HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Toronto Maple Leafs
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Way around the no re-signing bought out players

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-13-2005, 10:41 AM
  #101
ULF_55
Global Moderator
 
ULF_55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Mountain Standard Ti
Posts: 58,174
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie
i'm sure lots of teams were after daigle. was ottawa not legitimately the worst team in the nhl at the time?

regardless, there's now a lottery which prevents teams from purposely throwing games when they know they have a shot at finishing dead last.
A reason for the lottery ... makes tanking more risky ... but still puts more balls in your bag.

ULF_55 is offline  
Old
07-13-2005, 10:46 AM
  #102
Frankie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,178
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
You can keep telling yourself that there is true competitive balance and when the small markets lose their star Franchise players at as early as 25 now and star drafting early and starting all over again ..
so basically you're saying this 300+ day lockout was a huge waste of time and nothing is going to change when they come back?

i can't argue that point, but i really hope you're wrong.

on the point of the very young ufa's, if this is true, it basically throws jfj's "player development" plan out the window. teams won't need to develop their own players. every summer, they can sign star ufa's who are just entering their prime.

amateur scouting and player development will be useless.

Frankie is offline  
Old
07-13-2005, 10:48 AM
  #103
Frankie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,178
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
A reason for the lottery ... makes tanking more risky ... but still puts more balls in your bag.
yup. makes "tanking" a thing of the past really.

what's the difference between "tanking" and "re-building"?

Frankie is offline  
Old
07-13-2005, 10:48 AM
  #104
ULF_55
Global Moderator
 
ULF_55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Mountain Standard Ti
Posts: 58,174
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie
amateur scouting and player development will be useless.
The more things change ...

Best joke you've thrown at us in a long time!


ULF_55 is offline  
Old
07-13-2005, 10:59 AM
  #105
Frankie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,178
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
The more things change ...

Best joke you've thrown at us in a long time!

tremendous argument.

ufa's at age 25. and if you believe the fans in this thread, toronto will be the #1 destination, by a country mile, for almost all ufa's.

why is amateur scouting and player development important to the leafs under those circumstances?

Frankie is offline  
Old
07-13-2005, 11:02 AM
  #106
Mess
Global Moderator
 
Mess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 62,869
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by habfan4
You've gone from suggesting that "Toronto is using these small market teams as their farm system for development purposes" to "agreeing" with me that the Leafs have as good a chance as anyone to compete.
How would you best describe the situation when a 25 year old Rick Nash leaves Columbus and joins a big market which could very well include Toronto, his home Province and Country.

The Blue Jackets have just spent 7 years making and developing him, some of which came from revenue sharing money and now that he is reaching his peek, he could leave for the Leafs.

I spelled it out for you in simplistic terms that if you read between the lines that is really what this new CBA is promoting .. The NHL wants the Star Players in big markets to maximize league revenue.. As it goes up so does the Hard Cap figure and the NHLPA gains..

Bottom line : Big Market teams are forced to revenue share to keep some teams alive and for their money they get access to the best young players.

Your own team has a lot of the same things and advantage now that Toronto does .. Now a 25 year old Crosby will become a UFA and all things including $$, where do you think he wants to play ??


Last edited by Mess: 07-13-2005 at 11:07 AM.
Mess is offline  
Old
07-13-2005, 11:02 AM
  #107
mydnyte
Registered User
 
mydnyte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Country: Italy
Posts: 11,198
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie
yup. makes "tanking" a thing of the past really.

what's the difference between "tanking" and "re-building"?
Rebuilding is when you draft Mario and win a few cups, tanking is when you draft Daigle and win squat.

mydnyte is offline  
Old
07-13-2005, 11:08 AM
  #108
ULF_55
Global Moderator
 
ULF_55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Mountain Standard Ti
Posts: 58,174
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie
tremendous argument.

why is amateur scouting and player development important to the leafs under those circumstances?
No, you misunderstand, according to most the Leafs scouting and development has been useless all along.

I thought it was a good joke, ironic.

ULF_55 is offline  
Old
07-13-2005, 11:11 AM
  #109
Mess
Global Moderator
 
Mess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 62,869
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie
so basically you're saying this 300+ day lockout was a huge waste of time and nothing is going to change when they come back?

i can't argue that point, but i really hope you're wrong.

on the point of the very young ufa's, if this is true, it basically throws jfj's "player development" plan out the window. teams won't need to develop their own players. every summer, they can sign star ufa's who are just entering their prime.

amateur scouting and player development will be useless.
This was always about $$$$ and that issue has been addressed to a point.

For the Leafs scouting is still important .. but they could use draft picks are trade bait more then ever to win the cup now if you can steal 25-27 year olds ..

Mess is offline  
Old
07-13-2005, 11:17 AM
  #110
mooseOAK*
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 42,437
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
How would you best describe the situation when a 25 year old Rick Nash leaves Columbus and joins a big market which could very well include Toronto, his home Province and Country.

