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5 Players that Transcended the Sport

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Old
07-13-2005, 12:08 AM
  #26
Bring Back Bucky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Sorry mr. perfect you're right he was on 8 cup winning teams. I'm sorry I dont have a love for stats like you seem to have.

Who's talking about Wayne Gretzky here? We're talking about Howe and Rocket. Dont start with Wayne again.

I have no particular affinity for stats, but when I use them as you were so keen on doing them above, I at least have the common sense to use them correctly.

You'll kindly refrain from telling me what I may discuss, thanks just the same.

It would also be beneficial if you'd clear out your p.m.s so you can receive them. I'd rather discuss your bizarre responses to my posts in private than embarass you in an open forum.

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07-13-2005, 12:08 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Well despite the fact that most people consider Richard top 2 in goal scoring ever and definately better then Howe you want to get stats into play. Hey Gordie's got the longevity but longevity doesn't make someone better. You want to go by stats then let's go.

Rocket Richard:

Regular Season:

Rocket Richard: 544 Goals in 978 Games
Gordie Howe- 801 Goals in 1767 Games

Goals per game averages:
Rocket Richard- 0.56
Gordie Howe- 0.45

Playoffs:
Rocket Richard: 82 goals in 133 games
Gordie Howe- 68 Goals in 157 games

Goals per game averages:
Rocket Richard- 0.62
Gordie Howe- 0.43

So let's see.. Rocket is definately better. Yeah he scored more regular season goals but that's more because of longevity. If we look at the goals per game averages for regular season Rocket was better. Playoffs Howe wasn't even close. Rocket raised his game in the playoffs more then anyone in his era and was an unstopable force. He has 14 more goals in 24 less games. He lead his team to at least 6 of his 10 cups. His goals per game average is 0.62 compared to Howe's 0.43. He scored 6 overtime playoff goals. Was the first person to score 50 in 50 and that record stood for 35 years until Bossy broke it in a much more offensive era.

I dont see how Howe was better and I'm sure most people here would agree.
Howe's longevity works against both player's arguments. On one hand, he had many extra years to add to his stat totals, putting him way ahead of Richard. On the other hand, his goals-per-game is lower than it should be because he played past his "prime". If you look at his first 980 games (approximately what Richard played), Howe has 496 goals. This still puts Richard ahead of him, but only by a little bit.

Howe's goals-per-game for that period is approx 0.5, while Richards is 0.56

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07-13-2005, 12:12 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Bucky
I have no particular affinity for stats, but when I use them as you were so keen on doing them above, I at least have the common sense to use them correctly.

You'll kindly refrain from telling me what I may discuss, thanks just the same.

It would also be beneficial if you'd clear out your p.m.s so you can receive them. I'd rather discuss your bizarre responses to my posts in private than embarass you in an open forum.
I made a mistake pal. What part of that dont you get? If you're mr. perfect then good for you all hail for good ol bucky

Look discuss whatever the heck you want, just dont discuss it with me. By the way since you're claiming you dont have a love for stats... funny how that's the only thing that you have when you claim Gretzky was the best player ever blah blah blah.

What's so bizzare about real facts?

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07-13-2005, 12:16 AM
  #29
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It doesn't matter who the better player was. We're talking players who transcended the game. The Rocket was the player who best fits this description. I don't think ANY player even came close to what he did in terms of transcending hockey. Richard created an entire culture in Quebec...You wouldn't see the pride in their culture than the French Canadians show today if it weren't for Richard. When the Richard Riots broke out, that was transcending hockey. How many players had such an emotional following that they actually started riots? Hell, how many people in general have been able to do that?

Besides that, Richard became an idol for an entire generation of hockey superstars, particularly French Canadian players. If it weren't for Richard, we probably would never have Mario. He was the reason every kid in Quebec wanted to play hockey and score goals. Richard transcended hockey, and to say otherwise is just ignorant.

