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The Carey Price Discussion Thread (Part 6)

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Old
10-07-2013, 07:16 PM
  #126
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Not totally. But not as much as people would love to think. I feel like it's just an opinion like we have. It's not because you are a professionnal that you know everything and are always right. Tons of opinions have been said by GM's, coaches and players and we keep dissing them. But then, when it's to praise one of ours, well then, NOW they are right. Fine. But I know that for me, it's just one opinion amongst all the others. Which do mean that he is a name to be mentioned. As even the biggest Price haters would often agree.

You need to stop with this one and only example. So we've seen it...and then we didn't see it as Elliott went right back at sucking last year. Didn't they have the same team? So we see what a great team does to a goalie...but unless there's such bad faith going on...why can't we reverse the role and ALSO acknowledge that a great goalie also improves a team from good to great. Extremely rarely will you see in a Cup finals a non-worthy goalie makes it. Michael Leighton is NOT the norm. Nor is Elliott. Most of the other goalies have proven to be good to great.

Anyway, this is going in circle. Yes, our team isn't stacked on D and we don't have the greatest overall team. But Price HAS to be better. And no matter what WE think, they freakin fired the goalie coach. They themselves said that they hope Price would play better. And Price himself said that he has to play better.

Honestly, everybody agrees, from the haters, to the lovers, to the organization to Price himself.....
As far as the Price discussion goes, you're right it's been there done that...

As for the Elliot example, it's not the only one. It's just the most recent and convenient one to use. Happens all the time. You want another one? Watch Ray Emery's numbers this year. I'm pretty sure he's not going to go 17-1 with a .920+ save percentage.

Then again, maybe the Flyers hire Hitchcock and I'm totally wrong. I'm willing to bet that his numbers take a serious dive this season though. I'd use Tim Thomas as another example but it wouldn't be fair given that he's older and missed last season.

Like I said, big difference between fantasy hockey (numbers only) and reality.

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10-07-2013, 07:32 PM
  #127
Habs Icing
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For all those that are saying that Price plays behind a terrible defence and if he played behind a decent one he would shine, here are some interesting stats from the regular season.

07-08
Price 41 games - 2.56 - 920
Huet 39 games -2.55 - 916

08-09
Price 52 games -2.83 -905
Halak 34 games 2.86 - .899

09-10
Halak 45 games - 2.40 - 924
Price 41 games - 2.77 - 912

10-11
Price 72 games 2.35 - 923
Auld 16 games 2.64 - 914


11-12
Price 65 games 2.43 -916
Budaj 17 games 2.55 -913

12-13
Price 39 games - 2.59 - 905
Budaj 13 games 2.29 - 908

Except for one frigging (10-11) year he has been unable to outplay his backup. They both play behind the same defence yet many here maintain he's a vastly superior goalie so why the phoque is he not outplaying his backups over the years?

I'll admit that the last three years he has played the bulk of the games. I'll give him that but who the hell needs a goalie playing the bulk of the games at an average level - at the level of the backup who we pay a million a year?


Last edited by Habs Icing: 10-07-2013 at 07:38 PM.
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Old
10-07-2013, 07:58 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by onice View Post

Except for one frigging (10-11) year he has been unable to outplay his backup. They both play behind the same defence yet many here maintain he's a vastly superior goalie so why the phoque is he not outplaying his backups over the years?

I'll admit that the last three years he has played the bulk of the games. I'll give him that but who the hell needs a goalie playing the bulk of the games at an average level - at the level of the backup who we pay a million a year?
They will say the backup faced better opponents, better shots, better ice, etc. There's an excuse for everything.

The great thing is if Price plays well this year and in the playoffs, all this talk disappears. That's all he needs to do for the "haters" to go away.

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10-07-2013, 07:59 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
For all those that are saying that Price plays behind a terrible defence and if he played behind a decent one he would shine, here are some interesting stats from the regular season.

07-08
Price 41 games - 2.56 - 920
Huet 39 games -2.55 - 916

08-09
Price 52 games -2.83 -905
Halak 34 games 2.86 - .899

09-10
Halak 45 games - 2.40 - 924
Price 41 games - 2.77 - 912

10-11
Price 72 games 2.35 - 923
Auld 16 games 2.64 - 914


11-12
Price 65 games 2.43 -916
Budaj 17 games 2.55 -913

12-13
Price 39 games - 2.59 - 905
Budaj 13 games 2.29 - 908

Except for one frigging (10-11) year he has been unable to outplay his backup. They both play behind the same defence yet many here maintain he's a vastly superior goalie so why the phoque is he not outplaying his backups over the years?