The Blue Jackets have just spent 7 years making and developing him, some of which came from revenue sharing money and now that he is reaching his peek, he could leave for the Leafs.
Why would Columbus, averaging over 17,000 fans per game, require revenue sharing?

mooseOAK* is offline  
Old
07-13-2005, 11:20 AM
  #111
Mess
Global Moderator
 
Mess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 62,869
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Why would Columbus, averaging over 17,000 fans per game, require revenue sharing?
Because the concept of Revenue sharing is based on market size equalization. Dah !!!!

Why are Calgary and Edmonton also receiving assistance .. ??

Mess is offline  
Old
07-13-2005, 11:26 AM
  #112
ULF_55
Global Moderator
 
ULF_55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Mountain Standard Ti
Posts: 58,174
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Why would Columbus, averaging over 17,000 fans per game, require revenue sharing?
17,000 times average ticket price of $41

41*17000*42=29,274,000


19,000 times average ticket price of $56
56*19000*42=44,688,000


Last edited by ULF_55: 07-13-2005 at 11:33 AM.
ULF_55 is offline  
Old
07-13-2005, 11:30 AM
  #113
habfan4
Registered User
 
habfan4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Deus Amat Pretzel
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,424
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
I can't believe how gullible people are in believing that .. First you could take the High and Low in spending Pitts and NYR and look at success on the ice and make your own conclusion ..
My conclusion is that one is a poorly managed unsuccessful team that used money to try to solve it's on ice problems, the other is a decently managed small market team that used (notice the past tense) to watch it's draftees waltz out the door when they could no longer afford them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
Second and more important .. Its the same players they just make less money ..
Making less money = More affordable (and not just for the Colarado's of the league).

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
When Forsberg and Foote rejoin Colorado and Sakic, Blake, and Hejduk, Tanguay all to fit under a cap and Pittsburgh struggles to get above the floor and you see what they have ..
With 10 players under contract for total dollar figure that reaches roughly $22.5, the Avs will be hard pressed to resign Forsberg and Foote (and keep the players you mentioned i.e. not buyout a Blake or Tanguay) plus fill out their roster. Even if they can do it (sign them and the rest of the roster) they'll still have to wave goodbye to Vincent Damphousse, Teemu Selanne & Paul Kariya.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
Then that $13 mil extra spending will make it look like its $113 mil on the ice.
Now even if they can attract a few UFA and spend to the floor .. Are they really in the same league as Colorado ??
$13 million is going to look like $113 million on the ice - Hyperbole is fun Colorado will have a relatively slight spending advantage in that they can spend to the cap limit while others may not, they'll also have to deal with restrictions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
The only thing you have is lower salaries ..Same players .. Doesn't matter if the difference in spending is 30+ mil or 13 mil if the players remain the same ..
Addressed above. The downward pressure on salaries makes a difference in the ability of small and mid-market teams to compensate players at the same level as the NYRs of the league.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
You can keep telling yourself that there is true competitive balance and when the small markets lose their star Franchise players at as early as 25 now and star drafting early and starting all over again ..
Thanks I will. Given the uncertain lay of the land post CBA, I'd advise you to keep repeating your business as usual for large market clubs mantra.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
How are you going to attract prize UFA in Pittsburgh .. Players will be going to there for max $$$ since playing for a contender is not a possibility .
This CBA is not simply going to put restrictions on player spending, it's the equivalent of HF Boards being nuked. The reset button has just been pushed and the salary playing field has been made very level. Couple that with the number of players available (ie. the impending redistribution of now affordable talent) and the contenders of tomorrow may not be the contenders of yesteryear.

habfan4 is offline  
Old
07-13-2005, 11:32 AM
  #114
mooseOAK*
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 42,437
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
Because the concept of Revenue sharing is based on market size equalization. Dah !!!!

Why are Calgary and Edmonton also receiving assistance .. ??
Because their market size is a lot smaller than Columbus'.

mooseOAK* is offline  
Old
07-13-2005, 11:36 AM
  #115
mooseOAK*
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 42,437
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
17,000 times average ticket price of $41

41*17000*42=29,274,000


19,000 times average ticket price of $56
56*19000*42=44,688,000
Thanks for the math, does that put Columbus in the bracket that will get revenue sharing? Fire that calculator up for all 30 teams and get back to me.

mooseOAK* is offline  
Old
07-13-2005, 11:38 AM
  #116
ULF_55
Global Moderator
 
ULF_55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Mountain Standard Ti
Posts: 58,174
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Thanks for the math, does that put Columbus in the bracket that will get revenue sharing? Fire that calculator up for all 30 teams and get back to me.
http://www.andrewsstarspage.com/NHL-...ket-prices.htm

go to it.

Good luck finding an honest, publicly audited luxury suite revenue report to finish the numbers.


Last edited by ULF_55: 07-13-2005 at 11:51 AM.
ULF_55 is offline  
Old
07-13-2005, 11:39 AM
  #117
Mess
Global Moderator
 
Mess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 62,869
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Because their market size is a lot smaller than Columbus'.
So !!!

The Revenue sharing as rumoured so far is the top 10 Revenue producing teams will donate to the 10 lowest ..

