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The Carey Price Discussion Thread (Part 6)

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10-12-2013, 08:31 PM
  #651
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I know. But how many WITH Emelin?

Also, yes you are right....all the other goalies had that. And Rinne was seen as terrible for it. Quick was seen as dissapointing. Lundqvist...well he still ended up with .926. And yet...how come losing Marc Staal wasn't a big deal? 'Cause the Rangers are so incredible on D? Yet, isn't Staal considered top 2? Were the Rangers that great so that losing a top 2 wasn't a big deal?
6 of the 8 games played without Emelin were under .900.

I'm sorry WS, but we are holding Price to a ridiculous standard and saying that Gainey was feeding him down are throat is a cop out.

All the stats have shown the last few pages is that Price is no more prone to bad stretches than any other goalie and is just outside the top 10 in goalie stats since 2010 despite having to hear every year how we are "mediocre".

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10-12-2013, 08:36 PM
  #652
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
6 of those below .900 came in the 8 games after Emelin got hurt,

Also, no goalie is perfect all season long, just a short example:

Lundqvist had 15 games last season below .900
Pekka Rinne had 17 games last season below.900
Quick had 13 games last season below .900
And the number of games in which they exceeded the average by at least the same amount?

Lundqvist: 24 decisions
Rinne: 22 decisions
Price: 20 decisions
Quick: 18 decisions

But as you should know, most people will readily recognize that Quick and Price "overall", individually, were pretty equally effective last regular season, and Rinne wasn't exactly miles ahead of either, so there's no need to belabour that point. Quick's the one with 38 post season games padding his resume for the past two seasons alone, though. Bottom line is, though, that even though the margin in either case is slight (whether we talk about # of "above average" or "below average" games - purely statistically, mind you), put together, Price is one whose positives were weighed down the most by the negatives.

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10-12-2013, 08:36 PM
  #653
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Again, you keep pointing out when we finished last but in your analysis don't speak of when we finished 2nd in Conference. Keep kinda of excusing his performance by how poor our teams have been and yet, don't mention that we probably should take this into account for other goalies. And again....it's not solely about Save%. It's not. The goalie stops 36 shots out of 40 and gets a .900. Yet you stop 14 shots out of 15 and you get a .933. I know, it's not always like that but how about real quality chances? How about really bad goals given? How about a needed key save? It's really as if Price is the only one that is looked at with your analysis and all the other goalies are on a different type of analysis.

And again...there is scrutiny 'cause he was sold by this stupid organizatoin as the ultimate saviour. He wasn't. Unfortunately, you will not be able to put the expectations back to what it should be. Too late for that because a certain GM thought that in this market, you could actually throw everybody in the garbage for a really young goalie. This pisses me off more than the actual Price performances...

Also....how many goalie coaches has Price seen? 3? How about the other goalies? Is it solely for marketing purposes because it's Montreal? Or is/was there really a problem?
You keep saying this and I still don't know what you're talking about. When was this selling going on? Was there a 'buy it now' option? Why do you keep repeating this?

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10-12-2013, 08:39 PM
  #654
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
I've been watching hockey all week and every game has weak goals no matter the goalie.
Could be a problem with the rose tint setting on your monitor then.

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10-12-2013, 08:41 PM
  #655
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Could be a problem with the rose tint setting on your monitor then.
No you're right, goalies are perfect, never let in bad goals, every goal that is allowed is an absolute perfect play. Only Price lets in softies. Every goal on Bernier, Bishop, Neuvirth, Bobrovski, Lehotenen tonight were unstoppable,

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10-12-2013, 08:44 PM
  #656
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
No you're right, goalies are perfect, never let in bad goals, every goal that is allowed is an absolute perfect play. Only Price let's in softies. Every goal on Bernier, Bishop, Neuvirth, Bobrovski, Lehotenen tonight were unstoppable,
I'll ask you a second time to stop turning everything into ridiculous and unstated exaggerations.

