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KHL Expansion part III

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Old
01-05-2014, 12:11 PM
  #951
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Originally Posted by thevreelander View Post
09-10 didn't appear overnight. You can't even comprehend how to build a winning team in the NHL because you think the league has influence in sending players to teams. Let's break down some key draft picks/trades that the Chicago Blawkhawks DID(by themselves not with league help) to get out of their awful rut:

Toews 1st round in 06

Sharp acquired in a trade with the Flyers

Duncan Keith 1st round in 02

Dustin Byfuglein 8th round 03

Patrick Kane 1st round 07

Kris Versteeg 5th round 04



Most of these guys could of been drafted/acquired by Canadian teams but were passed up because Canadian GMs didn't see the potential? They didn't build the winner it has nothing to do with the NHL as a league it has all to do with Chicago seeing the potential. Maybe you should check out the Blackhawks board or something and have a chat with the guys over there, I'm sure they'll educate you even more.


Here's a question that hasn't been brought up by this board yet:

Will NHL expansion affect the KHL and KHL expansion? While I believe the talent pool has the most depth ever in hockey history, it's sure to take a hit with all this expansion worldwide; in the KHL and NHL. I see this hurting the smaller prospect leagues the most especially the AHL and SHL since the KHL and NHL can always just pay the bubble players more.
No, the league doesn't send them, of course, but there is more or less a collusion of interests that come together and make it so that US teams get better players, and get subsidized by Canadian players. Canadian team owners often do not give a rats ass about their teams, as they make insane profits no matter how bad they suck - that's why I stopped being a leafs fan.

Most of those fellows for the blackhawks that you mentioned came around in 07-08. Regardless of when they made trades or whatnot, they started playing there in that year, they got a respectable team, the bandwagoners started pouring in and everything since then is history... like their doubling of ticket prices and other stuff.



NHL expansion occurred big time in the 1990s in part because they sucked up dozens of players from the former Soviet Union. That, and their desire to expand money making teams. You know, under capitalism if you don't have continual growth you have a crisis - and we know what nonstop continual growth is - it's cancer.
I don't remember hockey of say the 1980s or earlier. But, people tell me that the quality back then was much higher than it is today, that expansion watered down the quality of the league.

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01-05-2014, 12:23 PM
  #952
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"Bandwagon" fans who come out to games when the team wasn't even a playoff contender yet. I don't think you understand what a 'bandwagon' fan is.

If ownership spits on you and refuses to put any money into the team or broadcast games, why go? When that changed people came out again to support their team. That doesn't make them bandwagon fans. I remember going to a sellout in '08, the team was already mathematically out of the playoffs - were those 21,000 bandwagon fans supporting a losing team for the hell of it?

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01-06-2014, 04:40 PM
  #953
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This thread is/was about KHL Expansion.... its not about "Bandwagon" fans, the Chicago Black Hawks or Leafs, the NHL. Any further derailing of this thread & or political or socio economic comments unrelated to the KHL specifically will continue to be deleted, Posters receiving Infractions. Stay on topic, be civil.

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01-06-2014, 05:26 PM
  #954
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KHL, any other strong leagues and hockey federation in general needs to help the development of smaller hockey nations and leagues because in the end those KHL and other bigger leagues will gain the most in the end. They would gain better talent pool, more viewers and fans from those countries (which means money) and just overall greater interest in hockey, and lastly get a good image. Denmark is a very good example. They are creating talent in very good hockey schools. That talent is usually sucked up into Sweden. It is like they are a Swedish farm team.

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01-06-2014, 06:17 PM
  #955
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Originally Posted by bobbeaver View Post
KHL, any other strong leagues and hockey federation in general needs to help the development of smaller hockey nations and leagues because in the end those KHL and other bigger leagues will gain the most in the end. They would gain better talent pool, more viewers and fans from those countries (which means money) and just overall greater interest in hockey, and lastly get a good image. Denmark is a very good example. They are creating talent in very good hockey schools. That talent is usually sucked up into Sweden. It is like they are a Swedish farm team.
What do you mean by helping? The KHL cannot come and build rinks or support clubs or junior programs without an initiative of the hockey federation or other groups in these countries. Milan applied to the KHL becuase Migliore wanted the club to develope further and to promote it internationally, Gdansk had a support of Polish hockey federation, so these clubs tried to join the KHL, not the other way round. Broadcasting can help only to gain interest to ice hockey, but it's up to people to change the state of the game in "smaller hockey nations". If these people want the KHL to help, they need come and show that their project has some business sense and then the league might help them by sponsoring (in any measures) or even accept their candidate to the MHL/VHL/KHL.