Columbus and Calgary and Edmonton all fall into the bottom 10 and attendance figures are not the issue as much as what you can charge to watch the game in your market ..

Mess is offline  
Old
07-13-2005, 11:44 AM
  #118
Frankie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,178
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mydnyte
Rebuilding is when you draft Mario and win a few cups, tanking is when you draft Daigle and win squat.
so washington drafted ovechkin. a "tank" or a "rebuild"? or do we have to wait years to define what they did in 03-04?

there's no difference in "tanking" and "rebuilding". "tanking" is just a sinister term that people are enjoying saying these days.

Frankie is offline  
Old
07-13-2005, 11:45 AM
  #119
habfan4
Registered User
 
habfan4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Deus Amat Pretzel
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,424
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
How would you best describe the situation when a 25 year old Rick Nash leaves Columbus and joins a big market which could very well include Toronto, his home Province and Country.

The Blue Jackets have just spent 7 years making and developing him, some of which came from revenue sharing money and now that he is reaching his peek, he could leave for the Leafs.

I spelled it out for you in simplistic terms that if you read between the lines that is really what this new CBA is promoting .. The NHL wants the Star Players in big markets to maximize league revenue.. As it goes up so does the Hard Cap figure and the NHLPA gains..

Bottom line : Big Market teams are forced to revenue share to keep some teams alive and for their money they get access to the best young players.

Your own team has a lot of the same things and advantage now that Toronto does .. Now a 25 year old Crosby will become a UFA and all things including $$, where do you think he wants to play ??
Let's clear something up before we continue.

Where are you getting this 25 year old free agent number (TSN is reporting a reduction to 27 over four years - TSN LINK) and this 7 years service/NHL experience concept?

The old defintion for Group III free agents (the ones we're talking about) was as follows:

Group III -- The players marked (III) have qualified for Group III Free Agency (age 31 or older with at least four years of NHL experience) and are therefore unrestricted Free Agents.

habfan4 is offline  
Old
07-13-2005, 11:52 AM
  #120
Leaf Army
Registered User
 
Leaf Army's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Leaf Nation
Posts: 8,693
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie
i'm sure lots of teams were after daigle. was ottawa not legitimately the worst team in the nhl at the time?
I don't remember the specific details, but there was serious concern and suspicions at the time that Ottawa intentionally tanked a few of their last games of the season to ensure they'd get first overall.

I'm pretty sure the league even investigated. The incident was the biggest reason why the NHL implemented the lottery.

Leaf Army is offline  
Old
07-13-2005, 11:53 AM
  #121
Frankie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,178
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
No, you misunderstand, according to most the Leafs scouting and development has been useless all along.

I thought it was a good joke, ironic.
ah yes, i missed the joke. whooooooooosh!

ignore the leafs for a minute (tough task, i know), and look at amateur scouting and player development for all nhl teams. if players are ufa at 25, or even 27, amateur scouting, the entry draft, and player development becomes FAR less important for everyone.

Frankie is offline  
Old
07-13-2005, 11:55 AM
  #122
Frankie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,178
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
I don't remember the specific details, but there was serious concern and suspicions at the time that Ottawa intentionally tanked a few of their last games of the season to ensure they'd get first overall.

I'm pretty sure the league even investigated. The incident was the biggest reason why the NHL implemented the lottery.
well there ya go. same thing with pittsburgh in '84 i think??????

and the lottery has made it almost pointless to throw those last few games.

Frankie is offline  
Old
07-13-2005, 11:55 AM
  #123
Mess
Global Moderator
 
Mess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 62,869
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by habfan4
Let's clear something up before we continue.

Where are you getting this 25 year old free agent number (TSN is reporting a reduction to 27 over four years - TSN LINK) and this 7 years service/NHL experience concept?

The old defintion for Group III free agents (the ones we're talking about) was as follows:

Group III -- The players marked (III) have qualified for Group III Free Agency (age 31 or older with at least four years of NHL experience) and are therefore unrestricted Free Agents.
The River in Africa

I just made up the 25 years old or seven years of service .. but I based that on the 1000's of people reporting it ..

Mess is offline  
Old
07-13-2005, 11:56 AM
  #124
Leaf Army
Registered User
 
Leaf Army's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Leaf Nation
Posts: 8,693
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by habfan4
Let's clear something up before we continue.

Where are you getting this 25 year old free agent number (TSN is reporting a reduction to 27 over four years - TSN LINK) and this 7 years service/NHL experience concept?
A lot of people are reporting that UFA will come at age 27 or after 7 years NHL experience- whichever comes first.

Russ Conway was talking about it on Leafs Lunch and Bill Watters and Mark Osborne both agreed on the issue.

Leaf Army is offline  
Old
07-13-2005, 12:01 PM
  #125
ULF_55
Global Moderator
 
ULF_55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Mountain Standard Ti
Posts: 58,174
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by habfan4
Let's clear something up before we continue.
We have to get a copy of the new CBA before we can do that.

ULF_55 is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:34 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.