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The Armchair GM Thread - LII

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Old
10-04-2013, 12:02 PM
  #151
y2kcanucks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
The production of the 2nd line will come down to an option stabilizing the right side. Either Hansen is stapled there full time, Kassian takes a step, Dalpe is moved there, or another prospect is tried. Still want the team to look at acquiring LeBlanc. Point being, the solution is unlikely to be coming in the form of an established 2nd line RW, they will have to grow it.

Not reading too much into the last game. Depth could be an issue, but plenty of teams are looking for internal growth. SJ had already gotten this with Couture, largely. VAN just needs a young player to step up.

Edit: Was not a fan of picking up Vanek before, and now with his urge to go to MIN and with Pomminville signing there, no interested at all now. He's headed to FA. Cammalleri might work but difficult to trade with CGY. Just got to hope some prospect steps up, or take a dump salary like Gionta or Heatley at half salary.
This is the problem I have with this organization. We've seen it in past years where the team doesn't really have an identity on the ice, and now we're seeing it with how this club doesn't have a clue which direction it's going in. Is it a youth movement? Or are we still clinging to the idea that our window is open?

If it's a youth movement then not giving our jr kids or Corrado a roster spot, even for 9 games for the jr kids was a mistake. If we are clinging to the (false) hope that our window is still open then we need to do a hell of a lot more than just hope one of the kids we do have can step it up, especially since they haven't shown that they're capable.

Right now this team looks lost. The organization doesn't know what direction it's going in and we're seeing the results. Gillis has to make a decision. Either acquire some talented youth, or load up.

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10-04-2013, 12:09 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
The difference between us and the Flames is we actually have good players and have had good success. The flames were never top level teams like we've been.

San Jose is a tough matchup, I'll reserve my judgement on re-building after 10-20 games.

edit* guess I should have read further, I like Stringer Bell's comments too.
Thats right.

How many Presidents trophies did the 2004 Flames win ? Not a single one.

Anyone who makes that comparison should be suspended. It makes people ill.

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10-04-2013, 12:14 PM
  #153
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It's both. It's keeping one eye on the present, and providing them with just enough to compete, while building the organizational depth to get a push from the pipeline. Longevity requires both. It's actually not that different from what SJ did by growing Couture in house.

I'm just gonna be happy when it starts to sink in that VAN won't be going all in for a high priced rental. Everything Gillis has done to this point has been tempered by his avoidance to destroy his pipeline completely. He knows it's weak. He knows he has to build it up. Yet, he's going to do a multi-futures deal for a rental? Highly unlikely. It will **** people off that he doesn't, but I support his reluctance to significantly degrade his already weak pipeline.

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10-04-2013, 12:14 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Cammalleri might work but difficult to trade with CGY. Just got to hope some prospect steps up, or take a dump salary like Gionta or Heatley at half salary.
We don't want anything to do with Cammalleri. He is a cancer to every team he goes. First he couldn't get out of LA fast enough, then he went to the Flames and didn't do much. Then he went to the Habs where he got into some spat and got traded in the middle of a game. Now he is wandering in the Calgary black hole. He should have stayed with LA.

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10-04-2013, 12:18 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post

Right now this team looks lost. The organization doesn't know what direction it's going in and we're seeing the results. Gillis has to make a decision. Either acquire some talented youth, or load up.
I don't disagree that they look a bit out of sorts, but I think the organization has a clear direction IMO.

We ALL knew this would be a tough season. It's not about a window being open or shut, it's about doing the best job to always have a chance to compete.

This year will be tough, especially after how spoiled we've been over the last 6-8 years.

I definitely don't think they need to load up, just as I didn't think they were a Derek Roy away last year, and we're definitely not a Thomas Vanek away this year (and we'd most assuredly only get him as a rental).

Stay the course, let the young kids season, make the playoffs and see where it goes from there.

2014-2015 is set up to allow the Canucks to do big things IMO with the flexibility they have.

Wouldn't be shocked to see the Twins back, a couple solid top 9 UFA's and a big splash on the RFA market.

Either way, I'm not as doomy and gloomy as some, probably because I've already set my expectations to a reasonable level. THis isn't a cup or bust team anymore.

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10-04-2013, 12:21 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Goldrunner View Post
We don't want anything to do with Cammalleri. He is a cancer to every team he goes. First he couldn't get out of LA fast enough, then he went to the Flames and didn't do much. Then he went to the Habs where he got into some spat and got traded in the middle of a game. Now he is wandering in the Calgary black hole. He should have stayed with LA.
Not really advocating it. I don't think the Canucks will go the way of securing yet another high priced player. Some do, some hope, but I don't think it happens. No, moves like the Dalpe one indicate to me how Gillis is trying to go about it. He's trying to grow that next player. Be it Schroeder, Kassian, Dalpe or whomever else they decided to bring in (LeBlanc for instance). Camalleri just becomes a closer ideal to the high priced rental thats not totally absurd to this point, I.e. Vanek. A player they can acquire for a short time to help. Saying that, I don't advocate rentals so meh.