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01-06-2014, 06:41 PM
  #956
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Originally Posted by Sucrologist View Post
What do you mean by helping? The KHL cannot come and build rinks or support clubs or junior programs without an initiative of the hockey federation or other groups in these countries. Milan applied to the KHL becuase Migliore wanted the club to develope further and to promote it internationally, Gdansk had a support of Polish hockey federation, so these clubs tried to join the KHL, not the other way round. Broadcasting can help only to gain interest to ice hockey, but it's up to people to change the state of the game in "smaller hockey nations". If these people want the KHL to help, they need come and show that their project has some business sense and then the league might help them by sponsoring (in any measures) or even accept their candidate to the MHL/VHL/KHL.
Oh i agree with what u said definitively they should show interest. But i dont think those national leagues dont even know they can ask for it. I didnt mean necessarily a monetary help. I was thinking more along of teaching. Teach the coaches of those countries how to produce the players n set up the schools, coaching techniques. Show how to develop the league, and what contacts can be shared to help. Basically so they can do with what they have effectively. When that happens interest will grow and more rinks will be built. Hell you can even help with how to find the money from EU or where ever to build rinks. And you tie those nations to the russian sphere of influence more easily and you dont spend much money and its rather low risk. ofcourse any results would come in 15 years respectively


Last edited by bobbeaver: 01-06-2014 at 06:48 PM.
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01-06-2014, 09:09 PM
  #957
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Originally Posted by Sucrologist View Post
What do you mean by helping? The KHL cannot come and build rinks or support clubs or junior programs without an initiative of the hockey federation or other groups in these countries. Milan applied to the KHL becuase Migliore wanted the club to develope further and to promote it internationally, Gdansk had a support of Polish hockey federation, so these clubs tried to join the KHL, not the other way round. Broadcasting can help only to gain interest to ice hockey, but it's up to people to change the state of the game in "smaller hockey nations". If these people want the KHL to help, they need come and show that their project has some business sense and then the league might help them by sponsoring (in any measures) or even accept their candidate to the MHL/VHL/KHL.
One way of helping development in general would be not to expand too rapidly.

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Originally Posted by bobbeaver View Post
Oh i agree with what u said definitively they should show interest. But i dont think those national leagues dont even know they can ask for it. I didnt mean necessarily a monetary help. I was thinking more along of teaching. Teach the coaches of those countries how to produce the players n set up the schools, coaching techniques. Show how to develop the league, and what contacts can be shared to help. Basically so they can do with what they have effectively. When that happens interest will grow and more rinks will be built. Hell you can even help with how to find the money from EU or where ever to build rinks. And you tie those nations to the russian sphere of influence more easily and you dont spend much money and its rather low risk. ofcourse any results would come in 15 years respectively
That's what the IIHF is for. They do that job in the smaller countries.

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01-06-2014, 11:07 PM
  #958
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One way of helping development in general would be not to expand too rapidly.



That's what the IIHF is for. They do that job in the smaller countries.
Jussi dont make me laugh They havent done anything, or helped any country except Korea because of the olympics. They should and its their job but IIHF sits on its ass doing nothing. They are not haveing seminars for judges to make the criteria the same, they dont have mentoring program of any sorts or even seminars, let alone workshops or academies. They havent even peeped into the offices of hockey undeveloped countries. The work done by denmark, France, Norway, the swiss is done by their national federations. Or they are to inapt to do it right in any way
My point is it goes into everyones favour if hockey spreads

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01-06-2014, 11:30 PM
  #959
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Jussi dont make me laugh They havent done anything, or helped any country except Korea because of the olympics. They should and its their job but IIHF sits on its ass doing nothing. They are not haveing seminars for judges to make the criteria the same, they dont have mentoring program of any sorts or even seminars, let alone workshops or academies. They havent even peeped into the offices of hockey undeveloped countries. The work done by denmark, France, Norway, the swiss is done by their national federations. Or they are to inapt to do it right in any way
My point is it goes into everyones favour if hockey spreads
The national federation has to do their part in getting the IIHF involved, that's how it works. They don't just "travel around the world and seek problem areas". If a country wants to set up a hockey federation or a program, they'll contact the IIHF and they'll help in getting things started for example. You need to check their site.

