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5 Players that Transcended the Sport

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Old
07-14-2005, 05:46 PM
  #76
waffledave
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Richard scored an overtime winning goal, in the playoffs if I'm not mistaken, while semi-concious. Tell me when anyone has ever done something like that.

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07-14-2005, 05:48 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave
Richard scored an overtime winning goal, in the playoffs if I'm not mistaken, while semi-concious. Tell me when anyone has ever done something like that.
Bobby Baun, with a broken leg, scored a cup winner I believe.

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Old
07-14-2005, 05:50 PM
  #78
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Bobby Baun did it on a broken ankle or leg or something

But really, can't you guys see what I'm saying? I'm not trying to insult Richard at all, or questioning his stature as a great player. Just trying to place him amongst the greats. Do you honestly think he was as good as Bobby Orr?

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07-14-2005, 05:51 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave
Richard scored an overtime winning goal, in the playoffs if I'm not mistaken, while semi-concious. Tell me when anyone has ever done something like that.
Richard is the greatest player ever, probably in the top ten of the best players ever.

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Old
07-14-2005, 05:55 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruins4Ever
Patrick Roy - Created the butterfly style of goalie.
Actually he didn't. He perfected and popularized the style, but was not the orginator. Tony Esposito, for one, played a modified butterfly style before Roy.

I still remember coaches telling me as a kid, well before Roy played a pro hockey game, that they couldn't understand how I could make that 'stupid butterfly style' work. Screwed up my knees though.

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07-14-2005, 05:56 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosbyfan
Richard is the greatest player ever, probably in the top ten of the best players ever.
I think you forgot a word or two

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Old
07-14-2005, 06:00 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez
I think you forgot a word or two
Nope

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Old
07-14-2005, 06:02 PM
  #83
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So he's the best ever, AND in the top 10 of the best ever?

isn't that a bit redundant?

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07-14-2005, 06:03 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Yeah Harvey was 80-100 assists per season type of defenseman like Orr eh? Harvey was a defensive defenseman which is the complete opposite of Orr.
Harvey was the most complete defenceman ever, although Orr was better overall.

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07-14-2005, 06:06 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Yeah Harvey was 80-100 assists per season type of defenseman like Orr eh? Harvey was a defensive defenseman which is the complete opposite of Orr.
Harvey was a defensive defenseman? Did your dad in L.A. tell you that?

Harvey was the second-highest scoring defenseman of the fifties, behind Red Kelly. He quarterbacked the fabled Canadien power play, so potent that they made the rule where power plays on minor penalties ended on a goal (previously, they ran the full two minutes.)

Defensive defenseman? Oy.

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07-14-2005, 06:12 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez
So he's the best ever, AND in the top 10 of the best ever?

isn't that a bit redundant?
Greatest ever! Howe, Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Beliveau and Harvey were better. Hull, Mikita, Esposito and Bourque were close.

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Old
07-14-2005, 06:13 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosbyfan
Greatest ever! Howe, Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Beliveau and Harvey were better. Hull, Mikita, Esposito and Bourque were close.
yes, that's what I thought you meant. but re-read your original post and you'll see that you left the word "not" out of "Richard is not the best ever", which caused all this confusion on my part

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Old
07-14-2005, 06:19 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosbyfan
Richard is the greatest player ever, probably in the top ten of the best players ever.
This is what I wrote! Read the bold carefully. "best" is not in that part.

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Old
07-14-2005, 06:25 PM
  #89
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ah, how cryptic of you, lol

fair enough

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07-14-2005, 06:29 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Yeah next thing I know you'll be comparing Rocket to Wendel Clark. Rocket was the man of the 40-s and 50-s. He was the best goal scorer of the first 50 years of nhl hockey. He was the best player of the best team for years. He lead his team to a lot of stanley cups. He didn't care about tallying stupid points at the end of an already decided game like Gretzky used to. He didn't care about stats. He cared about the team. He was a leader. He was an Icon. He wasn't called the Rocket for nothing. Yeah Esposito has a better goals per game average. Who gives a dam considering the era both men played in? Oh and Rocket didn't have a Bobby Orr making tape to tape passes to his stick. Rocket is in my and so many people's hearts one of the top 5 best players ever period. But hey you're a leaf fan so I wouldn't expect that.

Made it all the way to the last sentence before personally insulting the other poster. Congratulations!!

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Old
07-14-2005, 06:57 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosbyfan
Richard is the greatest player ever, probably in the top ten of the best players ever.
Greatest? How so?

Explain how he is greater than Howe, Gretzky and Orr. After those three you could debate.

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07-14-2005, 07:05 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moneyp
Harvey was a defensive defenseman? Did your dad in L.A. tell you that?

Harvey was the second-highest scoring defenseman of the fifties, behind Red Kelly. He quarterbacked the fabled Canadien power play, so potent that they made the rule where power plays on minor penalties ended on a goal (previously, they ran the full two minutes.)

