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The Carey Price Discussion Thread (Part 6)

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Old
10-09-2013, 03:23 PM
  #301
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
finally a breakthrough. Price will follow Koivu into the abyss.
Well, does it mean it was a good idea to get rid of Koivu? If you ask around, I think many people still believe we should have kept him. Maybe he wasn't the right captain, but from a purely hockey standpoint, it's hard to argue that he couldn't have provided us many more years of good hockey on the second or third line. Koivu was a good hockey player, just not the god people expected him to be. That's not a failure of Koivu, that's a failure of the fan's obsessions.

So what if Price can't (or at least, isn't) carry the team by himself? He's still a good goalie. He's still part of the solution. If we get rid of him just because he doesn't answer our irrational expectations, we'll still wonder, in the middle of yet another goalie controversy, why exactly we wanted him out. He's also a better goalie than Koivu was a first-line center, and has yet to even enter his prime.

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10-09-2013, 03:25 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by Adriatic View Post
Yes you are right, he's never won the cup, but you are missing my point. I didn't mean he had to deliver 16 wins by himself. But Lundqvist on numerous occasions was stuck on bad teams with weak defense, facing 40+ and 50+ shots and still managed to play good and be the Rangers' best player in the playoffs. There is a big difference between Lundqvist playoff performances and Price's, I sincerely hope you can see that. If not I can't really help you.
If you're going to hold the same standard as for Price, then you can't say Lundqvist had great post seasons prior to the 2011-2012 season. If it's the same standard, then he was pretty average-decent up until that point. So before the age of 30, he only had one real good PO year.

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10-09-2013, 03:25 PM
  #303
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Shall we dig out the power rankings ? Come on now.. Every year is supposed to be their year. It's not like they finished first in the league two years ago (2nd in the whole league) They had some really good ''paper'' teams.
You can take those power ranking and flush them down the tube. Habs were top 5 power ranking last year, did that really mean anything. You're dreaming if Rangers were ever considered a powerhouse and true contender to win a cup. In fact Rangers had pretty much one of the worst offensive records for playoff teams and most of time we're seeded 6-7-8.

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10-09-2013, 03:26 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
If you're going to hold the same standard as for Price, then you can't say Lundqvist had great post seasons prior to the 2011-2012 season. If it's the same standard, then he was pretty average-decent up until that point. So before the age of 30, he only had one real good PO year.
So, we're ahead Price has two !

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10-09-2013, 03:27 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Shall we dig out the power rankings ? Come on now.. Every year is supposed to be their year. It's not like they finished first in the league two years ago (2nd in the whole league) They had some really good ''paper'' teams.
Well, they were one game away from making a trip to the cup finals that year. However, they did lose three consecutive games (were winning the series 3-1) to get ousted in the conference finals, allowing 12 goals in three games. If that would happen here, I'm sure many would invoke the "choke job" narrative against Price.


Last edited by Andy: 10-09-2013 at 04:20 PM.
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10-09-2013, 03:28 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by Adriatic View Post
You can take those power ranking and flush them down the tube. Habs were top 5 power ranking last year, did that really mean anything. You're dreaming if Rangers were ever considered a powerhouse and true contender to win a cup. In fact Rangers had pretty much one of the worst offensive records for playoff teams and most of time we're seeded 6-7-8.
Sounds like the Habs from 2008 until last year.

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10-09-2013, 03:28 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
If you're going to hold the same standard as for Price, then you can't say Lundqvist had great post seasons prior to the 2011-2012 season. If it's the same standard, then he was pretty average-decent up until that point. So before the age of 30, he only had one real good PO year.
Yes to me he had great post seasons. He was the best player but surrounded by horrible teams. Price's situation is different. He was also surrounded by bad teams, except he was also one of the teams worst players on it.

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10-09-2013, 03:30 PM
  #308
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Yes to me he had great post seasons. He was the best player but surrounded by horrible teams. Price's situation is different. He was also surrounded by bad teams, except he was also one of the teams worst players on it.



Well thats just completely dishonest of you...

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Sounds like the Habs from 2008 until last year.
Except you can add in horrible coaching/defense also. (Aside from the JM era.)

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10-09-2013, 03:34 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
[/B]


Well thats just completely dishonest of you...
Oh really. Why don't you go ask Ranger fans about those playoffs. Rangers didn't do squat but Lundqvist was their best player, still played amazing and gave his teams a chance. Quite the opposite for Price as he tends to quit even before his team does.

