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Raise the Jolly Rogers: The Off-Season

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Old
12-05-2013, 11:05 AM
  #976
87and71
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I'd love to see us land Price, for the right, well, price. We have, at this point in time, arguably the most talented and deepest minor league system in the bigs. We are loaded with pitching and OF depth, and well to do behind the plate as well.

If i'm Huntington, i'm giving James Loney a 3 year, 25M deal and plugging him in as the everyday starter at 1B vs RH. Given his production last season and projections at PNC park, it's a very good value IMHO.

I'd then take a swing on Price who doesn't hit FA until after 2015. Offer up Taillon, Bell, Holmes and Mattisen. Deal from position of strengths. While losing Taillon hurts we saw the emergence of Tyler Glasnow and Nick Kingham make him slightly more movable. Glasnow is slightly further along than Taillon was and had a more dominant low A season. Obviously we'll see what high A and AA bring for TG, but i put him right on the heels of JT as far as pitching prospects going into 2014.

Kingham projects as a very solid 3 or great #4. Lets not forget the very young but already experienced Luis Heredia who is another top 10 prospect in our system. To me, i'd rather have Glasnow, Kingham and Heredia than Taillon as a singular item.

Our OF depth is ridiculous with 2 of the 3 spots locked down for multiple years in Marte/Cutch. Polanco figures to be the 3rd long term solution as soon as middle 2014. We then have Meadows who i project better than Bell anyway.

Holmes is expendable given the depth of pitching as well as Matthisen with Sanchez and McGuire being in the system.

Taillon is not quite on the level Wil Myers was as a prospect (James Shields trade) but the gap is not very big at all. David Price is definitely more valuable than Shields but I think the inclusion of the other players fills that gap and doesn't mortgage our future given we deal from positions where we are saturated with talent.

Our starting rotation could/likely be downright filthy and give us a serious 2 year run at the WS.

Price
Liriano
Cole
Morton
Wandy/Locke/Cumpton

I'd be less tempted to do a deal for Price however the emergence of Glasnow and Kingham make it a risk worth taking. Price is one of the premier pitchers in the bigs and getting multiple seasons with an ace like that, could be the difference in getting to the next level. Glassnow would project as MLB ready by 2016 anyway, and Kingham easily before that as he's already at AA.

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Old
12-05-2013, 11:19 AM
  #977
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 87and71 View Post
I'd love to see us land Price, for the right, well, price. We have, at this point in time, arguably the most talented and deepest minor league system in the bigs. We are loaded with pitching and OF depth, and well to do behind the plate as well.

If i'm Huntington, i'm giving James Loney a 3 year, 25M deal and plugging him in as the everyday starter at 1B vs RH. Given his production last season and projections at PNC park, it's a very good value IMHO.

I'd then take a swing on Price who doesn't hit FA until after 2015. Offer up Taillon, Bell, Holmes and Mattisen. Deal from position of strengths. While losing Taillon hurts we saw the emergence of Tyler Glasnow and Nick Kingham make him slightly more movable. Glasnow is slightly further along than Taillon was and had a more dominant low A season. Obviously we'll see what high A and AA bring for TG, but i put him right on the heels of JT as far as pitching prospects going into 2014.

Kingham projects as a very solid 3 or great #4. Lets not forget the very young but already experienced Luis Heredia who is another top 10 prospect in our system. To me, i'd rather have Glasnow, Kingham and Heredia than Taillon as a singular item.

Our OF depth is ridiculous with 2 of the 3 spots locked down for multiple years in Marte/Cutch. Polanco figures to be the 3rd long term solution as soon as middle 2014. We then have Meadows who i project better than Bell anyway.

Holmes is expendable given the depth of pitching as well as Matthisen with Sanchez and McGuire being in the system.

Taillon is not quite on the level Wil Myers was as a prospect (James Shields trade) but the gap is not very big at all. David Price is definitely more valuable than Shields but I think the inclusion of the other players fills that gap and doesn't mortgage our future given we deal from positions where we are saturated with talent.

Our starting rotation could/likely be downright filthy and give us a serious 2 year run at the WS.

Price
Liriano
Cole
Morton
Wandy/Locke/Cumpton

I'd be less tempted to do a deal for Price however the emergence of Glasnow and Kingham make it a risk worth taking. Price is one of the premier pitchers in the bigs and getting multiple seasons with an ace like that, could be the difference in getting to the next level. Glassnow would project as MLB ready by 2016 anyway, and Kingham easily before that as he's already at AA.
Price is estimated to be given north of $13 million in arbitration the next two years (which is why he is on the block). After which he is gone as he will get significantly more. Move aside the talent that the Pirates would have to trade for him, the Pirates payroll is $66 million, of which other teams are paying significant parts of that, like the Yankees with Burnett's $16 million. Do you really see them adding 20 percent to their payroll in one player for the next two years, which giving up significant prospects to boot? Do you see them raising their payroll 20% at all given that they consistently have been bottom three to four in the league for a decade now?


It is a pipe dream. I am surprised that anyone bought into it.