Got to grow that next player. That's the only way IMO.

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10-04-2013, 12:27 PM
  #157
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As of right now the best thing this organization could do is trade Kesler and Burrows, if we're out of it by Christmas, for some youth. Start the process and get rid of plugs like Weise!

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10-04-2013, 12:32 PM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
It's both. It's keeping one eye on the present, and providing them with just enough to compete, while building the organizational depth to get a push from the pipeline. Longevity requires both. It's actually not that different from what SJ did by growing Couture in house.

I'm just gonna be happy when it starts to sink in that VAN won't be going all in for a high priced rental. Everything Gillis has done to this point has been tempered by his avoidance to destroy his pipeline completely. He knows it's weak. He knows he has to build it up. Yet, he's going to do a multi-futures deal for a rental? Highly unlikely. It will **** people off that he doesn't, but I support his reluctance to significantly degrade his already weak pipeline.
Just how weak is our pipeline when we have Kassian, Tanev, Schroeder, Jensen, Gaunce, Horvat, Shinkaruk, Corrado; as well as projects like Dalpe, Tommernes, Subban, Blomstrand, Mallet, etc.

How good does our prospect pool have to be before it becomes acceptable to trade some futures to help improve our chances in the short-to-medium term?

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10-04-2013, 12:34 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Falconator View Post
As of right now the best thing this organization could do is trade Kesler and Burrows, if we're out of it by Christmas, for some youth. Start the process and get rid of plugs like Weise!
If they trade Kesler and Burrows, they might as well trade the Sedins and blow the entire thing up. The best thing to do, IMO, is to wait and see how things go. One game isn't necessarily indicative of how things will be 20 or 40 games from now.

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10-04-2013, 12:35 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Just how weak is our pipeline when we have Kassian, Tanev, Schroeder, Jensen, Gaunce, Horvat, Shinkaruk, Corrado; as well as projects like Dalpe, Tommernes, Subban, Blomstrand, Mallet, etc.

How good does our prospect pool have to be before it becomes acceptable to trade some futures to help improve our chances in the short-to-medium term?
Better than that, especially if it's for another rental. I'm not taking my chances on a rental. You would have to find a significant top 6 upgrade under contract for at least two seasons to want to move a 1st + Jensen (for example) for.

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10-04-2013, 12:39 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Betamax View Post
If they trade Kesler and Burrows, they might as well trade the Sedins and blow the entire thing up. The best thing to do, IMO, is to wait and see how things go. One game isn't necessarily indicative of how things will be 20 or 40 games from now.
I'd like to see the Sedins finish their careers in Vancouver, I think they feel the same as well. If they're in the line-up the team will always be somewhat competitive even if it's full of young forwards.

Kesler and Burrows would bring some good young players in. I'm thinking long term. Also, I don't need 20 to 40 games to see the team has four top six forwards and a bunch of fringe top sixers like Hansen and Higgins playing out of their skill level.

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10-04-2013, 12:39 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Just how weak is our pipeline when we have Kassian, Tanev, Schroeder, Jensen, Gaunce, Horvat, Shinkaruk, Corrado; as well as projects like Dalpe, Tommernes, Subban, Blomstrand, Mallet, etc.

How good does our prospect pool have to be before it becomes acceptable to trade some futures to help improve our chances in the short-to-medium term?

Good enough that we start seeing real impact from the young players. That hasn't happened yet, especially at forward.

I think they need 1 or 2 more guys like Dalpe, allow all the young options to compete and see what they have after that, before they even think of stripping the pipeline to get a short term option. As arsmaster says, this team isn't a Vanek away from being a legit cup contender. I agree with that mindset.

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10-04-2013, 12:39 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Better than that, especially if it's for another rental. I'm not taking my chances on a rental. You would have to find a significant top 6 upgrade under contract for at least two seasons to want to move a 1st + Jensen (for example) for.
I'm not in favour of acquiring someone for just one season. If Gillis has inquired on Vanek and it's been made clear that even if the Canucks trade for him he wouldn't be willing to re-sign here, then I wouldn't want us to trade for him. but just because a player is on the last year of their contract doesn't mean we can't re-sign them.

I'm sure people are still wary because of the Roy trade, but I think that was a great trade, if only we had been willing to re-sign him.