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10-12-2013, 08:45 PM
  #657
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I'll ask you a second time to stop turning everything into ridiculous and unstated exaggerations.
And I'll ask you again to stop being disingenuous.

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10-12-2013, 08:45 PM
  #658
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And I'll ask you again to stop being disingenuous.
Least of anyone's worries here.

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10-12-2013, 08:46 PM
  #659
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
6 of the 8 games played without Emelin were under .900.

I'm sorry WS, but we are holding Price to a ridiculous standard and saying that Gainey was feeding him down are throat is a cop out.

All the stats have shown the last few pages is that Price is no more prone to bad stretches than any other goalie and is just outside the top 10 in goalie stats since 2010 despite having to hear every year how we are "mediocre".
Cop out? I mean, Price also his great performances to blame in a way....Starts with WHL and CHL goalie of the year in Juniors. Top 5 pick coming totally out of the blue while we have a Trophy winner in our ranks. WJC champion and MVP with the myth that starts there (calling Price's performance as one of the best in OT and shutout while he was really bad in the shutout..), then a AHL champion and MVP coming right off the Juniors....Only goalie in HISTORY to have ever won CHL goalie of the year, WJC MVP and Calder Cup MVP. Youngest player ever to have won the Calder Cup MVP award. Then sending a fan favorite in Huet in a trade for a pick to make room for him. Then sending another fan favorite away after our most exciting playoffs in 20 years to make more room for him. Then giving him that contract. And you really wonder about the scrutiny?

So whether it was his fault.....or not at all, circumstances makes him a guy under incredible scrutiny. Add the fact that all that is in a city like Montreal and you get the idea. At the very least, we should have been more patient with him to start his NHL career. That's the only thing we had control over and we didn't.

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10-12-2013, 08:48 PM
  #660
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Least of anyone's worries here.
You're right, probably because level-headed posters can see right through that crap. Probably why you've already been called out on it by several different posters.


Last edited by Andy: 10-12-2013 at 08:53 PM.
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10-12-2013, 08:49 PM
  #661
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Cop out? I mean, Price also his great performances to blame in a way....Starts with WHL and CHL goalie of the year in Juniors. Top 5 pick coming totally out of the blue while we have a Trophy winner in our ranks. WJC champion and MVP with the myth that starts there (calling Price's performance as one of the best in OT and shutout while he was really bad in the shutout..), then a AHL champion and MVP coming right off the Juniors....Only goalie in HISTORY to have ever won CHL goalie of the year, WJC MVP and Calder Cup MVP. Youngest player ever to have won the Calder Cup MVP award. Then sending a fan favorite in Huet in a trade for a pick to make room for him. Then sending another fan favorite away after our most exciting playoffs in 20 years to make more room for him. Then giving him that contract. And you really wonder about the scrutiny?

So whether it was his fault.....or not at all, circumstances makes him a guy under incredible scrutiny. Add the fact that all that is in a city like Montreal and you get the idea. At the very least, we should have been more patient with him to start his NHL career. That's the only thing we had control over and we didn't.
I'm sorry, but there are no excuses for irrationality. That's your problem if you can't tame expectations.

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10-12-2013, 08:49 PM
  #662
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
You keep saying this and I still don't know what you're talking about. When was this selling going on? Was there a 'buy it now' option? Why do you keep repeating this?
You know my point about this as we've discussed it times and times again. And if you see my post to Andy, post about how we send everything away to make room for him, to which you already stated to me that you don't agree with, well that's what I'm talking about. No matter the Cup win, the idea was to keep him for at least a full year in the AHL. Let him learn the ups and downs in the pros and keep him humble. Let him learn slowly the game and the market.

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10-12-2013, 08:53 PM
  #663
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You're right, probably because level-headed posters can see right through that crap.
Sorry dude, we're not on your side here. I'm sure everyone will chime in if they care.