I'll admit that the last three years he has played the bulk of the games. I'll give him that but who the hell needs a goalie playing the bulk of the games at an average level - at the level of the backup who we pay a million a year?
Go look at Roy vs Hayward (I haven't btw) and I'll bet you that his numbers will be very close to Roy's in the late 80s.

And actually you're kind of proving my point here. Go look at Emery vs Crawford or Rask vs Thomas... their numbers will be very good because they play on good teams. It's not always like this but I'd be willing to guess that it's like that more often than not.

And Price is playing 65-70 games a year. Big difference dude.

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Old
10-07-2013, 08:03 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
They will say the backup faced better opponents, better shots, better ice, etc. There's an excuse for everything.

The great thing is if Price plays well this year and in the playoffs, all this talk disappears. That's all he needs to do for the "haters" to go away.
Just looked it up. As I suspected Hayward is very close to Roy. Thomas and Rask are both wicked. Crawford and Emery same thing...

And unlike these cases Price is logging a hell of a lot heavier workload.

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10-07-2013, 08:37 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Just looked it up. As I suspected Hayward is very close to Roy. Thomas and Rask are both wicked. Crawford and Emery same thing...

And unlike these cases Price is logging a hell of a lot heavier workload.
Rask and Thomas are both excellent goalies. Neither are backup caliber. Same for Crawford and Emery...both good, starting caliber goalies.

Patrick Roy outplayed Hayward. Go look at the numbers, review the tape..... Just shows how far you'll go to protect Price. Saying Hayward was close to Roy. Joke of the day.

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10-07-2013, 08:58 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Rask and Thomas are both excellent goalies. Neither are backup caliber. Same for Crawford and Emery...both good, starting caliber goalies.
Emery is a journeyman hockey player... Huet has a better resume than he does. And how do you explain Brian Elliot having one of the best seasons of all time? Huet is crap? But Emery and Elliot are awesome? Okay...

BTW, go back and look at Budaj's numbers. Go YEAR BY YEAR on the teams he's on. Compare him to his competition. His numbers are strikingly similar to whoever he's paired with. Sometimes he's the starter and sometimes he's the backup but the numbers are similar almost every year. So it's not just applicable for elite goalies.

Your example STRENGTHENS my argument, it doesn't weaken it. Team D has a huge effect on goalie stats. So thanks for bringing this up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Patrick Roy outplayed Hayward. Go look at the numbers, review the tape..... Just shows how far you'll go to protect Price.
Patrick Roy and Hayward had close to identical numbers. Isnt' that all that matters?

I thought that was all that matters here. The NHL coaches opinions don't matter. The players don't matter. Crosby doesn't matter...

I guess it only applies when you want it to right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Saying Hayward was close to Roy.
I said his numbers were close... and they are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Joke of the day.
Joke of the day is you sitting here and denying what I just showed you.

Rather than acknowledge the point (an argument onice brought up) you just come here with a strawman like "hahahaha you think Hayward is as good as Roy."

Stop wasting my time with this crap. I came back here because I thought it was an interesting argument to make so I decided to take you up on it. I think my response is actually a pretty good one and it completely backs up what Iv'e been saying that the team has a dramatic effect on a goalie's numbers.

But it's pretty clear you're going to just close your eyes on this and dig your heels in. Okay, go ahead. Once again, I'll leave you to carry on here.

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10-07-2013, 10:06 PM
  #133
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Roy and Heyward never had close to identical numbers. You sound ridiculous.

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10-07-2013, 10:12 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Roy and Heyward never had close to identical numbers. You sound ridiculous.
I recall AT LEAST one season where Roy was yanked in favor of Hayward in the playoffs. Not for one game. For many games. In fact, Hayward repeated for years that he should have been the number one in Montreal, that he should have had his chance. He was very critical of Roy. Didn't like him much.

And Roy didn't have the best seasons after his first cup. Don't look at the numbers. Look at his performances circa 87-88 in the playoffs. Not very good. He was Boston's ******. He lost some goaltending battles against Moog and Lemelin.

