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The Pens' supposed "playoff embarassment" since '09

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Old
09-30-2013, 02:17 PM
  #201
Garbage Goal
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Originally Posted by radapex View Post
His cap hit didn't stop Shero from getting who he wanted, and he still had room to work with. As a technicality, there is no salary cap in the playoffs so Fleury was eating up exactly $0 of cap space by being benched.

At the end of the day, there was over $40-million worth of forwards who managed to put up 0 points in 4 games against Boston. The $5-million goalie sitting on the bench becomes moot provided that Vokoun gave them every opportunity to win that series and they couldn't even win a single game.
If you take that one series that's very true and the 4th line as well as the winger situation should have some work put into it, but if you stretch the sample across to since the Cup win Fleury is the one consistent problem that's pretty major.

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09-30-2013, 08:25 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post

and would rather resort to using childishly biased thread titles, name calling, and blanket black/white statements than provide any substance.
Strange, I thought that was your thing. Mr. hypocrite is back at it

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09-30-2013, 08:41 PM
  #203
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The real problem is not what has happened since 2009.

The real problem is the fear about nothing at all changing and what is going to happen in 2013-14 and beyond.


Simple question. How many are confident in this team advancing even to the conference finals? Given the talent on this team that had them among the favorites everywhere else why is there that feeling of a likely early exit?

That is, and has been, the problem.

If the Pens could even admit what the issues have been and say that they are working on them I would feel better about this upcoming season. But instead it feels like the movie Groundhog Day.
Another excellent point in all of this.

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09-30-2013, 11:37 PM
  #204
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In light of our discussion, I just heard this and then something similar on NBC's season preview.

NHL Network season preview: "Pens are probably the biggest underachiever in the league" "It isn't just that they lost, it is how they lost"

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09-30-2013, 11:47 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
If you take that one series that's very true and the 4th line as well as the winger situation should have some work put into it, but if you stretch the sample across to since the Cup win Fleury is the one consistent problem that's pretty major.
The same thing happened against Montreal in 2010 - both Crosby and Malkin were kept in check.

They were both out for Tampa in 2011 but lack of offense (losing Game 7 1-0) was the ultimate downfall.

There's no debating that Fleury's played his role in the lack of success but he's far from the only one.

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09-30-2013, 11:49 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by SHOOTANDSCORE View Post
In light of our discussion, I just heard this and then something similar on NBC's season preview.

NHL Network season preview: "Pens are probably the biggest underachiever in the league" "It isn't just that they lost, it is how they lost"
Who said that? Analyst or part of some preview montage?

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10-01-2013, 12:00 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Who said that? Analyst or part of some preview montage?
It was Melrose during the Pens segment.

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10-01-2013, 12:01 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by SHOOTANDSCORE View Post
It was Melrose during the Pens segment.
Oh, well that gives RRP cover then, even if/though this is a time Melrose is right.

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10-01-2013, 12:01 AM
  #209
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Is this thread started by the OP in a last ditch effort hoping that Penguin management will see this and not fire Byslma?

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10-01-2013, 12:02 AM
  #210
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Is this thread started by the OP in a last ditch effort hoping that Penguin management will see this and not fire Byslma?
It's as likely precisely the rationale management has used to retain him.

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10-01-2013, 12:09 AM
  #211
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It's as likely precisely the rationale management has used to retain him.

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10-01-2013, 12:13 AM
  #212
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Oh, well that gives RRP cover then, even if/though this is a time Melrose is right.
Yeah, it was more striking to me that both previews had the same theme. You always have to take panels featuring Melrose or Milbury with a grain of salt.

I'm really curious how the rest of the league feels about this. Too bad we probably wouldn't get honest poll results from the main boards.

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10-01-2013, 12:15 AM
  #213
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Originally Posted by SHOOTANDSCORE View Post
Yeah, it was more striking to me that both previews had the same theme. You always have to take panels featuring Melrose or Milbury with a grain of salt.

I'm really curious how the rest of the league feels about this. Too bad we probably wouldn't get honest poll results from the main boards.
It's hard not to argue underachievement unless you believed in June 2009 that the expectations for the next four years should've been the same for the Pens as they were for say the Sharks.

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10-01-2013, 12:25 AM
  #214
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Just remember everyone as long as the players get to their game everything will be ok.

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10-01-2013, 12:35 AM
  #215
Garbage Goal
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Originally Posted by SHOOTANDSCORE View Post
Yeah, it was more striking to me that both previews had the same theme. You always have to take panels featuring Melrose or Milbury with a grain of salt.