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Old
12-05-2013, 11:22 AM
  #978
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I was going to make a post last night about how odd I thought it was that there has been absolutely no peeps about the Pirates impending logo change since it was leaked back in February, but I figured news would silently roll out any day now focused around the 'P'.

And with the slightest whimper that appears to not only be true, but simplified beyond my wildest dreams.

The Pirates 'new' logo is the standard cap logo 'P'...not the annoying outlined one, just the classic one. I love that and that's what I was lobbying for (as opposed to a San Diego-style 'circle around the cap logo' design that most seemed to expect, thanks largely to the increase usage of that alternate logo). The bandana-pirate sticks around in what was essentially it's only official use by the team last year - as a sleeve logo (without the wordmark behind it) and will remain an alternate logo.


In the end nothing really changes aside from the logo the Pirates have basically ceased using in all official manners over the past three years finally gets officially downgraded. It was known the Pirates weren't going to be altering the jerseys in any real way, but I'm still kinda shocked they're keeping the old logo around at all, instead of doing the franchise standard of updating it every ~15 years.






Trading for Price would be asanine. Not even bringing the finances into it, there's no reason for the Pirates to trade for a guy that they're not going to be able to sign long-term. It's not going to happen, obviously, and their inclusion on that list was a farce...but hey, more fuel for the Jaded gas canister

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Old
12-05-2013, 11:33 AM
  #979
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Awesome news Big, but the link is broken I think. Hopefully we never see red on a Pirates uniform again.

Edit: ****, I guess the pirate's bandana is still red. Still good to lose the wordmark though.

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Old
12-05-2013, 11:40 AM
  #980
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Really, that place is autocensored?

http://news.sports______logos.net/20...-logo-in-2014/
Without the gap.


Yeah, I really wish they'd at least color-swap the red out of that logo. The worst thing McClatchy ever did was try to force red into the color scheme. It just doesn't work with black & gold unless you're Team Germany.

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12-05-2013, 09:29 PM
  #981
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
Price is estimated to be given north of $13 million in arbitration the next two years (which is why he is on the block). After which he is gone as he will get significantly more. Move aside the talent that the Pirates would have to trade for him, the Pirates payroll is $66 million, of which other teams are paying significant parts of that, like the Yankees with Burnett's $16 million. Do you really see them adding 20 percent to their payroll in one player for the next two years, which giving up significant prospects to boot? Do you see them raising their payroll 20% at all given that they consistently have been bottom three to four in the league for a decade now?


It is a pipe dream. I am surprised that anyone bought into it.
The difference between us and you, as ever, is that we have a vested interest in discussing possibilities and hypothetical baseball moves, while you have (apparently) an interest in repeating the same things you've always and only ever said in these threads for five years.

We get it.

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Old
12-05-2013, 10:52 PM
  #982
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Originally Posted by DJ Spinoza View Post
The difference between us and you, as ever, is that we have a vested interest in discussing possibilities and hypothetical baseball moves, while you have (apparently) an interest in repeating the same things you've always and only ever said in these threads for five years.

We get it.
It's hard to be the guy that's right all the time.

The Pirates finally have a good mangment team. That team is operating within an economic system that is hugely unfair to markets like Pittsburgh. The only way to effectively compete within this unfair system is not to play moneyball, but to get out in front of the pack today, utilizing new creative ways of business, while following basic common sense principles for small markets.

Basic common sense for a market like Pittsburgh says you don't ever trade the farm for a great player you will only have for a year or two, during which said player will cost 20%+ of your budget.

The farm is everything for a team like the Bucks, who honestly got lucky with a couple value free agents, and a few trades, just when the farm is starting to produce.

This team is just like the Rays - they need to be shopping Alverez & Walker after next season to maximize their assists in an unfair system.

If we get lucky again with some VALUE moves this year, we could make the playoffs. But this organization is built right now for 15 & 16 the way player development & drafting has gone. And then in 17 & 18 we will have to trade our "Prices", to ensure we can be good again in 20, 21, & 22. And then it's starts all over again with trading the serious talent coming up this year and next.

The Pirates are basically forced to play college ball in a major league sport. It's not easy, and requires vision, discipline, and lots of hard, gut wrenching decisions.

But it's the only way for Pittsburgh to compete within current baseball economics. It's so obvious, and so clear to some of us; and it often gets frustrating to see all the "live in the moment damn tomorrow!" attitudes out there in Bucko Fandom. Even after 20 years in a row of losing....

Soapbox back in closet.

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Old
12-05-2013, 10:56 PM
  #983
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^ Good post, Gallatin.

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Old
12-05-2013, 11:18 PM
  #984
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Aside from the pain of seeing the word 'Bucko', that was a perfect post.

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Old
12-06-2013, 04:25 AM
  #985
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Aside from the pain of seeing the word 'Bucko', that was a perfect post.
Thanx. There's a lot a Tim Williams in that post, one of the best Bloggers in any sport IMO.

Really hoping we can pick up Loney for 7 a year or so right now, then probably trade for a starting pitcher assuming AJ stays retired.

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Old
12-06-2013, 10:01 AM
  #986
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Wow, Cano to the Mariners. 10 years/240 million.

