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Montreal Dream Team vs. Team Russia Dream Team

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Old
10-07-2013, 07:37 PM
  #26
Zine
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Strange poll.

For the most part it's pre-1970s players (Montreal) vs 1970s and later players (Russia).

Considering, there are just too many variables involved to make an accurate comparison.

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10-07-2013, 07:44 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kshahdoo View Post
It took 2 all time greatest Canada players to beat Soviet team in 1987, and even then KLM line made players like Mark Messier looked as 2nd tier grinders. And I doubt anyone aside from Krutov - Larionov - Makarov Fetisov - Kasatonov could make all time Soviet/Russian team from that Soviet roster. I mean KLM and Mikhailov - Petrov - Kharlamov lines would be enough to tear up anything Montreal could ice.
(MOD) You obviously have no idea, or have never seen Maurice Richard, Jean Beliveau, Doug Harvey etc play Hockey. An all time Montreal club can challenge and contend to win versus any national team, the aura of this club is such.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 10-07-2013 at 08:05 PM. Reason: not necessary
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10-07-2013, 08:27 PM
  #28
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I think you have to put Shutt on the bench for Montreal and use him on the pp. That goal he scored on NYE 1975 was a beauty. Plus he scored 2 in the 79 NYE game.

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10-07-2013, 08:33 PM
  #29
Sprague Cleghorn
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Originally Posted by Kshahdoo View Post
Well, Soviet hockey always had great wingers. I mean Ovi got no chances in competition vs players like Yakushev and Firsov. They were as skilled as Ovechkin but 10 times better as teamplayers. Don't forget we're talking about Soviet hockey where team play was above all.

And I'm not honestly sure about Malkin. First two lines would be KLM and Mikhailov - Petrov - Kharlamov. Bure - Fedorov - Mogilny would be the 3rd. And then I'm not sure Geno would be better than Maltsev.
You said Ovechkin, a winner of 3x Harts, 3x Pearsons, 1x Art Ross, 3x Richards, 6x 1st All-Star Teams, 2x 2nd All-Star Teams, and the record holder for most goals scored by a LW in a season does not make the team, yet Alexander Mogilny member of only 2x 2nd All Star Teams, and 1x leading goal scorer makes the team? (the guy won a SC with NJ in 2000 but as a passenger only).

Makes sense.

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10-08-2013, 03:05 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
You think that Ovechkin, who was declared the best player in the modern NHL - an NHL containing all the best players in the world - 4 times by either the players or writers - has "no chance" against someone like Yakushev, who never once won Soviet Player of the Year award (and never finished 2nd)? You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but it really strains your credibility.
You mean Yakushev who scored 339 goals in 568 games playing not on CSKA and won soviet scoring title 3 times? And scored the most for the soviet team in Summit 72? Yes, I think Ovi wouldn't have a chance. I'd pick Yakushev for that the 3-4 line duties over Ovechkin 10 times out of 10.

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10-08-2013, 03:08 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Jimi Hendrix View Post
You said Ovechkin, a winner of 3x Harts, 3x Pearsons, 1x Art Ross, 3x Richards, 6x 1st All-Star Teams, 2x 2nd All-Star Teams, and the record holder for most goals scored by a LW in a season does not make the team, yet Alexander Mogilny member of only 2x 2nd All Star Teams, and 1x leading goal scorer makes the team? (the guy won a SC with NJ in 2000 but as a passenger only).

Makes sense.
Mogilny got chemestry with Bure and Fedorov. They played together since being kids. Sure I'd pick him over Ovi.

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10-08-2013, 03:08 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kshahdoo View Post
You mean Yakushev who scored 339 goals in 568 games playing not on CSKA and won soviet scoring title 3 times? And scored the most for the soviet team in Summit 72? Yes, I think Ovi wouldn't have a chance. I'd pick Yakushev for that the 3-4 line duties over Ovechkin 10 times out of 10.
As far as I am aware, 1968-69 was Yakushev's only scoring title.

Edit, and by "as far as I am aware," I mean according to the most widely available statistics.

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10-08-2013, 03:11 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Kshahdoo View Post
Mogilny got chemestry with Bure and Fedorov. They played together since being kids. Sure I'd pick him over Ovi.
Heh, Ovechkin finished 7th in scoring in 2010-11. It was considered a bad season for him. Mogilny finished 7th in the best season of his career.

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10-08-2013, 03:13 AM
  #34
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I'd certainly love to see this (hypothetical) Super Series, but possibly Montreal's edge in defense/defensive play, shooting and all-around play(ers) would be too much for the Soviets.