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10-04-2013, 12:41 PM
  #164
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gillis has done a crappy job of drafting so instead of filling the roster with some cheaper talent he'd filling it with a)players who aren't suited for a 3rd line role b) scraps that other teams don't even want

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10-04-2013, 12:45 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Good enough that we start seeing real impact from the young players. That hasn't happened yet, especially at forward.

I think they need 1 or 2 more guys like Dalpe, allow all the young options to compete and see what they have after that, before they even think of stripping the pipeline to get a short term option. As arsmaster says, this team isn't a Vanek away from being a legit cup contender. I agree with that mindset.
I guess I don't see moving just one prospect + pick as "stripping" the pipeline. I'm not saying we should trade everyone, but if we could get someone like Vanek or whoever and re-sign them for another 5 years or so, they will provide a lot more value to us than could reasonably be expected, from say, Jensen + a mid-late 1st.

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10-04-2013, 12:46 PM
  #166
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I'm not in favour of acquiring someone for just one season. If Gillis has inquired on Vanek and it's been made clear that even if the Canucks trade for him he wouldn't be willing to re-sign here, then I wouldn't want us to trade for him. but just because a player is on the last year of their contract doesn't mean we can't re-sign them.

I'm sure people are still wary because of the Roy trade, but I think that was a great trade, if only we had been willing to re-sign him.
Roy just wasn't the right player for this team. He didn't fit, nor did his attributes fit with what they are trying to transition into.

It wasn't a bad deal value wise, just not a great personnel choice. I don't forsee being able to afford Vanek moving forward, especially when we see what Kessel just got.

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10-04-2013, 12:51 PM
  #167
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We don't want anything to do with Cammalleri. He is a cancer to every team he goes. First he couldn't get out of LA fast enough, then he went to the Flames and didn't do much. Then he went to the Habs where he got into some spat and got traded in the middle of a game. Now he is wandering in the Calgary black hole. He should have stayed with LA.
This is ********. He was low-balled by LA and apparently he and Lombardi had a falling out. In Montreal, he simply said, "If you play like losers, you'll lose" in reference to how awful the team was performing. He clearly intended to imply the team - himself included - needed to play better, but the media blew it way out of proportion as they are prone to do. Gauthier panicked because he was a horrendous GM and traded Cammalleri in the middle of a game to avoid yet another media spectacle, which had become the trend for that season.

He was a team player, the guys had nothing but compliments for him and to this day say the same. Iginla has also been quite vocal about their time together as linemates. Cammalleri is not a cancer whatsoever. He's competitive. Frankly, we could use that.

He'll give us 30+ goals and has a playoff resume that makes more than half our roster blush. Why wouldn't we want that?

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10-04-2013, 12:51 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I'm not in favour of acquiring someone for just one season. If Gillis has inquired on Vanek and it's been made clear that even if the Canucks trade for him he wouldn't be willing to re-sign here, then I wouldn't want us to trade for him. but just because a player is on the last year of their contract doesn't mean we can't re-sign them.

I'm sure people are still wary because of the Roy trade, but I think that was a great trade, if only we had been willing to re-sign him.
But we didn't re-sign him and that's the point. Futures lost for next to nothing.

Vanek has no incentive to make things clear before the offseason. He can be traded for without committing to the destination team. Some will care and some won't, but VAN absolutely has to care and the price will be adjusted accordingly.

This team needs to stay far away from rentals IMO, and until Vanek says he will put pen to paper right after being traded, which I doubt he does, it makes no sense.

Edit: I know you have become attached to the idea of Vanek, so I don't expect you do get this, but there's little reason to suggest Gillis will do this. You may want it to happen, but that is different than supposing Gillis will do something like this.


Last edited by Bleach Clean: 10-04-2013 at 12:57 PM.
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10-04-2013, 12:55 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Roy just wasn't the right player for this team. He didn't fit, nor did his attributes fit with what they are trying to transition into.

It wasn't a bad deal value wise, just not a great personnel choice. I don't forsee being able to afford Vanek moving forward, especially when we see what Kessel just got.
It's still really premature, but looking I've heard some people speculate about a 70m salary cap, so something like this

Quote:
CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Daniel Sedin ($6.100m) / Henrik Sedin ($6.100m) / Alexandre Burrows ($4.500m)
Thomas Vanek ($7.500m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m) / Zack Kassian ($1.500m)
Chris Higgins ($2.500m) / Jordan Schroeder ($1.500m) / Jannik Hansen ($2.500m)
Brad Richardson ($1.150m) / Brendan Gaunce ($1.057m) / Dale Weise ($0.788m)
Tom Sestito ($0.750m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Alexander Edler ($5.000m) / Kevin Bieksa ($4.600m)
Jason Garrison ($4.600m) / Dan Hamhuis ($4.500m)
Frank Corrado ($0.599m) / Chris Tanev ($2.000m)
Ryan Stanton ($0.550m) / Mike Kostka ($0.625m)
GOALTENDERS
Roberto Luongo ($5.333m)
Eddie Lack ($1.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $69,751,944; BONUSES: $170,833
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $618,889
Might work. Still very early though. A lot depends on what the Sedins re-sign for, whether or not Kassian/Schroeder are deserving of raises, etc. But it might be do-able.