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10-12-2013, 08:54 PM
  #664
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I'm sorry, but there are no excuses for irrationality. That's your problem if you can't tame expectations.
Tame expectations? Why should I when my own organization doesn't? When the organization take that young Junior goalie, send Halak who was the starting goalie in Hamilton during the regular season and send him to Bahamas for the playoffs and make him the starting goalie there and he win it all? And then send 2 starters away to make room for him to start? And we are not talking about learning years here...we are talking about a Montreal Canadiens who finished 1st in the division and a Huet who was having a great season and a even better season when he joined the Caps. And a Montreal Canadiens team that had just seen their best playoffs run, send the goalie responsible for it away to make room for what, I,m sure, we would have hope for a continuity of it all no? So.....if the team's expectation was incredibly high....why couldn't I have the same?

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10-12-2013, 08:55 PM
  #665
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Sorry dude, we're not on your side here. I'm sure everyone will chime in if they care.
I wasn't the one being called disingenuous several times by different posters in this thread. From your post suggesting that Budaj can be as good as Price, to your discussion about technique to your debate about moving goal posts, all I've seen is misleading crap on your part. Frankly, I expect more from you, but hey, I guess even some of the best posters here have irrational biases.

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10-12-2013, 08:57 PM
  #666
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Tame expectations? Why should I when my own organization doesn't? When the organization take that young Junior goalie, send Halak who was the starting goalie in Hamilton during the regular season and send him to Bahamas for the playoffs and make him the starting goalie there and he win it all? And then send 2 starters away to make room for him to start? And we are not talking about learning years here...we are talking about a Montreal Canadiens who finished 1st in the division and a Huet who was having a great season and a even better season when he joined the Caps. And a Montreal Canadiens team that had just seen their best playoffs run, send the goalie responsible for it away to make room for what, I,m sure, we would have hope for a continuity of it all no? So.....if the team's expectation was incredibly high....why couldn't I have the same?
I see more excuses here WS. So we can be critical about everything that management has done, we critqued the Gomez trade, the acquisition of small players, Kaberle and all the narratives that surrounded it, but the one that accompanied Price made it impossible to tame expectations? I'm sorry WS, but that is a bunch of horse ****.

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10-12-2013, 09:01 PM
  #667
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
I wasn't the one being called disingenuous several times by different posters in this thread. From your post suggesting that Budaj can be as good as Price, to your discussion about technique to your debate about moving goal posts, all I've seen is misleading crap on your part. Frankly, I expect more from you, but hey, I guess even some of the best posters here have irrational biases.
Bold: never happened. Can only tell you how they performed according to a variety of statistical lenses - none quite as rose coloured as yours.
Underlined: care to take a stab at a "true" exploration of goaltending technique? What's your critique here, because that's one carrot on a stick that I'm always willing to jump at. Fair warning.
Italics: "debate"? There was/is no debate. Head to head comparison, you use head to head seasons. Those are regulation goal posts.

No one has been more misleading, intentional or otherwise, than you over the past couple of pages.

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10-12-2013, 09:07 PM
  #668
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I see more excuses here WS. So we can be critical about everything that management has done, we critqued the Gomez trade, the acquisition of small players, Kaberle and all the narratives that surrounded it, but the one that accompanied Price made it impossible to tame expectations? I'm sorry WS, but that is a bunch of horse ****.
Excuses? Where? That's just exactly what happened. Honestly, you are clearly not reading. Surely seems to be an incredible touchy subject for you....but again, the management had high expectations. Why can't we? How does your expectations comes? Mine comes with past results....Everybody selected in the 1st round of a draft is expected to be a top player. Everybody knows it's not always like that and yet, the ones who don't make it are called bust....The ones who are picked in the 6th round, if they don't make it...it's expected. The ones that do are called surprised even if in the end, the 6th rounder was just a bad call by most people except the team that chose him. With everything that happened in Price history, it's totally normal to have had high expectations. Incredibly normal. And the management AGREED with those.