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10-07-2013, 10:18 PM
  #135
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130 post in a day about Carey Price!

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Old
10-07-2013, 10:28 PM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Roy and Heyward never had close to identical numbers. You sound ridiculous.
86-87 Roy 2.93 Hayward 2.81
87-88 Roy 2.90 Hayward 2.86

Really ridiculous, eh

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10-07-2013, 10:31 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
For all those that are saying that Price plays behind a terrible defence and if he played behind a decent one he would shine, here are some interesting stats from the regular season.

07-08
Price 41 games - 2.56 - 920
Huet 39 games -2.55 - 916

08-09
Price 52 games -2.83 -905
Halak 34 games 2.86 - .899

09-10
Halak 45 games - 2.40 - 924
Price 41 games - 2.77 - 912

10-11
Price 72 games 2.35 - 923
Auld 16 games 2.64 - 914


11-12
Price 65 games 2.43 -916
Budaj 17 games 2.55 -913

12-13
Price 39 games - 2.59 - 905
Budaj 13 games 2.29 - 908

Except for one frigging (10-11) year he has been unable to outplay his backup. They both play behind the same defence yet many here maintain he's a vastly superior goalie so why the phoque is he not outplaying his backups over the years?

I'll admit that the last three years he has played the bulk of the games. I'll give him that but who the hell needs a goalie playing the bulk of the games at an average level - at the level of the backup who we pay a million a year?
Frankly, I find it silly that you are comparing Price's statistics to his backup goaltenders. For one, he DID outplay his backups in every year, because he has the better SV% in almost every single comparison. For another, because backup goaltenders often have the weaker opponents, and finally because you are actually comparing a rookie goaltender's numbers to goalies that were/are currently starters in the NHL (Huet and Halak).

So I'm guessing you're going to choose to ignore that:

1. Price was 20 years old when he played his first season as a starting goalie.

2. Price's numbers are actually on par with elite goalies in the league, excluding Lundqvist.

Fact is, Price has great numbers (comparable to the league's top goalies like Rinne and Quick), is one of the youngest starters in the league, and already has so much experience (Price has more games played than Rinne and Quick). Price has proven he is probably one of the 3 most valuable goaltenders in the league for these reasons alone, and it's quite obvious he has proven he is an effective starter and can steal games for his team.

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10-07-2013, 10:33 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Roy and Heyward never had close to identical numbers. You sound ridiculous.
Yeah... he never had identical numbers... stop wasting everyone's time.

Save percentage and year:

87 roy 892 hayward 894
88 roy 900* hayward 896
89 roy 908* hayward 887
90 roy 912* hayward 878

87 Hayward is better
88 Roy leads the league
88 Hayward has the 3rd best save percentage in the league and a better GAA than Roy.
89 Roy leads the league

Hayward is close to identical or better (than the best goalie in the league) for two seasons and then gets assigned as the road goalie and eventually asks for a trade. And we're comparing Brian Hayward to the best goalie in the league and one of the best all-time.

Looks pretty similar to Price vs his backups actually over the past three years. Price is way ahead in one season out of three... For some reason though, that means he's no better than his backup. Nevermind that (unlike Roy) the guy is playing 70 games.

And again, go look at Budaj year by year. Most seasons close to identical to the different goalies he's paired with. Sometimes he's the starter and sometimes he's not. But the numbers are usually (not always) close.

Stop fighting for the sake of it, stop saying others are ridiculous when you don't know what you're talking about.

I think I'm just not even going to open this thread for a while.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 10-07-2013 at 10:47 PM.
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Old
10-07-2013, 10:43 PM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Roy and Heyward never had close to identical numbers. You sound ridiculous.
they did in 86-87 and 87-88. Hayward even had better save pct and better gaa than roy's in 86-87. His gaa was better than roy's in 87-88.

I don't know how you can say someone sounds ridiculous when you obviously don't know what you're talking about.

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10-07-2013, 10:47 PM
  #140
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Budaj in two seasons with the Habs hasn't even played as many games as Price played last year. Such a small sample size of 30 games. They're not even all starts.

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10-07-2013, 10:54 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by 25th View Post
130 post in a day about Carey Price!
I don't think I'm even going to open this thread for the next two days. No discussion, just some folks digging in their heels...