I'm really curious how the rest of the league feels about this. Too bad we probably wouldn't get honest poll results from the main boards.
I think most educated fans echo the sentiments of Melrose/Milbury and this Pens board. Why wouldn't they? It's hard not to argue underachievement.

As far as this site goes the main boards are trash but then again this site is probably the best place to find the opinions of educated fans. Doesn't mean everyone here is unbiased, objective, and educated but there's no better way to find people like that then to go here. It's the biggest website for hockey discussion I know of and most fans you'll find on the street are fairweather homers (and that goes for any sport and any team really).

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10-01-2013, 12:45 AM
  #216
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I just caught the replay, here's the segment. Take it FWIW

Quote:
Tappen: Since '09 they have fallen short of their own expectations
Melrose: The more God gives you the more that is expected out of you. Lineup is fabulous. Just haven't been able to get the job done, and it is the way they're losing. 4 straight to the Bruins and were never really in that series. For this team not to take a run at the Cup every year, not to be in the finals of the Eastern Conference every year, with the lineups they put out there, they are an underachieving team and probably the biggest underachieving team in the NHL right now. They do have issues in that group and something has got to change because this team is too good to be losing 4 straight to anyone in the NHL.

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10-01-2013, 12:57 AM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
I think most educated fans echo the sentiments of Melrose/Milbury and this Pens board. Why wouldn't they? It's hard not to argue underachievement.

As far as this site goes the main boards are trash but then again this site is probably the best place to find the opinions of educated fans. Doesn't mean everyone here is unbiased, objective, and educated but there's no better way to find people like that then to go here. It's the biggest website for hockey discussion I know of and most fans you'll find on the street are fairweather homers (and that goes for any sport and any team really).
I agree. I think nearly everyone in this thread believes they have underachieved. It seems to be more a question of degree and where do you draw the line of how much is acceptable.

I can only imagine how the thread would shape up on the main boards I'm sure there would be some pretty good stuff though.

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10-01-2013, 01:36 AM
  #218
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Originally Posted by SHOOTANDSCORE View Post
I just caught the replay, here's the segment. Take it FWIW
This is what stood out to me from that quote, because it's the totally opposite of what they're doing:

Quote:
They do have issues in that group and something has got to change because this team is too good to be losing 4 straight to anyone in the NHL.
There have been no significant changes to this team that has 4 straight PO disappointments.

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10-01-2013, 01:57 AM
  #219
Garbage Goal
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Originally Posted by SHOOTANDSCORE View Post
I agree. I think nearly everyone in this thread believes they have underachieved. It seems to be more a question of degree and where do you draw the line of how much is acceptable.

I can only imagine how the thread would shape up on the main boards I'm sure there would be some pretty good stuff though.
Meh, you just ignore the asshats on the main board that won't listen to rationality. There's people like me that aren't fans of the Pens that will discuss them with an open, unbiased mind. Of course there's three or four homers and/or idiots for every one of me but still.

Would be fun to see though lol.

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10-02-2013, 12:06 AM
  #220
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I'm not sure how one finds solace in saying 'well, it's no worse than anyone outside of Boston or Chicago' (and LA, I'd suppose, if one adopts RagamuffinGunner's standard). When one has Crosby and Malkin and people who are supposed to be among the best managers and coaches in hockey, I just can't see it. I only see waste.
In a cap world, these things don't guarantee unlimited Finals berths. Sid and Geno have already reached the Finals with the Pens the same amount of times that Jagr and Lemieux did with the Pens, except the latter were in an uncapped NHL, with a better supporting cast. Jagr and Mario's Pens only reached the ECF one additional time.

It's tough to win in the NHL, no matter how many superstars you have, or how good the line-up/organization appears to be. That's the bottom line. Particularly with a goalie as terrawful as MAF has been.

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Exactly. My whole argument from the beginning was that RRP's method and statistics were a poor measure for his argument and could potentially be used to argue the other side. Never the less I've repeatedly been mischaracterized and had to restate that I don't believe the word embarrassment is accurate. And then, low and behold, I'm the one arguing in bad faith and using strawmen.

You have to love this place
Did somebody accuse you of "hiding behind a regular season record" too?

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Oh, well that gives RRP cover then, even if/though this is a time Melrose is right.
If you think I give two ***** about what any talking head says on the issue, you must not think too much of me, haha.

Are people in here gonna start quoting Keith Jones next?