Now.....somehow, we are so tough on Price that people are still behind him. Still hope he does great. And all that despite a really poor playoffs record. Playoff record he wasn't able to have and the ex-fan favorite was able to at least have 1 better one. Every freakin bad, to average, to even good regular season Price will have will be forgotten until he has a really great playoffs. Until then, he needs to reassured people by being better than he was. Save% or not.

You're talking about me and my excuses, and yet you are the one with the infamous Emelin's absence....and yet didn't reply to my Staal example? Incredibly enough, you seem to have no problem giving excuses to Price but fans here....cannot use any to explain our expectations? Sorry, but that's horse ****.

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10-12-2013, 09:08 PM
  #669
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
You know my point about this as we've discussed it times and times again. And if you see my post to Andy, post about how we send everything away to make room for him, to which you already stated to me that you don't agree with, well that's what I'm talking about. No matter the Cup win, the idea was to keep him for at least a full year in the AHL. Let him learn the ups and downs in the pros and keep him humble. Let him learn slowly the game and the market.
I remember us debating whether or not he was brought up too early yes. I don't remember anyone "selling" him as a saviour. If he was then I could understand why people would be upset but I don't understand this sentiment.

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10-12-2013, 09:09 PM
  #670
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Excuses? Where? That's just exactly what happened. Honestly, you are clearly not reading. Surely seems to be an incredible touchy subject for you....but again, the management had high expectations. Why can't we? How does your expectations comes? Mine comes with past results....Everybody selected in the 1st round of a draft is expected to be a top player. Everybody knows it's not always like that and yet, the ones who don't make it are called bust....The ones who are picked in the 6th round, if they don't make it...it's expected. The ones that do are called surprised even if in the end, the 6th rounder was just a bad call by most people except the team that chose him. With everything that happened in Price history, it's totally normal to have had high expectations. Incredibly normal. And the management AGREED with their decisions.

Now.....somehow, we are so tough on Price that people are still behind him. Still hope he does great. And all that despite a really poor playoffs record. Playoff record he wasn't able to have and the ex-fan favorite was able to at least have 1 better one. Every freakin bad, to average, to even good regular season Price will have will be forgotten until he has a really great playoffs. Until then, he needs to reassured people by being better than he was. Save% or not.

You're talking about me and my excuses, and yet you are the one with the infamous Emelin's absence....and yet didn't reply to my Staal example? Incredibly enough, you seem to have no problem giving excuses to Price but fans here....cannot use any to explain our expectations? Sorry, but that's horse ****.
So what happened then WS? Why did the TEAM collapse after Emelin got hurt? What happened? Why did they get exposed of that day? I'm tired of suggesting explanations, I want to be given some. You tell me what happened.

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10-12-2013, 09:28 PM
  #671
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Price with a big time save on Sedin.

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10-12-2013, 09:38 PM
  #672
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So what happened then WS? Why did the TEAM collapse after Emelin got hurt? What happened? Why did they get exposed of that day? I'm tired of suggesting explanations, I want to be given some. You tell me what happened.
I did answer. Geez, that's why I said you are not reading. I said tht clearly those 8 games plunge his Save% to the ground. Didn't you not see that? But also said that he had 10 other games where he was below .900. But could it also be a combination of tons of things? Was it solely because Emelin is awesome? Because we don,t have any depth? Because Price was in struggling mode? 'Cause in the process of a 82-game season, you do have bad stretches, from a goalie to a forward...was it Price bad stretch that incidently happened to be while Emelin wasn't there. Was Price giving 3 goals out of 4 shots before he was pulled was solely because Emelin wasn't there?

In 2011-2012, Emelin missed 15 games. Here's Price stats during some of the games Emelin wasn't there: .889, .955, .967, .929, .971
.857, .906, .903, .920, .946. That wasn't bad was it? And if your point is that it wasn't an extensive miss but more about games here and there during the year....wouldn't you agree that as great a d-man could be, you shouldn't really see how badly you miss a player in the 1st, 2nd or even 3rd game after losing him but mostly on the long run?