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01-07-2014, 07:23 AM
  #960
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The national federation has to do their part in getting the IIHF involved, that's how it works. They don't just "travel around the world and seek problem areas". If a country wants to set up a hockey federation or a program, they'll contact the IIHF and they'll help in getting things started for example. You need to check their site.
But you dont stay home twiddle your thumbs either. Funny how many roof organizations are very (pro)active in promotion and create events and help out in many ways and give opportunities. They approach the federations themselves. Or if they dont they give clear signs they want to be approached by creating events (seminars workshops and so on) and who wants to come comes. It shows openness and willingness to help and that they do have the expertise. When was the last time IIHF did something like that on any larger scale.

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01-07-2014, 08:43 AM
  #961
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But you dont stay home twiddle your thumbs either. Funny how many roof organizations are very (pro)active in promotion and create events and help out in many ways and give opportunities. They approach the federations themselves. Or if they dont they give clear signs they want to be approached by creating events (seminars workshops and so on) and who wants to come comes. It shows openness and willingness to help and that they do have the expertise. When was the last time IIHF did something like that on any larger scale.
All I know about it is that Finnish hockey magazine Jääkiekkolehti did a series of stories a couple of years ago on hockey odd/small locations and I think it was somewhere in the Middle-East or the Arabian peninsula, the foreigners who work there wanted to start playing hockey. Only rink was essentially one in a giant shopping mall. Eventually the locals got interested in it as well which lead to making it more organized. There were some Finns involved and they helped them get in touch with IIHF which in turn helped them get the process going (creating a federation, a national team, opponents and officials etc.). I think you also overestimate how big of an organization the IIHF is, they don't have manpower/resources to "tour around the world". Remember that there's loads of tournaments going around over the world during the hockey season where their focus is(because that's where the revenue from the Worlds goes to).

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01-07-2014, 04:01 PM
  #962
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All I know about it is that Finnish hockey magazine Jääkiekkolehti did a series of stories a couple of years ago on hockey odd/small locations and I think it was somewhere in the Middle-East or the Arabian peninsula, the foreigners who work there wanted to start playing hockey. Only rink was essentially one in a giant shopping mall. Eventually the locals got interested in it as well which lead to making it more organized. There were some Finns involved and they helped them get in touch with IIHF which in turn helped them get the process going (creating a federation, a national team, opponents and officials etc.). I think you also overestimate how big of an organization the IIHF is, they don't have manpower/resources to "tour around the world". Remember that there's loads of tournaments going around over the world during the hockey season where their focus is(because that's where the revenue from the Worlds goes to).
Exactly the organize the worlds where the money is. I mean theoretically if u had contacts it wouldnt be expensive or hard to make a mentoring program like sending coaches to different leagues for 2-3 years with a stipulation they have to go back home and work there. There is lots that can be done without spending to much money. In seminars or workshops you pay the lecturers and you charge the participants to cover the coast, or get sponsors. Doesnt take much. There is general lack of effort. That is why i said KHL would be perfect to fill the vacuum. It has the reasorces and contacts. KHL would get more revenue from the interest and popularity than IIHF would and would get the talent grown from there aswell. I know its partly utopian thinking but not by much. It would show the western developed hockey countries its not all about russia, but that KHL has good intentions aswell. It would make things easier to acquire other famous clubs or lure them into KHL.

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01-07-2014, 05:28 PM
  #963
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One way of helping development in general would be not to expand too rapidly.
Gotta disagree with you here, expanding to the likes of Gdansk or Milan would only improve hockey culture and expand the development more into these countries with perhaps junior teams in the MHL and farm teams in their country leagues-something Jokerit should look into.

