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Old
09-28-2013, 08:34 PM
  #26
Paul4587
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The only thing that surprises me about sending Staubitz down is that they're willing to pay a 1 way contract in the AHL. Other than that not really surprising. I'm pro fighting but Staubitz was a bit redundant - couldn't really fight and couldn't play hockey. Kurtz is a much better player so I have no issue with him up.

We lack size and bite up front but keeping Staubitz to sit him in the press box wasn't going to solve that. Hopefully we see Maroon take a regular shift this season.

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09-28-2013, 08:53 PM
  #27
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I'll echo what everyone else has said. Staubitz was never effective for this team. If anything he's been more detrimental to our success. Any reason to want him on the team had to do strictly with his fists. And he lost like half his fights.

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09-28-2013, 09:47 PM
  #28
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Staubitz never got much use. He's a winger who's only skill outside of his willingness to fight is his straight-ahead speed. Since he used that too often to do stupid things, he really had only very limited utility.

Kurtz IMO has a chance to be a decent energy player with 7-10 goal potential. He has nice mobility. He's a little undersized but not in a seriously detrimental way. Another year in Norfolk would be fine for him.

Maroon is a better overall package, even though his skating is the worst of the three; his fighting is decent (maybe better than decent) and his hand and puck skill are obviously above average. Plus he's huge, with a better center of gravity than a guy like Penner, who doesn't hit as effectively as you'd think.

But to Dirk's point, the team is pretty vulnerable to intimidation. I don't care to get in to "softest team we've ever iced" minutiae, but I don't like the way the team responds to a physical challenge. I also don't like the way the team responds to deliberate (or even reckless) injuries inflicted by other players. Yes, there are players on the team who are individually capable of defending, and of message-sending. But as a group, this is not an intimidating team; no one fears to play them. Other teams may respect their talent, may spend some time devising strategies for dealing with their depth, but that isn't the same.

Murray consistently has highlighted that as a team flaw, but doesn't put the pieces in place to make a real change. Maybe he doesn't think Boudreau will play the players he (BM) can afford to acquire. Maybe he's stuck in medieval times, when no-talent goons were good enough for enforcing. To me, that's a serious issue. And I don't think it's an arguable one.

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09-28-2013, 10:08 PM
  #29
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just to be clear so everyone understands Staubitz sucks as a player and as a fighter. He is not even a heavyweight. We need a heavyweight on the roster not sure if anyone's noticed the teams in the west are toughening up.
Maroon should play but imo he is too talented and valuable to be an enforcer nor is he a good enough fighter. He has 2nd line power forward upside
Beleskey as an enforcer is a joke

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09-28-2013, 10:09 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by DuckJet View Post
You said last season's roster was the softest in team history too and we had our second most successful season in team history. Excuse me if I don't buy your guarantee of all aspects. Though I do find that conclusion hilarious though. No Staubitz=the failure of every other cog in the machine. I've seen more logical stuff from the Vatanen and Etem crowd.
the team fell apart in the second half and it was a first round elimination. They even got physically outplayed by Detroit.
Wait that is supposed to be the second most successful season in team history? wtf

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09-28-2013, 10:26 PM
  #31
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the team fell apart in the second half and it was a first round elimination. They even got physically outplayed by Detroit.
Wait that is supposed to be the second most successful season in team history? wtf
Regular season. Whatever. It's not like we've never had worse regular seasons or been embarrassed in first round playoffs. As I recall correctly we had more goons on our 2008 team, we didn't have as high a winning percentage or goals for per game, and Dallas very nearly swept us out of the first round. I'm still ecstatic to hear about how roughly the same team that finished 3rd in the league will be a failure in EVERY single aspect because we waived Staubitz and may not dress Maroon every night. The same Maroon who's playing on the top line as I type.

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09-28-2013, 10:41 PM
  #32
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As I recall correctly we had more goons on our 2008 team, we didn't have as high a winning percentage or goals for per game, and Dallas very nearly swept us out of the first round.
Cup hangover, Nieds & Teemu distractions, Perry being injured, no #2C & playing a team that had our number in the playoffs were why we underachieved that season. Having goons/physical players had nothing to do with anything.