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Old
07-13-2005, 12:17 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
I made a mistake pal. What part of that dont you get? If you're mr. perfect then good for you all hail for good ol bucky

Look discuss whatever the heck you want, just dont discuss it with me. By the way since you're claiming you dont have a love for stats... funny how that's the only thing that you have when you claim Gretzky was the best player ever blah blah blah.

What's so bizzare about real facts?

Bizarre is your inability to read a post with an opinion you don't like without thinking you're in some sort of conflict and flying off the handle. Bizarre is the way you plead for the end to the battles you start and then start more.. Bizarre is the way you repeatedly go on about the stats I post; I post very few but you seem unable to differentiate between posters..

Bizarre is your response to a post of mine asking if I've become a rap artist?? I don't recall busting any street wise rhymes to give you such indication. I'm just a little worried that you can't leave me alone. Sorry for posting this here, I tried to pm you but your box is full..


Please refrain from replying to my posts if you don't like what's in them. I'm here because I love hockey.

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07-13-2005, 12:18 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave
It doesn't matter who the better player was. We're talking players who transcended the game. The Rocket was the player who best fits this description. I don't think ANY player even came close to what he did in terms of transcending hockey. Richard created an entire culture in Quebec...You wouldn't see the pride in their culture than the French Canadians show today if it weren't for Richard. When the Richard Riots broke out, that was transcending hockey. How many players had such an emotional following that they actually started riots? Hell, how many people in general have been able to do that?

Besides that, Richard became an idol for an entire generation of hockey superstars, particularly French Canadian players. If it weren't for Richard, we probably would never have Mario. He was the reason every kid in Quebec wanted to play hockey and score goals. Richard transcended hockey, and to say otherwise is just ignorant.
Heck yeah! If it wasn't for Rocket we wouldn't have had no Pocket Rocket.. No Jean Beliveau means no Guy Lafleur which means no Mario Lemieux and plenty of other great quebecer players.

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07-13-2005, 12:26 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Bucky
Bizarre is your inability to read a post with an opinion you don't like without thinking you're in some sort of conflict and flying off the handle. Bizarre is the way you plead for the end to the battles you start and then start more.. Bizarre is the way you repeatedly go on about the stats I post; I post very few but you seem unable to differentiate between posters..

Bizarre is your response to a post of mine asking if I've become a rap artist?? I don't recall busting any street wise rhymes to give you such indication. I'm just a little worried that you can't leave me alone. Sorry for posting this here, I tried to pm you but your box is full..


Please refrain from replying to my posts if you don't like what's in them. I'm here because I love hockey.
Wanna talk about bizarre pal? What's bizarre is that you have a habit of attacking every post of mine in the hockey history forum. Yeah dont act all innocent and think you're some smart ass kid. When I was watching hockey you were in your mom's lap drinking milk. Ogopogo and you love Gretzky. I dont. If you think I'm the one who starts fighting after I read a post I dont agree with then what makes you any different then me? You quoted my post because you definately didn't agree with me because you have a hate for quebecois obviously or you just wanna disagree with everything I say. Let's end this pal seriously it's getting old. Dont bother replying to this and if you do I'm definately not gonna reply back.

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Old
07-13-2005, 12:29 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Wanna talk about bizarre pal? What's bizarre is that you have a habit of attacking every post of mine in the hockey history forum. Yeah dont act all innocent and think you're some smart ass kid. When I was watching hockey you were in your mom's lap drinking milk. Ogopogo and you love Gretzky. I dont. If you think I'm the one who starts fighting after I read a post I dont agree with then what makes you any different then me? You quoted my post because you definately didn't agree with me because you have a hate for quebecois obviously or you just wanna disagree with everything I say. Let's end this pal seriously it's getting old. Dont bother replying to this and if you do I'm definately not gonna reply back.
You're a piece of work, ace. Personal attack 101 must have been the one course you aced.

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07-13-2005, 12:53 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Heck yeah! If it wasn't for Rocket we wouldn't have had no Pocket Rocket.
Exactly what are you suggesting about Maurice's relationship with his and Henri's mother?