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12-06-2013, 10:12 AM
  #987
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Ridiculous deal

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Old
12-06-2013, 10:17 AM
  #988
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That is crazy.

On a lesser scale, how about LA signing Brian Wilson for $10 mill. ? That's idiotic.

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Old
12-06-2013, 10:38 AM
  #989
87and71
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10 years at 24M per for a guy who is 31 and will start to slowly regress? It makes me happy that we don't have a billion $$$$ to just waste. More satisfying.

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Old
12-06-2013, 10:46 AM
  #990
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One of these years I am going to figure out how 90% of the country has learned from these contracts and knows they are moronic, yet the 30 guys that actually make these decisions show no progress.

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12-06-2013, 11:08 AM
  #991
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I had no idea the Mariners even had that kind of money. Good thing these contracts typically work out so well.

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12-06-2013, 12:02 PM
  #992
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That is crazy.

On a lesser scale, how about LA signing Brian Wilson for $10 mill. ? That's idiotic.
Money literally ain't no thang with the Dodgers ownership...it's kinda sickening.

At least Wilson has a defined role with the team, unlike their previous $10 million arm this off-season.

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I had no idea the Mariners even had that kind of money. Good thing these contracts typically work out so well.
A new Super Mario Bros. game was released.

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12-06-2013, 12:08 PM
  #993
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I had no idea the Mariners even had that kind of money. Good thing these contracts typically work out so well.
Good life lesson. Save and save and save and then when you finally have enough to get something nice, make a solid, fail-safe investment like this.

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Old
12-06-2013, 12:26 PM
  #994
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Yeah yeah, I am evil, the devil and you all know that I strangle kittens wearing Pirate's jerseys in my spare time. Now that we have that out of the way, if I have something meaningful to say I will say it.

As for the question of these signings, and the obscene dollar amounts, it is all about television revenues. Advertisers have a hard time getting programming that men in a certain demographic watch. For some reason they think baseball is one of the few places they can reach them in any numbers. Honestly, even knowing that i do not get it. The really tough demographic is young men and those numbers, as well as overall numbers, have been declining rapidly for years now.

We're specifically not having this conversation nine years ago, because that's the last time MLB on Fox ratings were going up consistently year-to-year. Let's take a look at baseball's year-to-year numbers on broadcast for the past decade, via Sports Business Journal. Aside from 2011, you can obviously see a trend.

Year Viewers
2012 2.50 million
2011 2.74 million
2010 2.70 million
2009 2.70 million
2008 2.90 million
2007 3.31 million
2006 3.34 million
2005 3.60 million
2004 3.44 million
2003 3.37 million


http://www.sbnation.com/2013/7/2/448...trend-downward

They lost almost a million viewers, a quarter of their viewership, over the last decade.

It REALLY makes me wonder why hockey can not get anything close to the deal baseball gets. The NHL numbers have been going in the opposite direction:

The NHL returned to action Saturday afternoon and the fans returned with it.

NBC announced Sunday that its regional telecasts Saturday afternoon delivered a 2.0 overnight rating, giving the network its highest rating for an NHL regular-season game since it posted a 2.4 mark for the 2012 Bridgestone/NHL Winter Classic. The rating was the highest overnight mark for any regular-season game other than a Winter Classic in 11 years.

Saturday's regional broadcast of Flyers and Penguins was particularly strong in the home markets, registering a 7.8 rating in Philadelphia and a 19.4 mark in Pittsburgh.

NBC's coverage of the NHL's opening weekend continued with a national broadcast of the Flyers' visit to Buffalo Sunday afternoon, and will also feature Chicago's visit to Phoenix Sunday night on NBC Sports Network
.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=651499

Granted the NHL is still not getting the viewers baseball is, but it is not that much of a gap anymore. And granted baseball is national where hockey is regional. But still, the differences do not justify the huge chasm between revenues from television. Hockey has to be a bargain compared to MLB for advertisers looking to reach that demographic.

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12-06-2013, 12:37 PM
  #995
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The biggest thing that is driving the local TV deals up is the markets with competing RSNs. The Angels bring in more than $120 million per year just from their local TV deal. Why? The Dodgers are right next door (well, 31.8 miles away, but they share the same media market).

Hell, that partially explains how the goddamned Padres get $60 million per year and recently sold for $800 million despite being a small market never-was. The single network markets sorta get left in the dust...the Pirates with $18 million annually get considerably more than the Cardinals at $12 million...just think about that.


Of course the entire model is based on getting those subscription fees from cable...which is a market that's drying up. It's an unsustainable business practice in my eyes, but companies are competing to stay relevant today...let whatever ******* has my job in 10 years deal with the fallout.

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12-06-2013, 01:20 PM
  #996
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If the Mariners end up sending Taijuan Walker and a bunch of other top picks to get Price, which seems to make sense now, we will have a quintessential example of what not to do, unless we evaluate the trade from the Rays side as something we will need to be prepared to do over the coming years.

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12-06-2013, 01:33 PM
  #997
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if that does happen it just means that it is getting harder to emulate the rays as you have to imagine the royals/mariners stupidity has to be recognized sooner rather than later.

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