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09-28-2013, 10:56 PM
  #33
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Cup hangover, Nieds & Teemu distractions, Perry being injured, no #2C & playing a team that had our number in the playoffs were why we underachieved that season. Having goons/physical players had nothing to do with anything.
And it doesn't have a lot to do with scoring prowess, defense, goaltending, special teams, forechecking systems, offensive set ups, defensive positioning, etc. It has only to do with energy, intimidation, and protecting players from injury. Which are useful parts to the sport but they are absolutely not essential for the result on the scoreboard. To suggest that a lack of toughness (which I'd say we have at least some with guys like Beleskey, Maroon, Getzlaf, and Sbisa) will result in the failures of all the other aspects of this team is asinine at best. And we came within one goal of winning that Detroit series against a hot Howard so I fail to see how that's a good argument for the toughness side of things.

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09-28-2013, 10:58 PM
  #34
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So which players do you take off the team to add "toughness".

Not being snarky, asking who needs to go to make room.

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09-28-2013, 11:13 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by DuckJet View Post
And it doesn't have a lot to do with scoring prowess, defense, goaltending, special teams, forechecking systems, offensive set ups, defensive positioning, etc. It has only to do with energy, intimidation, and protecting players from injury. Which are useful parts to the sport but they are absolutely not essential for the result on the scoreboard. To suggest that a lack of toughness (which I'd say we have at least some with guys like Beleskey, Maroon, Getzlaf, and Sbisa) will result in the failures of all the other aspects of this team is asinine at best. And we came within one goal of winning that Detroit series against a hot Howard so I fail to see how that's a good argument for the toughness side of things.
Having physical players who get in on the forecheck and wear down the opposition over a 7 game series absolutely affects a teams offensive ability. If you have opposing defensemen looking over their shoulder and rushing their decisions in order to not get hit you're going to force a lot more turnovers and generate more offensive chances from it.

As far as fighting goes - it's a deterrent that can protect our skilled guys. If Fowler plays for the Boston Bruins does Stoll still ram him head first into the boards? Does Abdelkader still charge into Lydmans head at full speed?

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09-28-2013, 11:16 PM
  #36
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If Fowler plays for the Boston Bruins does Stoll still ram him head first into the boards? Does Abdelkader still charge into Lydmans head at full speed?
This isn't a good point. Players on the Bruins get cheap shotted, too. It's also counterfactual. No one can answer that question.

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09-28-2013, 11:16 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
So which players do you take off the team to add "toughness".

Not being snarky, asking who needs to go to make room.
That's the problem, we have too many good players that don't provide a physical presence. In order to change the identity a bit it would have to be at the sacrifice of a better player. Obviously Murray doesn't think it's worth moving someone out in order to bring in more sandpaper or it would have been done over the offseason.

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09-28-2013, 11:21 PM
  #38
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This isn't a good point. Players on the Bruins get cheap shotted, too. It's also counterfactual. No one can answer that question.
I can't think of many examples since the Cooke to Savard hit. That hit changed the Bruins identity and they've been one of the most successful teams in the NHL since.

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09-28-2013, 11:26 PM
  #39
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I still maintain that a full system collapse as a result of a lack of sandpaper is asinine. Yes it is a FACTOR. It's not the core of the success of a hockey club.

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09-28-2013, 11:28 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
So which players do you take off the team to add "toughness".

Not being snarky, asking who needs to go to make room.

Penner
Etem or Silf have no business on a 4th line so either of the 2 can wait for Teemu to retire

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09-28-2013, 11:29 PM
  #41
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I still maintain that a full system collapse as a result of a lack of sandpaper is asinine. Yes it is a FACTOR. It's not the core of the success of a hockey club.
no one said its the only reason you need a balance of both unless you are Chicago with 3 1st lines

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09-28-2013, 11:31 PM
  #42
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no one said its the only reason you need a balance of both unless you are Chicago with 3 1st lines
You said on the first page that this season will be a failure in ALL respects. That's absurd.

