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Government "Slimdown" / Obamacare ******** Thread Part II

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10-03-2013, 09:21 AM
  #101
Ilkka Sinisalo
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Originally Posted by Ugmo View Post
I would be extremely surprised if this went down as described in the extreme right-wing zealot link you just posted.

On the contrary, the video actually seems to show a Teabagger harrassing peaceful protesters ("Where's your federal ID? I bet you work at McDonalds!").

I will reconsider my stance if you find corroboration from a non ass hole site.
lol, powerlineblog. It's amazing how often this supposed "anarchist" trots out these manufactured Republican red herrings. It's almost like he's not at all the independent mind that he likes to pretend he is!

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10-03-2013, 09:21 AM
  #102
Lethargic
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I doubt Preds votes in the primaries for Teabag candidates. He seems more like an establishment Republican to me.
He is a Rove republican.

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10-03-2013, 09:25 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
my whole point is you people act like nothing like this has ever happend before... but the truth is in divided government it happens all the time, the difference is in the past, the majority party has respected the fact that the minority has some power and some right to negotiate... its absolutely a ridiculous argument to try to make the case that "we won you lost so you get nothing" and to claim that the Republicans should just roll over and take it
Yeah and when Democrats trounced the Republicans in the 2006 elections they didn't use their control of the purse strings to hold the government hostage in an attempt to force Bush to undo the most important accomplishments of his presidency.

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10-03-2013, 09:26 AM
  #104
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I doubt Preds votes in the primaries for Teabag candidates. He seems more like an establishment Republican to me.
true.

but again, what is completely lost in all of this is the realization that in divided government there is NEGOTIATION that requires both sides to participate... and frequently the minority has to be the one to take the hard line in order to force the majority to come to the table..

for those of you saying that the Republican "wish list" is preposterous, think about the recent NHL CBA talks... remember how outlandish the owners original proposal was??

You will see things in a different light if you accept that the Republican demands arent all or none they are a starting point for negotiations..

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10-03-2013, 09:28 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
true.

but again, what is completely lost in all of this is the realization that in divided government there is NEGOTIATION that requires both sides to participate... and frequently the minority has to be the one to take the hard line in order to force the majority to come to the table..

for those of you saying that the Republican "wish list" is preposterous, think about the recent NHL CBA talks... remember how outlandish the owners original proposal was??

You will see things in a different light if you accept that the Republican demands arent all or none they are a starting point for negotiations..
The time for hardline negotiations on the ACA was back in 2010.

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10-03-2013, 09:28 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
Yeah and when Democrats trounced the Republicans in the 2006 elections they didn't use their control of the purse strings to hold the government hostage in an attempt to force Bush to undo the most important accomplishments of his presidency.
but they could have, and it would have been perfectly acceptable... thats how our government is designed to work.

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10-03-2013, 09:29 AM
  #107
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10-03-2013, 09:30 AM
  #108
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Can you recognize the issue of gerrymandering though?
you dont get a net change of 63 seats through gerrymandering... that is a clear indication of public opinion

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10-03-2013, 09:31 AM
  #109
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the nerve of this guy...

http://gawker.com/gop-congressman-ma...dow-1440577868

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10-03-2013, 09:34 AM
  #110
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The time for hardline negotiations on the ACA was back in 2010.
I agree but part of the problem was the way the law was set up with delayed implementation... what should have happened was the law should have taken effect shortly after it was passed and then the people could judge for themselves and vote accordingly.. but Obama knew it was going to be a political drag and timed the implementation after his re-election..

now, again, for my part I say dont stand in the way of the ACA... by all means let it start and let the public judge... I think the supporters of the "defund" movement are stupid

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10-03-2013, 09:36 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
now, again, for my part I say dont stand in the way of the ACA... by all means let it start and let the public judge... I think the supporters of the "defund" movement are stupid
Quote:
Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
but again, what is completely lost in all of this is the realization that in divided government there is NEGOTIATION that requires both sides to participate... and frequently the minority has to be the one to take the hard line in order to force the majority to come to the table..
So what are we negotiating at this point?

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10-03-2013, 09:37 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
but they could have, and it would have been perfectly acceptable... thats how our government is designed to work.
It is not. But, of course, you're assuming the religion that there was some singular intentional "design" for the government, and that James Madison on factionalism is somehow the Grand Deity to which we must all bow while we are driven mercilessly to our ruin.

What's amazing is that constitutional fundamentalists, the myopic fools, are asking for is a HUGE appropriation of Executive Power. That's where this is going. Watch it. The GOP is daring President Obama to find an alternative solution to the debt limit crisis. That's Obama's leverage in this situation.

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10-03-2013, 09:40 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
I agree but part of the problem was the way the law was set up with delayed implementation... what should have happened was the law should have taken effect shortly after it was passed and then the people could judge for themselves and vote accordingly.. but Obama knew it was going to be a political drag and timed the implementation after his re-election..

now, again, for my part I say dont stand in the way of the ACA... by all means let it start and let the public judge... I think the supporters of the "defund" movement are stupid
Building and coordinating healthcare marketplaces in 50 states, all of which need to go through their own glacial political processes, is not something that could possibly take effect shortly after it was passed. It's been 3 years and these markets are still showing implementation issues.