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10-09-2013, 03:35 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by Goldthorpe View Post
Well, does it mean it was a good idea to get rid of Koivu? If you ask around, I think many people still believe we should have kept him. Maybe he wasn't the right captain, but from a purely hockey standpoint, it's hard to argue that he couldn't have provided us many more years of good hockey on the second or third line. Koivu was a good hockey player, just not the god people expected him to be. That's not a failure of Koivu, that's a failure of the fan's obsessions.
Koivu probably should have been traded in 05-06. He would have been a decent rental piece and having a hot season would have given Montreal a nice return. Instead they re-signed him for three years. Put up very solid numbers in 06-07 but it didn't do much.

He never really had much control in his locker room. Was a better player than he gets credit for but wasn't much of a leader. The amount of times the locker room was fragmented was just ridiculous.

Gionta has done a much better job with the C. The team seems very tight. People buy into the system very fast. There used to be a dozen distractions on Koivu teams. Since Gionta the biggest distraction is whether or not Subban is too cocky. Pretty big difference.

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10-09-2013, 04:07 PM
  #311
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It's just hilarious because the people who dislike Carey Price think he has bad numbers, but then when you compare his numbers to the top goalies in the league, he has similar numbers to almost all of them. In addition, he is one of the youngest goalies with the most experience. He has also won a gold medal in the World Juniors and a Calder Cup in the AHL.

Then the next excuse is that he is "inconsistent". Don't bother asking for proof, because there isn't any. Every goalie has rough games, and they can't stand on their heads every game. Lundqvist was pulled yesterday, does that mean he is inconsistent? Rinne was pulled in his first game, does that mean he's inconsistent? No, it means they can't save their team every night, which is what some people seem to expect from Price. People need to watch hockey OUTSIDE the Montreal Canadiens and realize that Price really is a top goalie in this league, and at this young age, he can only get better.

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10-09-2013, 04:08 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by Adriatic View Post
Oh really. Why don't you go ask Ranger fans about those playoffs. Rangers didn't do squat but Lundqvist was their best player, still played amazing and gave his teams a chance. Quite the opposite for Price as he tends to quit even before his team does.
Yea, while Price may be better than many goalies, the one thing he has not done besides one series is carry the team. It seems, as the team goes...so does Price. He's not at that level yet where he can carry his team. Maybe it'll come with experience. The funny thing is his biggest supporters don't seem to realize this.

He hasn't played like a top goalie in the playoffs no matter how you slice it or who you want to blame for that.

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10-09-2013, 04:10 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
It's just hilarious because the people who dislike Carey Price think he has bad numbers, but then when you compare his numbers to the top goalies in the league, he has similar numbers to almost all of them. In addition, he is one of the youngest goalies with the most experience. He has also won a gold medal in the World Juniors and a Calder Cup in the AHL.

Then the next excuse is that he is "inconsistent". Don't bother asking for proof, because there isn't any. Every goalie has rough games, and they can't stand on their heads every game. Lundqvist was pulled yesterday, does that mean he is inconsistent? Rinne was pulled in his first game, does that mean he's inconsistent? People need to watch hockey OUTSIDE the Montreal Canadiens and realize that Price really is a top goalie in this league, and at this young age, he can only get better.
The hilarious thing is how you rag on people for using excuses when you do the same...exact....thing...

Calder Cup and Junior wins mean absolutely nothing. I don't know why they keep getting brought up.

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10-09-2013, 04:22 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
It's just hilarious because the people who dislike Carey Price think he has bad numbers, but then when you compare his numbers to the top goalies in the league, he has similar numbers to almost all of them. In addition, he is one of the youngest goalies with the most experience. He has also won a gold medal in the World Juniors and a Calder Cup in the AHL.

Then the next excuse is that he is "inconsistent". Don't bother asking for proof, because there isn't any. Every goalie has rough games, and they can't stand on their heads every game. Lundqvist was pulled yesterday, does that mean he is inconsistent? Rinne was pulled in his first game, does that mean he's inconsistent? No, it means they can't save their team every night, which is what some people seem to expect from Price. People need to watch hockey OUTSIDE the Montreal Canadiens and realize that Price really is a top goalie in this league, and at this young age, he can only get better.
Plz tell us with who we should compare his numbers with ?
And if you don't mind do the research yourself and post the results.

So far your analysis have been pretty far off.

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10-09-2013, 04:27 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
People need to watch hockey OUTSIDE the Montreal Canadiens and realize that Price really is a top goalie in this league, and at this young age, he can only get better.
Why are you so positive he will get better? Can you see the future? Not every goalie in the NHL continues to get better each year. A lot of them stop getting better at some point. Is it possible he won't get better?