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10-07-2013, 10:57 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
Frankly, I find it silly that you are comparing Price's statistics to his backup goaltenders. For one, he DID outplay his backups in every year, because he has the better SV% in almost every single comparison. For another, because backup goaltenders often have the weaker opponents, and finally because you are actually comparing a rookie goaltender's numbers to goalies that were/are currently starters in the NHL (Huet and Halak).
Firstly, You may have forgotten your high school math so allow me to remind you that a difference of 2 or 3 or even 4 hundredths of a goal is called scraping the bottom of the excuse barrel. Except for one year the difference is so small it's statistically insignificant.

Secondly, Halak was also a rookie or are you too young to go that far back and Huet had two decent half seasons and was chased out of the league. Yeah Huet was barely an NHL goalie let alone a decent starting one.

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10-07-2013, 11:13 PM
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
Firstly, You may have forgotten your high school math so allow me to remind you that a difference of 2 or 3 or even 4 hundredths of a goal is called scraping the bottom of the excuse barrel. Except for one year the difference is so small it's statistically insignificant.

Secondly, Halak was also a rookie or are you too young to go that far back and Huet had two decent half seasons and was chased out of the league. Yeah Huet was barely an NHL goalie let alone a decent starting one.
Halak played 16 games with the Habs in 2006-2007.

Carey Price began his career in 2007-2008.

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10-07-2013, 11:14 PM
  #144
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It's absurd to compare Price's stats with those of his backups. What would we see if Budaj or Halak played 70+ games? We know that neither of them would hold up. At one time Budaj was a #1 but was dumped.

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10-07-2013, 11:19 PM
  #145
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So what I am getting is when the detractors use stats against Price when people bring up some of the subjective stats like scoring chances, defense and quality of opponents. But when the stats show the for the majority of years Price puts up better numbers compared to his backups, Stats are now insiginificant

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10-07-2013, 11:28 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Treb View Post
86-87 Roy 2.93 Hayward 2.81
87-88 Roy 2.90 Hayward 2.86

Really ridiculous, eh
way to cherry pick! Why no save percentage or other stats? Why didn't you include more years? I know why..... Too many straw mens and hyperbole to deal with...toodles.


Last edited by hockeyfan2k11: 10-07-2013 at 11:35 PM.
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10-07-2013, 11:32 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Yeah... he never had identical numbers... stop wasting everyone's time.

Save percentage and year:

87 roy 892 hayward 894
88 roy 900* hayward 896
89 roy 908* hayward 887
90 roy 912* hayward 878

87 Hayward is better
88 Roy leads the league
88 Hayward has the 3rd best save percentage in the league and a better GAA than Roy.
89 Roy leads the league

Hayward is close to identical or better (than the best goalie in the league) for two seasons and then gets assigned as the road goalie and eventually asks for a trade. And we're comparing Brian Hayward to the best goalie in the league and one of the best all-time.

Looks pretty similar to Price vs his backups actually over the past three years. Price is way ahead in one season out of three... For some reason though, that means he's no better than his backup. Nevermind that (unlike Roy) the guy is playing 70 games.

And again, go look at Budaj year by year. Most seasons close to identical to the different goalies he's paired with. Sometimes he's the starter and sometimes he's not. But the numbers are usually (not always) close.

Stop fighting for the sake of it, stop saying others are ridiculous when you don't know what you're talking about.

I think I'm just not even going to open this thread for a while.
Price > Roy

I'm done with this conversation....at least for a while. The goal posts get moved with every post.

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10-07-2013, 11:32 PM
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
way to cherry pick! Why no save percentage or other stats? Why didn't you include more years? I know why.....
Lafleur's guy already posted.

Quote:
87 roy 892 hayward 894
88 roy 900* hayward 896
89 roy 908* hayward 887
90 roy 912* hayward 878

87 Hayward is better
88 Roy leads the league
88 Hayward has the 3rd best save percentage in the league and a better GAA than Roy.
89 Roy leads the league

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10-07-2013, 11:33 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Price > Roy
Yes, that is what he said.

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10-08-2013, 12:25 AM
  #150
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to all price haters:

price isnt going anywhere. hes our starting goalie. if you dont like it well too friggen bad. hes here to stay so just support him because hes the starting goalie of the team you love(supposedly).

p.s: watch other goalies around the league, watch the goals they let in, and youll see, price isnt at all as bad so you say he is, on the contrary, hes a fine goalie. im glad he plays on our team.

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