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07-13-2005, 01:13 AM
  #35
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I have a feeling when I wake up tomorrow morning that this thread will be locked.

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Old
07-13-2005, 01:17 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Lard_Lad
Exactly what are you suggesting about Maurice's relationship with his and Henri's mother?
Are you trying to be funny Lard or are you serious? If you're serious then I mean Maurice was the one who inspired many many quebecors as well as his brother and gave them the love of hockey. If you're trying to be funny then you forgot to put this

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07-13-2005, 01:19 AM
  #37
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Ah. In that case, I was trying to be funny.

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07-13-2005, 01:59 AM
  #38
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Getting back to the thread, I think I'd include a European somewhere in there, maybe Tretiak. Maybe Roy deserves a nod, but not before glenn Hall or Jacques Plante.

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Old
07-13-2005, 06:40 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leachmeister2000
Getting back to the thread, I think I'd include a European somewhere in there, maybe Tretiak. Maybe Roy deserves a nod, but not before glenn Hall or Jacques Plante.

Maybe Kharlamov?? I didn't see him other than in tapes, I'm sure some older posters could add to the argument pro or con..

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07-13-2005, 07:58 AM
  #40
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In no order, Orr obviously for th eway he revolutionized the game and his position.

The Rocket because he defined what I consider one of the great sports franchises, and symbolized his people in many ways. If I understand the word transcend, The Rocket is a poster child. How he compares to Howe isn't relevant, the fierce determination and refusal to be stopped on his way to the net,set him apart from any other player in history.

Gretzky, not only for the sheer weight of his numbers but for the different style of offense he brought to the game. The inside the blue line curl, the pass to where the player would arrive, the use of the trailer, no one played like him. You could argue Mario's talents, but Gretzky set the bar. This doesn't even take into account him becoming a mainstream star.

You could argue Beliveau for the way he entered the league, forcing Selke's hand financially,maybe one of the 1st players to win a negotiation.

I'd stop at the 1st 3, though Shore obviously qualifies. I'm not sure what to think about him as he influenced the game as a player and as an administrator,though in different ways.

Howe was called Mr. Hockey for a reason, and I'll never argue his place as one of the top 3 of all time, Ogo's right, his longevity tends to tarnish his greatness. I'm just not sure the game went to new levels because of him. Interesting topic though. Did Hank Aaron transcend baseball ? I know the Babe did.

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07-13-2005, 08:57 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Heck yeah! If it wasn't for Rocket we wouldn't have had no Pocket Rocket.. No Jean Beliveau means no Guy Lafleur which means no Mario Lemieux and plenty of other great quebecer players.
You don't think those players would have been great without the Rocket? I disagree. The Rocket did some amazing things during his career but, if he was never born I think we sould still have had Beliveau, Lafleur and Lemieux.

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07-13-2005, 09:36 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by crump
You never saw Orr play?

If any one player changed the game it was he...Gretzky blew away every record and was possibly the games best player ever, but before Orr he wouldn't have existed.
I saw Orr play, but outside of Boston, nobody who wasn't a hockey fan knew who he was. So he obviously didn't "transcend the sport."

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07-13-2005, 09:43 AM
  #43
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I think Messier certainly deserves a mention.

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07-13-2005, 10:36 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by moneyp
I saw Orr play, but outside of Boston, nobody who wasn't a hockey fan knew who he was. So he obviously didn't "transcend the sport."
Name me a hockey fan or someone who follows sports other then hockey that has never heard of Bobby Orr. I dont think there are many. Transcending isn't just popularity either by the way.

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07-13-2005, 12:43 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave
It doesn't matter who the better player was. We're talking players who transcended the game. The Rocket was the player who best fits this description. I don't think ANY player even came close to what he did in terms of transcending hockey.
I can think of one. Howie Morenz. When Howie died and laid in state in the Forum the entire province and city came to an absolute standstill. It was the kind of funeral reserved for heads of state and royalty in a time before hockey really hit it's Golden Age.