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10-08-2013, 03:22 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
I'd certainly love to see this (hypothetical) Super Series, but possibly Montreal's edge in defense/defensive play, shooting and all-around play(ers) would be too much for the Soviets.
Alright, let's see

Fetisov - Kasatonov
Vasiliev - Pervukhin
Lutchenko - Thygankov
Konstantinov

You think ANY defense in hockey history would have edge in defensive play before these guys? I highly doubt. The only player who could change something would be Orr in his prime. But as far as I remember he never played for Montreal.

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10-08-2013, 03:39 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
As far as I am aware, 1968-69 was Yakushev's only scoring title.

Edit, and by "as far as I am aware," I mean according to the most widely available statistics.
Yeah, my bad, it wasn't scoring titles but goals scored. He did it 3 times - the most in Soviet history along with Krutov and Makarov. And Yakushev led Spartak to 2 champion titles. Considering what CSKA was in Soviet hockey, you can't say it was nothing especial.

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10-08-2013, 03:43 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Kshahdoo View Post
Alright, let's see

Fetisov - Kasatonov
Vasiliev - Pervukhin
Lutchenko - Thygankov
Konstantinov

You think ANY defense in hockey history would have edge in defensive play before these guys? I highly doubt. The only player who could change something would be Orr in his prime. But as far as I remember he never played for Montreal.
Maybe I should have said 'defensive depth', but here goes...

The Soviet defense in the 1970s SUCKED (except in 1978-79). That's right. Look at the 1972 Summit Series, for example; Team Canada won it on grit and better defense (and by taking out USSR's best forward, but let's not get into that now); even guys like Gary Bergman and Bill White were better and more reliable than the best Soviet d-men in the Series. Vasiliev was certainly better than either of them in the long run, but he was young in 1972.

Fetisov and Kasatonov were brilliant, as was Vasiliev. After that, a huge drop. So yes, IMO defensively Montreal's dream team would be at least as good on top and would have clearly more depth below.

Edit:
Forgot about Ragulin; he wasn't in his prime anymore in 1972. He was certainly as strong as they come, but still a slight question mark. Guys like Sologubov and Davydov are also big "what ifs"...

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10-08-2013, 03:49 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Kshahdoo View Post
Alright, let's see

Fetisov - Kasatonov
Vasiliev - Pervukhin
Lutchenko - Thygankov
Konstantinov

You think ANY defense in hockey history would have edge in defensive play before these guys? I highly doubt. The only player who could change something would be Orr in his prime. But as far as I remember he never played for Montreal.

What? No Ragulin or Sologubov?

Fetisov - Kasatonov
Ragulin - Vasiliev
Sologubov - Konstantinov
(Zubov, Lutchenko, Davydov)



Quote:
Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
Edit:
Forgot about Ragulin; he wasn't in his prime anymore in 1972. He was certainly as strong as they come, but still a slight question mark. Guys like Sologubov and Davydov are also big "what ifs"...

I'm not so sure.

An old and decrepit Ragulin kept a prime Esposito (NHL leading scorer) relatively in check in 1972.
Espo stats:
7pts in 6 gms when facing Ragulin
6 pts in 2 gms when Ragulin didn't play

And following the 1956 olympics, Foster Hewitt (HNIC) said that Sologubov was "the best 2-way defenceman I have seen in a long time".


Last edited by Zine: 10-08-2013 at 04:06 AM.
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Old
10-08-2013, 04:13 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
Maybe I should have said 'defensive depth', but here goes...

The Soviet defense in the 1970s SUCKED (except in 1978-79). That's right. Look at the 1972 Summit Series, for example; Team Canada won it on grit and better defense (and by taking out USSR's best forward, but let's not get into that now); even guys like Gary Bergman and Bill White were better and more reliable than the best Soviet d-men in the Series. Vasiliev was certainly better than either of them in the long run, but he was young in 1972.

Fetisov and Kasatonov were brilliant, as was Vasiliev. After that, a huge drop. So yes, IMO defensively Montreal's dream team would be at least as good on top and would have clearly more depth below.

Edit:
Forgot about Ragulin; he wasn't in his prime anymore in 1972. He was certainly as strong as they come, but still a slight question mark. Guys like Sologubov and Davydov are also big "what ifs"...
I'd say the biggest "what ifs" was Konstantinov. Nobody knows how good he could be. And I used actual pairing of players who played vs the best NHL players. Vasiliev and Pervukhin was a great pair. One was very tough and the other was very smart. And Pervukhin played in Challenge Cup and Canada Cup 81, when Soviet defense didn't suck to say the least.

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10-08-2013, 04:52 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
I'm not so sure.