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09-28-2013, 11:33 PM
  #43
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I can't think of many examples since the Cooke to Savard hit. That hit changed the Bruins identity and they've been one of the most successful teams in the NHL since.
That doesn't necessarily follow. You're assuming that is the case, just as you are with the notion that Cam wouldn't be cheap shotted if he was on their roster.

Also, cheap shots don't always result in injuries like that, so it's not that surprising that you haven't heard of every incident. I hear no shortage of such complaints from my buddies that follow the B's.

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09-28-2013, 11:39 PM
  #44
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That doesn't necessarily follow. You're assuming that is the case, just as you are with the notion that Cam wouldn't be cheap shotted if he was on their roster.

Also, cheap shots don't always result in injuries like that, so it's not that surprising that you haven't heard of every incident. I hear no shortage of such complaints from my buddies that follow the B's.
I'm not assuming anything. You don't need statistically evidence to prove everything - the Bruins are one of the best teams in the league and their team toughness plays a large part in their identity. Obviously they've got some ridiculously skilled players to go with the toughness but that is their team identity. Which is why Seguin was traded despite his skill - he didn't fit in with the team style.

No they don't always result in injuries. But you ask any player on the Bs if they feel safer on the ice with Thornton/Lucic/Chara etc in the lineup than without I guarantee they say yes.

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09-28-2013, 11:42 PM
  #45
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That's the problem, we have too many good players that don't provide a physical presence. In order to change the identity a bit it would have to be at the sacrifice of a better player. Obviously Murray doesn't think it's worth moving someone out in order to bring in more sandpaper or it would have been done over the offseason.
Exactly. I also think he doesn't want to remove good cost controlled players when we are about to lose older players. He's planning for 2-3 years from now to be a contender IMO.

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Penner
Etem or Silf have no business on a 4th line so either of the 2 can wait for Teemu to retire
Penner was signed for top 6, but I've been loudly against reacquiring him the last 3 years, no argument. Silfverberg will be on the 2nd. I've also been wanting Etem in the AHL.

But that's still just one spot.

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09-28-2013, 11:45 PM
  #46
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You said on the first page that this season will be a failure in ALL respects. That's absurd.
we are worse up front, worse defense, goaltending a question mark and one of the softest teams in the league

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09-28-2013, 11:46 PM
  #47
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I'm not assuming anything. You don't need statistically evidence to prove everything - the Bruins are one of the best teams in the league and their team toughness plays a large part in their identity. Obviously they've got some ridiculously skilled players to go with the toughness but that is their team identity. Which is why Seguin was traded despite his skill - he didn't fit in with the team style.
You don't need statistical evidence, but you do need evidence. An anecdote or two isn't that.

Yes, they are a physical team, but no one was disputing that.

Furthermore, how do you know that is why he was traded? It sounded like the issues with Seguin were a little more complicated than you're painting them as.

Quote:
No they don't always result in injuries. But you ask any player on the Bs if they feel safer on the ice with Thornton/Lucic/Chara etc in the lineup than without I guarantee they say yes.
That is anecdotal. There are no shortage of things that people believe is true that have no evidence to support them.

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09-28-2013, 11:47 PM
  #48
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Are we the slowest team in the entire league with Etem out of the line up? Serious question. We can't even retrieve pucks tonight I now see why Bruce says he will be in the lineup when healthy.

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09-28-2013, 11:54 PM
  #49
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Furthermore, how do you know that is why he was traded? It sounded like the issues with Seguin were a little more complicated than you're painting them as.


From about 1:10 on they talk about the Seguin situation.

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09-28-2013, 11:56 PM
  #50
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Are we the slowest team in the entire league with Etem out of the line up? Serious question. We can't even retrieve pucks tonight I now see why Bruce says he will be in the lineup when healthy.
Lindholm, Cogs, Fowler, Teemu, Vatanen, Palmieri, Lovejoy are all great skaters. Holland & Koivu are also pretty decent skaters. We're far from the slowest team in the league with a single player missing.

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