Defensive defenseman? Oy.
Yeah Harvey was a great defenseman no doubt but best offensive defenseman? I dont think so. His highest assist mark is 44. He was so close to Orr eh?

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07-14-2005, 07:12 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Yeah Harvey was a great defenseman no doubt but best offensive defenseman? I dont think so. His highest assist mark is 44. He was so close to Orr eh?
LOL.

Harvey finished 2nd in the NHL in assists once, 5th once and 7th twice. The NHL was much more defensive during Harvey's era than it was during Orr's era so the 44 assist number is quite misleading. Harvey was very good offensively.

4 top 7 finishes in assists is something few forwards have even done. Harvey is tied for #62 on my all time assist list.

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07-14-2005, 07:37 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
LOL.

Harvey finished 2nd in the NHL in assists once, 5th once and 7th twice. The NHL was much more defensive during Harvey's era than it was during Orr's era so the 44 assist number is quite misleading. Harvey was very good offensively.

4 top 7 finishes in assists is something few forwards have even done. Harvey is tied for #62 on my all time assist list.
Yeah and where is Orr? I bet he's in the top 10.

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07-14-2005, 08:02 PM
  #95
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IMO Zopust wins this discussion by TKO with his inclusion of Bure and Roy, and his whole post as a matter of fact.

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Old
07-14-2005, 08:54 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Yeah and where is Orr? I bet he's in the top 10.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looked to me as if he was just disproving your dismissal of Harvey as a "defensive defenceman" which seemed to imply that Richard had to do it all alone. I think you're fighting an imaginary argument if you think anyone's even remotely suggesting that Harvey was on Orr's level offensively. It's just that he was a decent offensive force in his day. No need to switch battles mid-stream

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Old
07-14-2005, 09:30 PM
  #97
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The Rocket didnt have Harvey for basically half his career; his 50 in 50 were without Harvey.

Talentwise Mario is tops along with Orr and Lafleur; but gee if anyone's popularity went well beyond hockey it was the Rocket.

And the Rocket would have destroyed some of the skinny whiny free skaters who piled up points in a weak era/division (#99, Savard).

Ask yourself this. Who would you take if you needed a goal to save your life.

#9 Le Fusil, Rocket Richard

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Old
07-14-2005, 09:33 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malefic74
Sure that's the case NOW, but in the 80s in Wayne's prime Ogo is right. Even casual fans knew about Gretzky. Even hardcore NFL or MLB lovers who subscribed to Sports Illustrated got more than a couple of covers with him on it; he hosted Saturday Night Live (and poorly), and was even mentioned in a couple of episodes of Cheers when the Bruins were playing the Oilers for the Cup. For crying out loud he had a cartoon with Michael Jordan and Bo Jackson on Saturday morning. And Senna is a BIG stretch in that list. The US has had NASCAR and Indy racing in its prime during his time. Casual sports fans were more likely to mention A.J. Foyt or Mario Andretti before they got to an F1 driver. That's probably true of a lot of Canadian fans to (lest someone accuse me of picking on our American brethren).

Hey if you don't like Gretzky that's fine. But to suggest that no American sports fans in the 80s knew anything at all about Wayne is generalizing at best and outright ignorant at worst. I am by no means Wayne's biggest fan, but your opinions would get a lot more respect if you at least attempted SOME objectivity.
I said 99 is the 2nd best offensive player of his generation. Isnt that enuf? Youre right he was heavily promoted by IMG in the 80's and got that shot at SNL. Most hockey fans disliked him, however.

re Senna, he belongs with Ali, Woods, Pele, Jordan, Ruth. We're talking worldwide, not just USA.

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07-14-2005, 10:08 PM
  #99
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Another 'legend' that made for a great story. Baun 'technically' had a broken leg but it was a small crack in a small bone. Leaf players smile when they are reminded of all the mileage that Bobby Baun got from such a small crack.

Baun did play in game 7 of the 1964 finals but he wasn't the most injured Leaf player in that game. Red Kelly was so badly injured that the doctors had to stick huge needles into Kelly's leg to freeze the injured knee. Apparently, the site of the Kelly on the table with the needles was too much for his teammates to even look at. After the Cup victory, Kelly was in so much pain that he passed out in the shower and Tim Horton had to pick him up and then Kelly was taken to the hospital without celebrating the Stanley Cup victory. Kelly was the most heroic player in that series. The players themselves have different interpretations of events than what most fans are led to believe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Joe
Bobby Baun, with a broken leg, scored a cup winner I believe.

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07-14-2005, 10:10 PM
  #100
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Actually, Tony Esposito didn't perfect the butterfly, Glenn Hall in the 50's may have been the first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Joe
Actually he didn't. He perfected and popularized the style, but was not the orginator. Tony Esposito, for one, played a modified butterfly style before Roy.

I still remember coaches telling me as a kid, well before Roy played a pro hockey game, that they couldn't understand how I could make that 'stupid butterfly style' work. Screwed up my knees though.

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