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10-09-2013, 04:40 PM
  #316
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The numbers aren't random. They include ALL the regular season games played until Emelin got hurt.

.920 SV% over 167 games until Emelin got hurt.

Also, no player is perfect for 82 games. Since 2010, April of last season is definitely the outlier.

In 17 months since 2010, Price has posted under .900SV% in an entire month twice.
In 17 months since 2010, Price has posted under .905SV% in an entire month 4 times.
In 17 months since 2010, Price has posted under .910V% in an entire month 5 times.


In fact, when you look at his stats monthy, you realize even more how much those 8 games over the last two and 2/3rds of season are outliers, thanks Ohashi.

In the month of last season he played 11 games, his cumulative SV% was .876.

in 8 april games after injury: 856%
in the 3 April games prior to the injury: 924% ---- 2W-1L-0OTL
Good job. Now realize that anything below 0.910 is actually below average. So excellent work painting the picture that Price has actually been below average for at least a solid 5 of the last 17 months, but I doubt that was your intention.

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10-09-2013, 04:41 PM
  #317
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Why the !/)%"*/%*")% are we talking about Carey Price at this very moment?

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10-09-2013, 04:53 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
The hilarious thing is how you rag on people for using excuses when you do the same...exact....thing...

Calder Cup and Junior wins mean absolutely nothing. I don't know why they keep getting brought up.
Oh really eh? Hey can you tell me which one was an excuse? Because as far as I can tell, most of that post was actually just me stating facts. Where are the excuses? You're the one who keeps complaining about Price not being consistent, but refusing to show any proof. And you're whining about people "moving the goalposts" whenever you lose an argument.

You seriously think Calder Cup and World Cup championships mean nothing? That's just ridiculous. Price was outstanding in both, and they are definitely mean more than "nothing". Seriously, they are the highest achievement in both levels of play. That means a lot to a young player who can elevate his game in those situations.

EDIT: Also, I'm still waiting for your justification at how Price is so "inconsistent".

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Originally Posted by Genesis76 View Post
Plz tell us with who we should compare his numbers with ?
And if you don't mind do the research yourself and post the results.

So far your analysis have been pretty far off.
Compare them to the top goalies in the league. Price has similar numbers to Quick and to Rinne, often considered top goalies in the NHL, and is also younger than both of them. Yet he has also played more games than them despite his age. And you're trying to say he's a middle of the pack goalie?

So far your analysis has been pretty far off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adriatic View Post
Why are you so positive he will get better? Can you see the future? Not every goalie in the NHL continues to get better each year. A lot of them stop getting better at some point. Is it possible he won't get better?
Everyone can agree Price has a huge amount of raw talent. When you combine that with the experience he has in the NHL at only 26 years of age, it is pretty impressive. He's won championships and playoffs in his past, even carried his team in those important games, and has proven that he can elevate his game to the next level. Why would you not assume, with his undoubtedly solid career in the NHL so far at his young age, that he can do the same in the NHL? He has a promising career ahead of him.

Frankly, I find it silly that people are doubting him when he has already achieved so much in his career, and is still very young relatively speaking. It's certainly possible he regresses, but the evidence we have been provided would tell us otherwise at this point.


Last edited by JohnLennon: 10-09-2013 at 05:00 PM.
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10-09-2013, 04:56 PM
  #319
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Good job. Now realize that anything below 0.910 is actually below average. So excellent work painting the picture that Price has actually been below average for at least a solid 5 of the last 17 months, but I doubt that was your intention.
  • since 2010, Lundqvist has been below average for 3 months out of 18 (4 if you want to include the .910 month)
  • since 2010, Rinne has been below average for 4 months out of 18.
  • since 2010, Price has been below average for 5 months out of 17 months.
  • since 2010, Niemi has been below average for 5 months out of 18 months
  • since 2010, Crawford has been below average for 6 months out of 18 months
  • since 2010, Rask has been below average for 6 months out of 17 months.
  • since 2010, Halak has been below average for 7 months out of 18.
  • since 2010, Quick has been below average for 7 months out of 18
  • since 2010, Howard has been below average for 8 months out of 18 months
  • since 2010, Backstrom has been below average for 8 months out of 18 months.

Looks about as consistent as all those other goalies that are claimed to be better than him. Pretty consistent to me, no goalie is flawless, even some of the best. Again, thanks Ohashi for pushing me to go and uncover more statistics that show just how consistent Price has been since 2010. It puts things into perspective when measuring him up to other goalies.