I consider it a numbers game when talking about development, a large population of Canadians play hockey and with a large population playing a specific sport, that country will ultimately be dominant in the specific sport. Majority of people in Finland play hockey which is why they can compete against the likes of Canada and Russia with the small population they have.

Very few countries in the world are like Suisse and Slovakia which have a below average number of registered players and still are able to compete against the top countries through solid development and teaching. Russia is probably the best nation when it comes to registered players and best development you could have. Watching documentaries like Kuznestov's and Ovechkin's shows the great development in Russia. Even if you suck as a player, playing against better players will ALWAYS make you better and KHL is the best thing for the less developed countries to get better like Poland, Italy, Ukraine, Belarus, and Kazakhstan.

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01-08-2014, 03:44 PM
  #964
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Kick these teams:

Amur
Vladivostok
Novokuznetsk
Sibir
Avtomobilist
Yugra
Neftekhimik
Spartak
Vityaz
Severstal


Replace with:

Djurgårdens IF (SWE)
Aik (SWE)
Malmö (SWE)
Frölunda (SWE)
TPS (FIN)
HIFK (FIN)
JYP (FIN)
Eisbären (GER)
Adler (GER)
Bern (SUI)
Salzburg (AUT)
Paris (FRA, lol)

----------------

4 Divisions:

Nordic Division:

Djurgården
Aik
Frölunda
Malmö
Jokerit
TPS
HIFK
JYP

Continental Division:

Eisbären
Adler
Lev
Slovan
Medvescak
Bern
Salzburg
Paris

Moscow Division:

Dyn MSK
CSKA
Lokomotiv
Atlant
SKA
Torpedo
Minsk
Riga

East Division:

Avangard
Traktor
Barys
Metallurg Mg
Salavat Yulaev
Ak Bars
Donbass
Sochi

If Tolyatti joins the league Donbass has to be tossed here.

58 games regular season:

28 games within the division + 16 games with closest division + 12 games with the other two divisions (you sometimes doesn't play certain teams in a season) + 4 extra rivalry games.

-------------------

Examples of rivalry games:

Djurgårdens IF - Aik
Jokerit - HIFK
CSKA - SKA
Salavat - Ak Bars
Donbass - Sochi
Adler - Eisbären

Etc...

I might consider this if my team (Djurgården) ends up in a hopeless situation in the domestic league system...

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01-08-2014, 03:55 PM
  #965
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Originally Posted by pulverapa View Post

Replace with:

Djurgårdens IF (SWE)
Aik (SWE)
Malmö (SWE)
Frölunda (SWE)
TPS (FIN)
HIFK (FIN)
JYP (FIN)
Eisbären (GER)
Adler (GER)
Bern (SUI)
Salzburg (AUT)
Paris (FRA, lol)
Who is going to allows that?

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01-08-2014, 04:00 PM
  #966
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Who is going to allows that?
If KHL ever wants to expand in a serious way, they need to get rid of at least 10 Russian teams... 24 Russian teams in the league..!? And you are right, they will never allow that, so the expansion will not be very interesting... My scenario will probably never happen.

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01-08-2014, 04:13 PM
  #967
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Uh. How about no? I'll pick Amur over any swedish team any day. 4 swe teams? 3 fin teams? Yeah, dream on. He who pays the piper calls the tune.

Kick Avto? Sibir? And replace them with some european villages? HA HA HA!

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01-08-2014, 04:15 PM
  #968
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Originally Posted by pulverapa View Post
If KHL ever wants to expand in a serious way, they need to get rid of at least 10 Russian teams... 24 Russian teams in the league..!? And you are right, they will never allow that, so the expansion will not be very interesting... My scenario will probably never happen.
I am saying Sweden and Finland will never allow for these teams to leave...