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10-02-2013, 01:42 AM
  #221
Tender Rip
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In a cap world, these things don't guarantee unlimited Finals berths. Sid and Geno have already reached the Finals with the Pens the same amount of times that Jagr and Lemieux did with the Pens, except the latter were in an uncapped NHL, with a better supporting cast. Jagr and Mario's Pens only reached the ECF one additional time.
The "uncapped NHL with better supporting cast" does not necessarily play you know. It also meant that some rival teams could outspend you which isn't the case today, and you could even say that in a capped league, having the very best players is more of a competitive advantage now than it was then.
That certainly goes for the first years of Mario's career where the Pens just weren't competitive despite having a top2 in the world player. Also, you'd have to say that Lemieux being injured so much through the era that the Pens actually had a power house, roster and spending wise, that likely contributed a lot to 'only' making two finals.
Add Mario to those 97-00 teams with Jagr in likely his careers prime, and who knows? Upon Mario's return in 01 they immediately made the Conference final again. Long story short, I don't think this is a fair comparison never mind how often it is made.

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It's tough to win in the NHL, no matter how many superstars you have, or how good the line-up/organization appears to be. That's the bottom line. Particularly with a goalie as terrawful as MAF has been.
Pens PR parrot .
Anyway, no one expects us to win every year, but it would be really nice if we don't contribute as much or more to our playoff losses than our opponents. That goes beyond MAF, although he is obviously a big part. The last two years there were just too many things other than goal tending I did not like to hang it on Fleury. Montreal yes, Tampa no. Philly... terrible.... but the whole team collapsed in many ways. Boston.... no, obviously.
Structurally, I think we have just gotten worse and worse every year since, while individually last year was most likely the best roster we have had at any point.

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10-02-2013, 02:33 AM
  #222
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I do like that some changes were made, even if the people on the ice are relatively the same. New goaltending coach and a 3rd coach that has more coaching experience than the previous trio combined. While that might not be enough to some, for me, it's enough to give the current staff and the team a chance as a fan to sit back and just see if this actually helps this time around and if the GM will finally make bigger changes if he's not satisfied or if he's finally become complacent and maybe needs to exit with Bylsma if the season is a failure as well.

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10-02-2013, 03:17 AM
  #223
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We're in a tight cap league with the two best players in the world and have other elite talent (Neal, Letang) and don't dominant. We're deserving of the dreadful title.

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10-02-2013, 09:33 AM
  #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
The "uncapped NHL with better supporting cast" does not necessarily play you know. It also meant that some rival teams could outspend you which isn't the case today, and you could even say that in a capped league, having the very best players is more of a competitive advantage now than it was then.
The Pens certainly didn't suffer from that with the line-up they iced for most of the '90s. And "the very best players" argument simply doesn't fly. Not only because those players now take up a significant amount of a finite cap, but also because I don't think anyone wants to make the case that Sid and Geno = Lemieux and Jagr.

Quote:
That certainly goes for the first years of Mario's career where the Pens just weren't competitive despite having a top2 in the world player. Also, you'd have to say that Lemieux being injured so much through the era that the Pens actually had a power house, roster and spending wise, that likely contributed a lot to 'only' making two finals.
Uh, no. There's no way in hell I let somebody make an argument to injury in THIS thread.

Quote:
Pens PR parrot .
Anyway, no one expects us to win every year, but it would be really nice if we don't contribute as much or more to our playoff losses than our opponents. That goes beyond MAF, although he is obviously a big part. The last two years there were just too many things other than goal tending I did not like to hang it on Fleury. Montreal yes, Tampa no. Philly... terrible.... but the whole team collapsed in many ways. Boston.... no, obviously.
Structurally, I think we have just gotten worse and worse every year since, while individually last year was most likely the best roster we have had at any point.
I'm not sure of the distinction you're making between Tampa and Montreal when it comes to Fleury's part in it, and I simply have no idea how one could say our team was worse structurally last year than they were vs. Philly.

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We're in a tight cap league with the two best players in the world and have other elite talent (Neal, Letang) and don't dominant. We're deserving of the dreadful title.
To be fair, it's impossible to dominant.

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10-02-2013, 11:20 AM
  #225
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I'm not sure of the distinction you're making between Tampa and Montreal when it comes to Fleury's part in it, and I simply have no idea how one could say our team was worse structurally last year than they were vs. Philly.
They certainly looked exactly like the Philly series against the Islanders last spring. The difference was we switched goalies and won this time. Had we lost in Round 1, it would have been the identical situation, structurally and in terms of results.

Had we gone past Philadelphia in 2012, we probably wouldn't have looked so deer-in-the-headlights in Round 2.

There are PLENTY of similarities between what happened in 2012 and what happened last spring...and it starts between the pipes.

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