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10-04-2013, 01:00 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
But we didn't re-sign him and that's the point. Futures lost for next to nothing.

Vanek has no incentive to make things clear before the offseason. He can be traded for without committing to the destination team. Some will care and some won't, but VAN absolutely has to care and the price will be adjusted accordingly.

This team needs to stay far away from rentals IMO, and until Vanek says he will put pen to paper right after being traded, which I doubt he does, it makes no sense.

Edit: I know you have become attached to the idea of Vanek, so I don't expect you do get this, but there's little reason to suggest Gillis will do this. You may want it to happen, but that is different than supposing Gillis will do something like this.
We didn't re-sign him because we didn't try. I have no problem with acquiring players on the last year of their contract, as long as Gillis is fairly confident about re-signing them.(and I'm fairly sure Gillis would be a lot more willing to re-sign Vanek than Roy)

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10-04-2013, 01:02 PM
  #171
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I am still somewhat hesitate to trade for Vanek. They will want more than Jensen +1st and Schroeder is unlikely to sate them. That leaves Gaunce, Corrado or Tanev has potential pieces, all of whom I prefer to hang on to.

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10-04-2013, 01:05 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
I am still somewhat hesitate to trade for Vanek. They will want more than Jensen +1st and Schroeder is unlikely to sate them. That leaves Gaunce, Corrado or Tanev has potential pieces, all of whom I prefer to hang on to.
I don't know. In prior trade talks with Buffalo fans something along the lines of Jensen/Gaunce + 1st + Booth for Vanek @ 50% seems to have had traction. I wouldn't be willing to add much more than that.

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10-04-2013, 01:06 PM
  #173
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If we were smart, we would follow the blueprint followed by the team that has owned us for the past 18 months, the Sharks. From 2009-onwards, Doug Wilson identified a need to proceed with a youth movement, while simultaneously recognizing they had a good enough team to mount legitimate chases at the Cup every year. He shed the leaden contracts of guys like Cheechoo, Grier, Setoguchi, Murray, Clowe and Nabokov, and parlayed those assets into guys like Burns, Heatley (who was still good when acquired), Niemi, Torres, high-round draft picks, and roster spots for developed picks like Irwin, Demers, Wingels, and now Hertl. They have never purposefully shed assets to rebuild, yet they have never hung on to aging and declining assets en masse into their twilight. It has allowed them to remain at worst, competitive (2008-10, 2012), and at best, a legitimate force (2011, 2013). And they now look to be rounding back into the form of Cup favorites. Doug Wilson has done one hell of a job there.

The equivalent, for us, would be, in a few years, shedding deadweight assets with albatross contracts like Booth (if he's not already gone by then), Bieksa, Higgins, while they still have a modicum of value, to free up spots for the push from within (Horvat, Shinkaruk, Corrado, etc.). A solution right now would be to move one of the top-4 defensemen (Bieksa or Garrison being preferable) and maybe a half-decent prospect (Jensen, who still has value but has yet to impress at a professional level) for a young but legitimate top-6 winger (see Setoguchi and Coyle for Burns trade as a template). That's all this team needs, and has ever needed, to stay in the upper echelon: a consistent 25+ goal threat to play on Kesler's wing.

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10-04-2013, 01:08 PM
  #174
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I don't know. In prior trade talks with Buffalo fans something along the lines of Jensen/Gaunce + 1st + Booth for Vanek @ 50% seems to have had traction. I wouldn't be willing to add much more than that.
If that were indeed the asking price. I suspect other teams would match us, but I'd do it.

Edit: I completely forgot about Kassian. We're okay forward wise even with trading booth.

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10-04-2013, 01:09 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
We didn't re-sign him because we didn't try. I have no problem with acquiring players on the last year of their contract, as long as Gillis is fairly confident about re-signing them.(and I'm fairly sure Gillis would be a lot more willing to re-sign Vanek than Roy)

I don't care if Gillis is confident in being able to re-sign said player. Lot of supposition in your post as well, about what Gillis is willing to do. You cannot be fairly sure of anything. I'm basing Gillis's reluctance on acquiring Vanek based on what he said about youth, and from his recent Dalpe trade. Also, his comment about not liking rentals, and based on what he did with Roy in the end. What are you basing your assertion of his potential interest in Vanek on? Nothing, but what you want.

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