really "bold" where the Morrow and Murray deals, which also happened to be the two worst deals he made. People seem to forget that he offered an inferior deal to CAL than BOS, but Iggy chose the Pens.

Also, don't forget that with all of his moves last year he didn't move anyone. DB said he had too many options and there were reports of guys upset with not playing. You can't bring in 4 guys (plus getting Sid back) whithout clearing some room for them.

Since another PO failure he's made a whole bunch of moves to "keep the core together":

- Extended the whole coaching staff when many expected him to fire the whole staff.
- Brought back Scuds
- Gave two 34 yearolds 4 year extensions to ride on Sid's hip till he 30
- Gave a 36 yearold Adams an two year extension when there are better, younger options in the system.
- Fired Gillies and replaced him from within
- Supported DB declaration of MAF being out #1 in the POs next year
- Kept Nisky, which forced Des to be sent down (hopefully this get's resolved soon)

Bringing in Martin is the only move he made that was in the spirit of keeping the core together.

We'll see what he does with Orpik this season/summer. His recent history suggest that Shero will re-sign him, which would be a huge mistake.


Last edited by Ragamuffin Gunner: 10-07-2013 at 11:06 PM.
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10-07-2013, 11:02 PM
  #267
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What bugs me is that Shero took the easy way out, he said he was keeping his faith in DB and rewarded him. This will just be another case of a great regular season and the Byslma supporters will be pounding their chests and demanding vindication and then DB will get exposed again in the playoffs.

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10-07-2013, 11:12 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
Maybe "patience" and "boldness" weren't the right words.


IMO, he took much more risks before the Cup than after. Coming out of nowhere to land Hossa and the Whits/Kuni trades were increadibly bold. Since the win he's moved into "keep the core together" mode. The Neal deal was big but Gogo was on our 3rd pairing and not in the top 4 like Whits. Last year he had to make moves because of how doing nothing at the previous TDL blew up in his face.

The only moves that were really "bold" where the Morrow and Murray deals, which also happened to be the two worst deals he made. People seem to forget that he offered an inferior deal to CAL than BOS, but Iggy chose the Pens.

Also, don't forget that with all of his moves last year he didn't move anyone. DB said he had too many options and there were reports of guys upset with not playing. You can't bring in 4 guys (plus getting Sid back) whithout clearing some room for them.

Since another PO failure he's made a whole bunch of moves to "keep the core together":

- Extended the whole coaching staff when many expected him to fire the whole staff.
- Brought back Scuds
- Gave two 34 yearolds 4 year extensions to ride on Sid's hip till he 30
- Gave a 36 yearold Adams an two year extension when there are better, younger options in the system.
- Fired Gillies and replaced him from within
- Supported DB declaration of MAF being out #1 in the POs next year
- Kept Nisky, which forced Des to be sent down (hopefully this get's resolved soon)

Bringing in Martin is the only move he made that was in the spirit of keeping the core together.

We'll see what he does with Orpik this season/summer. His recent history suggest that Shero will re-sign him, which would be a huge mistake.
That's the big difference between trying to construct a contender and trying to maintain a contender, isn't it?

Not to mention, I'm not seeing how you differentiate between the Hossa trade and the Iginla trade in terms of "boldness".

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10-07-2013, 11:35 PM
  #269
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That's the big difference between trying to construct a contender and trying to maintain a contender, isn't it?

Not to mention, I'm not seeing how you differentiate between the Hossa trade and the Iginla trade in terms of "boldness".
Maintaining a contender is great, but when pieces don't work you need to replace them. Shero doesn't replace pieces that don't work (DB and MAF being the best examples). It also assumes that what worked one time has work again, which isn't true. Just look at how different the two Hawks Cup teams were. The Cup year was the perfect storm of DBs open system with a great deal of MTs tight defensive system, not to mention health to the Pens and injuries to the Wings.

The Hossa and Iggy deals were completely different because of Iggy's NTC. Shero had to outbid other GMs for Hossa and he came out of nowhere (no one reported them as a contender till the trade went down). Everyone knew Iggy was either coming here or going to Boston. Shero just had to tender an offer (which was worse then Boston's BTW) and hope Iggy picked the Pens.

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10-07-2013, 11:36 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Philly trades core players immediately after signing them to long-term deals.

Philly signs a UFA goalie to a big money deal and trades away a promising young one, only for the young goalie win the Vezina and the UFA to suck so bad that he gets bought out.

Philly, as a consequence of their stupid personnel moves, fails to make the playoffs.

Philly fires a coach 3 games after giving him a complete vote of confidence.

Philly is a joke.
i agree, philly sucks. i was at one of our playoff games against them and they scored a bunch but still sucked. their goalie is so bad lol, he gave up like 4 easy goals. the goals they scored were lucky. fleury was hurt i think because we put in johnson eventually. our goals were deserved and we would have won if fleury didn't get hurt. good thing we get to beat up on their crappy goalie and coach again this year


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10-07-2013, 11:43 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
What should also be obvious to anyone with Google is that the Pens have not had Crosby, Malkin, Letang, and Neal for the past 4 years.

The Pens are in the top 20% in the league in spite of that.
Alright...remove Neal's name and remove the injury ridden Tampa series. That's still three years of the two best players in the world and a top 10-15 defenseman. It's not like they've had horrible supporting casts either. Are you content with just the top 20%? I'm trying to figure out if the argument you're trying to make is "This is working as intended" or "The sky isn't falling guys, breathe." The latter I can understand...the former I can't agree with.