An old and decrepit Ragulin kept a prime Esposito (NHL leading scorer) relatively in check in 1972.
Espo stats:
7pts in 6 gms when facing Ragulin
6 pts in 2 gms when Ragulin didn't play
Interesting stats, but is there such a clear connection, what do you think? It looked to me that Esposito was playing his best hockey of the series in the last two or three games - e.g. scoring two goals in game 7 when Ragulin played - and I don't know if Ragulin would have been able to stop his 4-point night in game 8. It's always possible, I guess. Even though I have seen the 1972 games many times, I haven't concentrated that much on the 'battle of two huge bears'.

Montreal wouldn't have Esposito, but how would a prime Ragulin do against speedsters like Lafleur?

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10-08-2013, 05:06 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Kshahdoo View Post
And Pervukhin played in Challenge Cup and Canada Cup 81, when Soviet defense didn't suck to say the least.
It didn't and that's why I excluded 1978-79. Allowing the NHL All-Stars only 16 shots in game 2 and only a couple of true scoring chances in game 3 deserves some credit. Also, e.g. Czechoslovakia managed to score only 2 goals in 2 games vs. USSR in the 1979 World Championships.
But that is basically the only, er, period, when I've been impressed by the Soviet defense in the 1970s. 1980s was generally much better IMO, but outside Fetisov and Kasatonov, it's quite hard to single out any defensemen; Bilyaletdinov was good, Pervukhin was good, Babinov was good, Starikov was okay etc...

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10-08-2013, 08:40 AM
  #42
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Russian forward lines:

KLM
KPM
Bure-Feds-Yakushev
Ovy-Dats-Malkin
Firsov

That would give Montreal some problems but, again, the Habs' D is miles better than the Russian. After F-K and Ragulin there is a big drop. Vasyliev and Bilyaletdinov were solid but not on par with Habs best. Konstantinov never in fact proved himself and was prone to major brainfarts.

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10-08-2013, 08:42 AM
  #43
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It's the Russian team and not even close, in an actual game, based on the names used.... Simply because more than half of that team's players are from the 80's and on, Montreal oldtimers simply would not match the speed.

If we are comparing dominance of the lines discounted for the era - then it is a diff story likely.

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10-08-2013, 08:49 AM
  #44
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Yes, in this kind of comparison the common approach is based on the peer-to-peer accomplishments. Otherwise it's feasible to say that Columbus 2013 will win over Montreal 1957 (equipment notwithstanding). Although I'm sure Beliveau et al would adjust quickly, the physicality aspect would probably prevail in the end.

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10-08-2013, 08:51 AM
  #45
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Otherwise it's feasible to say that Columbus 2013 will win over Montreal 1957
I am pretty sure that's the case

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10-08-2013, 08:53 AM
  #46
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And there's the issue of ice, and the rules...etc. In fact most NA fans saw the Russian defence on small ice. I wonder how would the great Montreal d-men look on big ice?

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10-08-2013, 09:15 AM
  #47
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And there's the issue of ice, and the rules...etc. In fact most NA fans saw the Russian defence on small ice. I wonder how would the great Montreal d-men look on big ice?
Given how well Team Canada's defense played in the second half of the 1972 series, I daresay Robinson et al would do just fine.

Habs D is just better than the Russian, AINEC.

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10-09-2013, 01:51 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
That would give Montreal some problems but, again, the Habs' D is miles better than the Russian. After F-K and Ragulin there is a big drop. Vasyliev and Bilyaletdinov were solid but not on par with Habs best. Konstantinov never in fact proved himself and was prone to major brainfarts.
Vasiliev >> Ragulin

But carry on

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10-09-2013, 08:15 AM
  #49
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Vasiliev >> Ragulin

But carry on
Whatever, but carry on

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10-09-2013, 09:32 AM
  #50
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Admittedly, I'm still learning about a lot of the older Soviet/Russian players, teams, etc. but from what I do know I would go with:

Kharlamov Petrov Mikhailov
Krutov Larionov Makarov
Mogilny Fedorov Bure
Ovechkin Datsyuk Malkin

Fetisov Kasatonov
Kasparaitis Konstantinov
Vasiliev Zubov

Tretiak
Nabokov

I know there are other greats like Firsov and Maltsev, but like I said, this is based on guys I know a bit more about. If it's limited to a strictly Russian team, then I'd have to drop Kasparaitis. I guess Gonchar would be an ample replacement (though that would be a trade of defense for offense).

(Hmm... I just noticed my forward lines are very similar to the ones Sentinel picked...)

Edit: I just found this cool site: http://http://www.chidlovski.net/195...tal_GP&topn=25


Last edited by RockemSockemProberts: 10-09-2013 at 09:42 AM.
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