Again, all the complaints about Carey Price stem from those 8 games after Emelin got hurt (and of course, his playoff performances). He's been about as consistent as you can get since he was given the starting job back after Halak was traded.


Last edited by Andy: 10-09-2013 at 05:29 PM.
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10-09-2013, 05:38 PM
  #320
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Nice, lets insult people because they have better arguments that yours

Also, Emelin is a really important presence on our blue line.

Without him, Markov, Diaz, Weber, Drewiske and Bouillon all had more work load which means lesser quality of D. Keep in mind that Emelin was our 2nd Dman at ES just behind Gorges, who had a rough year.
His argument is extremely poor imo, yet he keeps repeating it. Nik Lidstrom never affected SV % to this degree. It's poor math. No number 4/5 dman has had an impact on sv % like this in the history of the league.

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10-09-2013, 05:40 PM
  #321
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Anderson got steam rolled by a good team right after us

Theres a difference, we couldn't shoot on him, we didn't have any traffic. You can't say without being biased(negative towards Price) that Anderson was the reason they won that series. We lost as a team.

He had those stats : .818, .842, .980, .857, .867

Thats a good goalie ? I don't get it.

What were Price ? .938, .800, .967, .871

Now maybe you'll think Pittsburgh was a much greater team than us, which is right. But we failed to a team much worse than Pittsburgh at the same time. You always always always have to look at the play, not at the stats.

Price had those stats over the whole playoffs.905 2.90 GAA
Anderson: .926 3.01 GAA
50 shots in a single suggests we were shooting on him just fine. These arguments are beyond ridiculous.

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10-09-2013, 05:44 PM
  #322
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Why the !/)%"*/%*")% are we talking about Carey Price at this very moment?
Exactly.

Let him play a nice 10-game sample at least.

Let's see what the new coach does for him.

And the married life too.

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10-09-2013, 05:44 PM
  #323
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His argument is extremely poor imo, yet he keeps repeating it. Nik Lidstrom never affected SV % to this degree. It's poor math. No number 4/5 dman has had an impact on sv % like this in the history of the league.
No I keep repeating that it was the combo of having Diaz and Emelin out of the lineup that hurt the team. It wasn't just Price that played subpar, but the team and Budaj as well.

Also, not true, Nik Lidstrom was injured in the month of March in 2011. Howard went 1-3-1 in his absence, posting a .886SV%. It was outlier definitely in comparison to the rest of that season.

Joey MacDonald also played in the month of March went 1-4 with a .865 SV%. He played only one other month that season, Feb went 7-1-1 with .934SV%, Lidstrom wasn't hurt.

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/nhl/playe...fgM6?year=2011


Last edited by Andy: 10-09-2013 at 05:50 PM.
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10-09-2013, 05:51 PM
  #324
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
  • since 2010, Lundqvist has been below average for 3 months out of 18 (4 if you want to include the .910 month)
  • since 2010, Rinne has been below average for 4 months out of 18.
  • since 2010, Price has been below average for 5 months out of 17 months.
  • since 2010, Niemi has been below average for 5 months out of 18 months
  • since 2010, Crawford has been below average for 6 months out of 18 months
  • since 2010, Rask has been below average for 6 months out of 17 months.
  • since 2010, Halak has been below average for 7 months out of 18.
  • since 2010, Quick has been below average for 7 months out of 18
  • since 2010, Howard has been below average for 8 months out of 18 months
  • since 2010, Backstrom has been below average for 8 months out of 18 months.

Looks about as consistent as all those other goalies that are claimed to be better than him. Pretty consistent to me, no goalie is flawless, even some of the best. Again, thanks Ohashi for pushing me to go and uncover more statistics that show just how consistent Price has been since 2010. It puts things into perspective when measuring him up to other goalies.

Again, all the complaints about Carey Price stem from those 8 games after Emelin got hurt (and of course, his playoff performances). He's been about as consistent as you can get since he was given the starting job back after Halak was traded.
You have officially won this thread.

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10-09-2013, 05:51 PM
  #325
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
No I keep repeating that it was the combo of having Diaz and Emelin out of the lineup that hurt the team. It wasn't just Price that played subpar, but the team and Budaj as well.

Also, not true, Nik Lidstrom was injured in the month of March in 2011. Howard went 1-3-1 in his absence, posting a .886SV%. It was outlier definitely in comparison to the rest of that season.

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/nhl/playe...fgM6?year=2011
You've added this little tidbit as your story continues to evolve. Entire rosters don't impact sv % to this degree. Maybe if you repeat it long enough it will become true, but I'd bet against it.

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