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10-07-2013, 11:54 PM
  #272
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Alright...remove Neal's name and remove the injury ridden Tampa series. That's still three years of the two best players in the world and a top 10-15 defenseman. It's not like they've had horrible supporting casts either. Are you content with just the top 20%? I'm trying to figure out if the argument you're trying to make is "This is working as intended" or "The sky isn't falling guys, breathe." The latter I can understand...the former I can't agree with.
He is content with the PO performance and has tried to use these stats (and a biased thread title) to convince others of how "successful" the Pens have been since 09.

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10-08-2013, 07:09 AM
  #273
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Shero is still the extreme of patience after last year? He made by far the biggest splashes of 2013. Didn't work well for us, mind you, but there's no disputing that he was bold last spring.
He was extremely bold after a season before where he sat on his hands when knowing defense was a big issue. I'd say he made bold moves in both, one saying everything was fine, and the other I'll make up for last years and go overboard this year.

He almost pushed the right buttons for one,(really DB messed that one up) and one he did absolutely nothing.

One year the costs were too high, but the next he goes out on a binge. I'd say the cost were no different either year.

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10-08-2013, 08:34 AM
  #274
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Maintaining a contender is great, but when pieces don't work you need to replace them. Shero doesn't replace pieces that don't work (DB and MAF being the best examples). It also assumes that what worked one time has work again, which isn't true. Just look at how different the two Hawks Cup teams were.
Timing is key. You want to talk about the Blackhawks? Look at how they kept the core of the team together after two 1st round exits in a row with a completely healthy roster...something DB has never done.

There is replacing parts that don't work, and there is having enough dedication in your core pieces to stick with them through some rough patches. Fleury is the only piece who management has shown an excessive amount of patience with, based on the hard numbers.

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The Cup year was the perfect storm of DBs open system with a great deal of MTs tight defensive system, not to mention health to the Pens and injuries to the Wings.
And what exactly do you think they did this off-season?

You see, changing core pieces isn't always the answer. Sometimes you have to find the right complements.

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The Hossa and Iggy deals were completely different because of Iggy's NTC. Shero had to outbid other GMs for Hossa and he came out of nowhere (no one reported them as a contender till the trade went down). Everyone knew Iggy was either coming here or going to Boston. Shero just had to tender an offer (which was worse then Boston's BTW) and hope Iggy picked the Pens.
What a load. In both cases the Pens gave up multiple futures for an elite scoring winger on an expiring contract. The rest is just a sorry excuse to minimize it.

How was Shero supposed to be "bolder" in that instance? Add another 1st when he had an inkling he could get Iggy for less? I'd call that stupid.

The fact is that last deadline Shero gave up his 2011 1st, his 2013 1st, 2nds in 2013 and 2014, and 2 of his better forward prospects to improve the team...more than any other GM in the league. If that's not bold, I really have no clue what you expect.

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Alright...remove Neal's name and remove the injury ridden Tampa series. That's still three years of the two best players in the world and a top 10-15 defenseman. It's not like they've had horrible supporting casts either. Are you content with just the top 20%? I'm trying to figure out if the argument you're trying to make is "This is working as intended" or "The sky isn't falling guys, breathe." The latter I can understand...the former I can't agree with.
Well we're changing the argument considerably then, aren't we?

For the record, it's the latter. We have the potential to do better - all the pieces are there for another Cup. But it is a capped league with several other very good teams, and it's not reasonable to expect the Cup every year. Or every second year. The prudent thing to do is tweak a team with as many positives as the Pens, not blow it to smithereens if we don't make the Finals for a few injury-riddled years.

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10-08-2013, 12:56 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Timing is key. You want to talk about the Blackhawks? Look at how they kept the core of the team together after two 1st round exits in a row with a completely healthy roster...something DB has never done.

There is replacing parts that don't work, and there is having enough dedication in your core pieces to stick with them through some rough patches. Fleury is the only piece who management has shown an excessive amount of patience with, based on the hard numbers.

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You see, changing core pieces isn't always the answer. Sometimes you have to find the right complements.

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For the record, it's the latter. We have the potential to do better - all the pieces are there for another Cup. But it is a capped league with several other very good teams, and it's not reasonable to expect the Cup every year. Or every second year. The prudent thing to do is tweak a team with as many positives as the Pens, not blow it to smithereens if we don't make the Finals for a few injury-riddled years.
Common theme here for me, and my issue with Shero's off-season, is this concept of "keeping the core together". If we were talking about Shero's stubborn patience with his core group, I'd be on board. My issue with Shero is his patience extends to the complimentary pieces.

Not being trigger happy on a deal to dump a core player like a Crosby, Malkin, Neal, Letang, etc. is fine. I wouldn't want him to go full Holmgren in that regard. However, his love affair for keeping around guys like Adams, Glass, Dupuis, Fleury, etc., and continually sticking with vets like Eaton, is my issue with him. He seems incapable of shaking up the team, period, not just the core.

IMO, the successful teams are the ones who keep their talented core in place, but who properly tweak their complimentary pieces when things aren't working. They move players like Dupuis out so that they can bring in (or in this case, simply try and in-house prospect like Bennett) someone to play that spot. They move out fringe players like Adams or Glass and either find a "hungrier" replacement in free agency, or look to another in-house replacement in the system.

Look at the Blackhawks' two Cup winning teams. The core players (Kane, Toews, Keith, Sharp, Seabrook) all remain, but a lot of the complimentary pieces have been changed. Heck, Niemi won them a Cup, but that didn't stop the Blackhawks from trying to upgrade that position. Meanwhile, Fleury's entrenched in a Pens uniform no matter how bad his playoff performances are.

So I really don't mind Shero's patience when it comes to the core of the team. Where I'm starting to get annoyed with him is his patience for even complimentary pieces that could be upgraded, but instead are kept around because they're familiar.

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