Was it purposely timed to be after the election? That was definitely a nice plus. But it doesn't seem like there was much anyone could've done to implement it faster. And even with its slow implementation, it's still been the central political issue since it passed. The public has already judged: they want to see the ACA in full action.

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10-03-2013, 09:41 AM
  #114
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but they could have, and it would have been perfectly acceptable... thats how our government is designed to work.
No it's not. This has literally never happened in over 200 years of American politics.

I assume you are a Reagan fan. The Democrats controlled the House all during his presidency and took the Senate in 1986, in the wake of the Iran-Contra scandal. If they had said "we will not pass any legislation to raise the debt ceiling or fund the government unless you scuttle the SDI program and reinstate higher taxes on the rich," that would have been cool with you?

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10-03-2013, 09:42 AM
  #115
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So what are we negotiating at this point?
I think the republicans would have easily settled for a delayed implementation, but now that its already being implemented I cant say for sure what they would take now...

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10-03-2013, 09:43 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Sevanston View Post
Building and coordinating healthcare marketplaces in 50 states, all of which need to go through their own glacial political processes, is not something that could possibly take effect shortly after it was passed. It's been 3 years and these markets are still showing implementation issues.

Was it purposely timed to be after the election? That was definitely a nice plus. But it doesn't seem like there was much anyone could've done to implement it faster. And even with its slow implementation, it's still been the central political issue since it passed. The public has already judged: they want to see the ACA in full action.
And people are surprised and mad that when certain elected officials who ran on the "defund / repeal Obamacare" are actually trying to do that. It's odd for a politician to do what he said he would do.

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10-03-2013, 09:44 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Metro Misfits View Post
And people are surprised and mad that when certain elected officials who ran on the "defund / repeal Obamacare" are actually trying to do that. It's odd for a politician to do what he said he would do.
We were mad when they ran on that platform (but we weren't surprised). Are we supposed to be not mad now that they're implementing it and pushing the country toward the cliff?

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10-03-2013, 09:45 AM
  #118
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And people are surprised and mad that when certain elected officials who ran on the "defund / repeal Obamacare" are actually trying to do that. It's odd for a politician to do what he said he would do.
Then he/she shouldn't complain when rightly accused for using destructive tactics in order to achieve a narrow ideological agenda.

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10-03-2013, 09:47 AM
  #119
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And people are surprised and mad that when certain elected officials who ran on the "defund / repeal Obamacare" are actually trying to do that. It's odd for a politician to do what he said he would do.
The odd part isn't that they're trying to do what they said, it's that they're taking it this far.

I doubt many of their constituents voted these politicians into office on a "defund Obamacare or else shutdown the federal government" platform.

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10-03-2013, 09:47 AM
  #120
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You cannot negotiate with religious extremists and fundamentalists. Period, end of story. When you think what you're doing has divine backing (and that's what these nutbars think), it's not possible to negotiate away from that position.

Barry Goldwater tried to warn the GOP that EXACTLY this was going to happen if they continued to give them power and "motivate" them as a base.

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10-03-2013, 09:47 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
I think the republicans would have easily settled for a delayed implementation, but now that its already being implemented I cant say for sure what they would take now...
Yeah, you're starting to sound like Marlin Stutzman...and this isn't "negotiating"...

Quote:
“We’re not going to be disrespected...We have to get something out of this. And I don’t know what that even is.”

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10-03-2013, 09:48 AM
  #122
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I think the republicans would have easily settled for a delayed implementation, but now that its already being implemented I cant say for sure what they would take now...
So, now they're basically down to a temper tantrum because they didn't get their way. Wonderful party you vote for.

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10-03-2013, 09:48 AM
  #123
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That guy is a loon. Pretty much all of west Texas is useless and produces nothing but redneck Christian fundamentalists who are way too into high school football.

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10-03-2013, 09:50 AM
  #124
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No it's not. This has literally never happened in over 200 years of American politics.

I assume you are a Reagan fan. The Democrats controlled the House all during his presidency and took the Senate in 1986, in the wake of the Iran-Contra scandal. If they had said "we will not pass any legislation to raise the debt ceiling or fund the government unless you scuttle the SDI program and reinstate higher taxes on the rich," that would have been cool with you?
I would have understood that it was a starting point for negotiation. As is the current list of republican demands. They arent idiots... they know they cant get everything on their list, but they cant just give up and say "kk, you win, we will sit quietly now". Those of you who are acting like this is something new have obviously never participated in a negotiation between unfriendly parties.

The problem, as I see it, is that Obama and the democrats perceive that the Republicans are the only ones who will sustain political damage from this, which is why they arent negotiating.

If they are correct, the Boehner better fold his tent and realize that the best he can do is to make as many democrats as possible go on record supporting the ACA and then remind everyone of that in 2014. (this is the way I see it and why I hope Boehner can end this soon)...

but if thats not the case and the public blames both sides, then there is some impetus for the democrats to give a little so they can both claim victory and move on

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10-03-2013, 09:52 AM
  #125
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the problem, as i see it, is that obama and the democrats perceive that the republicans are the only ones who will sustain political damage from this, which is why they arent negotiating.
Aren't negotiating what?!!

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