As for the spirit of the thread, I would say rewards aside I think I would give Roy the goaltenders spot ahead of Hasek. I don't see 2/3 (or more) of the goalies in the entire hockey world copying Hasek's "style." Yes I know Roy didn't invent the butterfly, but he certainly perfected its use in the modern game. And don't even try to put it all on his equipment. He won two Cups and put up some of his best numbers in the late 80s and early 90s with small gear in an offensive era.

Getting to the Euopeans the one that springs to mind is Peter Stastny. He was 2nd in points to Gretz in the 80s and he was the first real star player to defect from a Communist country. The courage it took for him to do that transecends the game. He was taking his life and the lives of his family and putting them in real danger in making that decision. He paved the way for others like Alex Mogilny and Petr Nedved to do the same in later years.

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07-13-2005, 12:53 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malefic74

Getting to the Euopeans the one that springs to mind is Peter Stastny. He was 2nd in points to Gretz in the 80s and he was the first real star player to defect from a Communist country. The courage it took for him to do that transecends the game. He was taking his life and the lives of his family and putting them in real danger in making that decision. He paved the way for others like Alex Mogilny and Petr Nedved to do the same in later years.
Arguements can be made for Salming in this category...probably the first player of "substance" to come to the nhl from Europe and shine. He had to put up with the "Broad Street Bully" era (and his own owner for cripes sakes) man was he tough.

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07-13-2005, 12:56 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Malefic74
I can think of one. Howie Morenz. When Howie died and laid in state in the Forum the entire province and city came to an absolute standstill. It was the kind of funeral reserved for heads of state and royalty in a time before hockey really hit it's Golden Age.

As for the spirit of the thread, I would say rewards aside I think I would give Roy the goaltenders spot ahead of Hasek. I don't see 2/3 (or more) of the goalies in the entire hockey world copying Hasek's "style." Yes I know Roy didn't invent the butterfly, but he certainly perfected its use in the modern game. And don't even try to put it all on his equipment. He won two Cups and put up some of his best numbers in the late 80s and early 90s with small gear in an offensive era.

Getting to the Euopeans the one that springs to mind is Peter Stastny. He was 2nd in points to Gretz in the 80s and he was the first real star player to defect from a Communist country. The courage it took for him to do that transecends the game. He was taking his life and the lives of his family and putting them in real danger in making that decision. He paved the way for others like Alex Mogilny and Petr Nedved to do the same in later years.
I think that is what makes Hasek so much better in my mind. Nobody copies his style because they can't. His style is raw athleticism and ability. He did not use the "crutch" of a "system" like the butterfly to dominate the league. He simply used his reflexes and abilities. That is what makes Hasek superior in my mind.

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07-13-2005, 02:35 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Name me a hockey fan or someone who follows sports other then hockey that has never heard of Bobby Orr. I dont think there are many. Transcending isn't just popularity either by the way.
That wouldn't be difficult. I know of several younger hockey fans and fans of other sports who have never heard of Bobby Orr.

"Transcend," according to my Merriam Webster's, means to rise above, surmount, exceed, surpass, etc. To have an impact beyond the boundaries of hockey. Popularity outside of (exceeding, surmounting, surpassing) the sport would be a good indicator of it. Muhammed Ali, Michael Jordan, Babe Ruth, became cultural icons. Gretzky isn't even in that category, but he brought fans to the game like nobody else. If he doesn't play in Los Angeles, the NHL doesn't explode like it did. No other player brought fans to the game in that way, not even Orr.

If you want to create a group of players who excelled in the game beyond the level of everyone else, that's a whole different question.

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07-13-2005, 02:42 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by moneyp
That wouldn't be difficult. I know of several younger hockey fans and fans of other sports who have never heard of Bobby Orr.

I don't too many people care what your grade school buddies think about this topic.

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07-13-2005, 03:42 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by crump
I don't too many people care what your grade school buddies think about this topic.
You "don't too many people?" That's nice. I'm guessing the Joyce your profile refers to isn't James. Run along and let the adults talk, okay?

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