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01-08-2014, 04:16 PM
  #969
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If KHL ever wants to expand in a serious way, they need to get rid of at least 10 Russian teams... 24 Russian teams in the league..!? And you are right, they will never allow that, so the expansion will not be very interesting... My scenario will probably never happen.
Dobass if anything would be in the Moscow division not eastern. it is geographically more west than Moscow.
Also i doubt there will ever be more foreign than russian teams. I believe there will be 50/50%, 16 foreign 16 russian teams

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01-08-2014, 04:19 PM
  #970
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Dobass if anything would be in the Moscow division not eastern. it is geographically more west than Moscow.
Also i doubt there will ever be more foreign than russian teams. I believe there will be 50/50%, 16 foreign 16 russian teams
I put Donbass there for those rivalry games against Sochi. Not everybody can have the cake.

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01-08-2014, 04:22 PM
  #971
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Uh. How about no? I'll pick Amur over any swedish team any day. 4 swe teams? 3 fin teams? Yeah, dream on. He who pays the piper calls the tune.

Kick Avto? Sibir? And replace them with some european villages? HA HA HA!
I am not dreaming anything. But this is a preferable scenario.

Is it not enough with 13-14 Russian teams!?!?

Avtomobilist and Sibir is too far away. Avangard and Traktor can stay though, they are too good.

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01-08-2014, 04:43 PM
  #972
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I put Donbass there for those rivalry games against Sochi. Not everybody can have the cake.
There is cake?! i want some ;D lol and i like Sibir, they have a good team and high attendance. they will also have a very s****y Arena


Last edited by stv11: 01-09-2014 at 06:30 AM.
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01-08-2014, 04:48 PM
  #973
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I am not dreaming anything. But this is a preferable scenario.

Is it not enough with 13-14 Russian teams!?!?

Avtomobilist and Sibir is too far away. Avangard and Traktor can stay though, they are too good.
Preferable for who? Those are major Russian cities, multi-million-strong cities, scientific centers where are space rockets, airplanes and 5th generation fighter jets are being build. Who don't have any other big sport teams there. And you think someone will kick them out, with KHL first of all being a social project? No one cares if it's too far away. It is Russia and Russia is big. If someone is saying that some city is too far away, it may seem like someone is having a problem with that, and you don't want others to think that you do. Why do you think they created a completely new team in Vladivostok? And it has a 100% attendance with average ticket price of $30? For the same reason an APEC summit was held there. Russia is developing the far east part of the country. KHL is a part of that. They aren't going anywhere.

KHL is expanding just fine. So far 1 team per country is more than enough.

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01-08-2014, 09:19 PM
  #974
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KHL is expanding just fine. So far 1 team per country is more than enough.
I thought KHL wanted to be european league which countries cares about? You think other fanbases in Finland gives a **** about how Jokerit will do in KHL, or follow/watch their games? You think if KHL ever gets their hands on a swedish team, that Sweden will unite behind it and cheer and follow it?

Yeah good luck with that. Adding 1 team in each country (at least western, no idea how many people care in the eastern european countries), will be extremely foolish. It won't pay off. You'll remove rivalries, and no, 99,99999999% of the swedish and likely finnish population has never heard of any of these teams: (well we've had some minor news about Vityaz when they assaulted other players on the ice or whatever the story was, something about MMA fighters on skates?)
Quote:
Amur
Vladivostok
Novokuznetsk
Sibir
Avtomobilist
Yugra
Neftekhimik
Spartak
Vityaz
Severstal
and would very very likely not attend any games played against them.

So basically, by adding 1 team from each country you'll get a couple of thousand fans at best, and that is praying for most of the fanbases not to bail. Not sure how that's supposed to pay off. Much higher salaries and traveling costs + less fan interest which equals less sponsorships (unless some rich russian wants to throw money away) = no money.

If they want Finland and Sweden to care, they somehow have to invite a lot more teams than 1 from each country.

KHL can't be a "Euro league" and a Russian league. It has to choose one.


Last edited by Jonimaus: 01-08-2014 at 09:27 PM.
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01-08-2014, 10:28 PM
  #975
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I disagree. If Jokerit becomes THE team from Finland with all the best Finnish players not in the NHL, then Finland will rally behind it and the Finnish league will look like minor league peasant irrelevancy

at least that's the plan

just because there's college football in texas doesn't mean they don't all care about the cowboys.

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