Philly was never the same after Pronger left the game. Pronger's last game was November 19th. Well from December 2nd to December 13th, Philly won 6 games in a row. Bryzgalov, a terrible goalie, had during that stretch 3 games under .900 but 3 more than that. And then it went downhill. So why would the loss of Emelin IMMEDIATELY made the Habs a terrible team has to be more than the Emelin loss itself.

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10-12-2013, 09:41 PM
  #673
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Price is following the puck with his eyes tonite.

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10-12-2013, 09:41 PM
  #674
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I did answer. Geez, that's why I said you are not reading. I said tht clearly those 8 games plunge his Save% to the ground. Didn't you not see that? But also said that he had 10 other games where he was below .900. But could it also be a combination of tons of things? Was it solely because Emelin is awesome? Because we don,t have any depth? Because Price was in struggling mode? 'Cause in the process of a 82-game season, you do have bad stretches, from a goalie to a forward...was it Price bad stretch that incidently happened to be while Emelin wasn't there. Was Price giving 3 goals out of 4 shots before he was pulled was solely because Emelin wasn't there?

In 2011-2012, Emelin missed 15 games. Here's Price stats during some of the games Emelin wasn't there: .889, .955, .967, .929, .971
.857, .906, .903, .920, .946. That wasn't bad was it? And if your point is that it wasn't an extensive miss but more about games here and there during the year....wouldn't you agree that as great a d-man could be, you shouldn't really see how badly you miss a player in the 1st, 2nd or even 3rd game after the loss but mostly on the long run?

Philly was never the same after Pronger left the game. Pronger's last game was November 19th. Well from December 2nd to December 13th, Philly won 6 games in a row. Bryzgalov, a terrible goalie, had during that stretch 3 games under .900 but 3 more than that. And then it went downhill. So why would the loss of Emelin IMMEDIATELY made the Habs a terrible team has to be more than the Emelin loss itself.
I didn't ask for that, I asked why the team fell apart on the exact game Emelin got hurt. Provide a hypothesis.

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10-12-2013, 09:53 PM
  #675
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I didn't ask for that, I asked why the team fell apart on the exact game Emelin got hurt. Provide a hypothesis.
'Cause a team gets deflated when they see that their star goalie doesn't come with big saves? Does that ever happen? 'Cause when teams trail 2-1 or 3-1 and play better when they are leading, they don't work as hard. And with really amateurish coaching on top of that, they can't play better. Why is it that I couldn't stop reading how we were the dominating team in the playoffs despite losing? How would you explain that even though we lost Emelin? And frankly....you probably didn't ask for that "that"....but I did give you an answer. Why is it that his loss THEN wasn't that big of a deal and his loss NOW was? And how do you explain losing a player has an IMMEDIATE impact when it's proven that it's not always like that if not almost never?

Here's another hypothesis....how about clinching a playoff spot? We won that Boston game....lost against Washington but won in Buffalo. Then began the descent...and wasn't there a comment from Therrien saying that the guys didn't take the right approach and kinda relaxed right after and that might explained the bad stretch? Could that have applied to Price as well?

Not sure where this is going really now. I gave you the infamous 8 games as a proof of how bad his Save% was. Just not ready to give you the fact that he was fantastic right before and all year as the proofs says he wasn't. What more do you want?

And even with all of this....you said that the team totally was lost without Emelin after his injury. Well we did suffer 3 blowouts. Did score 4 goals against Pittsburgh. Won against TBay, Winnipeg and Toronto. And a close game against Jersey. And a what people say was a dominating performance in the playoffs despite the early exit. So where is the falling apart exactly? In those 3 blowouts? Again, it could be explained by 1000 factors.


Last edited by Whitesnake: 10-12-2013 at 10:02 PM.
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