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Old
10-07-2013, 03:34 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
No thanks to Moen or White.

Counter,


You get Clifford

We get a 2nd an a 4rth in 14 and a 2nd in 15.
I think that's way too much, one second should get it done

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10-07-2013, 03:35 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Black1963 View Post
I can see some teams giving up a two 2nds for a Toffoli or a Pearson, but a two 2nds AND a 4th for a Clifford???
I'm guessing what they meant was a 4th in 2014 and a 2nd in 2015. They worded it odd.

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10-07-2013, 03:42 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Black1963 View Post
Clifford is our 4th liner who can easily be replaced by Carcillo or King. I think you overvalue Clifford quite a bit.
It just doesn't make sense to bring in a pick for him (unless it is overpayment like the 2 2nds which wouldn't happen). I would prefer to package him with someone else to get an upgrade current roster player. That is all.

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10-07-2013, 03:43 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Black1963 View Post
Clifford is our 4th liner who can easily be replaced by Carcillo or King. I think you overvalue Clifford quite a bit.
I think you under estimate clifford who plays a physical game. He was 5 th in the league in hits we are a physical team Your the one underesmateing by alot.

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10-07-2013, 03:50 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odishabs View Post
Moen(500k retained)/White
A 3rd round pick
A 4th round pick

for

Clifford
4th round pick
It's the same pitch again and again, a similar but older and likely less talented player and a lower level draft pick. Why wouldn't we just keep Clifford and ice a better team because of it?

Think about it from LA's side as well.

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10-07-2013, 03:55 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Elvis View Post
I'm guessing what they meant was a 4th in 2014 and a 2nd in 2015. They worded it odd.
I'm pretty certain he meant what he wrote, but feel free to double check.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perro View Post
It just doesn't make sense to bring in a pick for him (unless it is overpayment like the 2 2nds which wouldn't happen). I would prefer to package him with someone else to get an upgrade current roster player. That is all.
While I don't disagree with trading quantity for quality, I don't see a problem trading for a pick. Who's to say that Lombardi won't use pick at the deadline to upgrade our team? And even if he didn't we have others that can fulfill his spot.

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Originally Posted by KingCanadain1976 View Post
I think you under estimate clifford who plays a physical game. He was 5 th in the league in hits we are a physical team Your the one underesmateing by alot.
Nah. If you read kings posters' response to Clifford's worth, large majority would say he's worth around a 2nd. Only a handful of you guys have an unrealistic return for him.

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10-07-2013, 04:09 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black1963 View Post
I'm pretty certain he meant what he wrote, but feel free to double check.



While I don't disagree with trading quantity for quality, I don't see a problem trading for a pick. Who's to say that Lombardi won't use pick at the deadline to upgrade our team? And even if he didn't we have others that can fulfill his spot.



Nah. If you read kings posters' response to Clifford's worth, large majority would say he's worth around a 2nd. Only a handful of you guys have an unrealistic return for him.
I think that a 2nd is fair value. Just not the right time.
Something like Williams + Clifford for a top 2 LW is what I would love to see happen. It would open a top RW spot for Toffoli and give us the LW we need.


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10-07-2013, 04:19 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by KingKopitar11 View Post
2 second round picks and a fourth? Seems like a massive overpayment imo
Clifford is a 22yo who has a cup ring and 4 years of steady NHL experience. He was 5th in hits and isn't afraid to drop the gloves. The reason that teams were interested (are) in him is that he has allot of upside and plays very hard.

He was a 2nd rd pick who now knows what it takes to win a cup and a few years experience. I for one wouldn't want to move him but rather would like to see him given a full season on the 3rd line to allow him to develop his scoring with the same line mates and believe that this is his big step forward season if we allow him to do so.

So we have spent time and money developing a kid who is turning into a solid gritty 3rd line with some size and a mean streak, I want 2 2nds and then something to kick me over the top forcing me to make the deal.

If the 4rth is a 5th then I could deal with that but I wouldn't take any less than 2 seconds or a 2nd a 3rd and a 4rth for him.

Now, would we get that on offer? Tough to say but that doesn't matter to me. To me that is what it would take for me to even consider moving him at this point.

It is an overpayment you are right but that is what it would take to move Clifford at this point imo but I am not very adept at estimating player values to other teams. I can tell you with great accuracy who has the best chance of making the NHL and what they are likely to do once they get there but what their value to another team might be isn't a strong suit of mine at all.

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10-07-2013, 04:29 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Clifford is a 22yo who has a cup ring and 4 years of steady NHL experience. He was 5th in hits and isn't afraid to drop the gloves. The reason that teams were interested (are) in him is that he has allot of upside and plays very hard.

He was a 2nd rd pick who now knows what it takes to win a cup and a few years experience. I for one wouldn't want to move him but rather would like to see him given a full season on the 3rd line to allow him to develop his scoring with the same line mates and believe that this is his big step forward season if we allow him to do so.

So we have spent time and money developing a kid who is turning into a solid gritty 3rd line with some size and a mean streak, I want 2 2nds and then something to kick me over the top forcing me to make the deal.

If the 4rth is a 5th then I could deal with that but I wouldn't take any less than 2 seconds or a 2nd a 3rd and a 4rth for him.

Now, would we get that on offer? Tough to say but that doesn't matter to me. To me that is what it would take for me to even consider moving him at this point.

It is an overpayment you are right but that is what it would take to move Clifford at this point imo but I am not very adept at estimating player values to other teams. I can tell you with great accuracy who has the best chance of making the NHL and what they are likely to do once they get there but what their value to another team might be isn't a strong suit of mine at all.
You're basically saying he has similar trade value as Bernier, and that's not happening.

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10-07-2013, 04:31 PM
  #35
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Clifford is physical, I get it, but he has a scoring touch, but it's so inconsistent and his discipline isn't too hot. I'd move Clifford for a second to get a prospect that has a better scoring touch rather than grit.

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10-07-2013, 04:56 PM
  #36
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We all can picture Clifford as a 15+ goal guy, we also know how he drops the groves too. Not a long career ahead of him if he continues to fight that way. Do you hold onto him in hopes he reaches that 15G or move him before he eats another fist?
I'd hate to move him too quickly. The price would have to be based on his potential, which is high IMO.

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10-07-2013, 05:06 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black1963 View Post
You're basically saying he has similar trade value as Bernier, and that's not happening.
Im not though. I am not suggesting that MTL gives us $750k of cap relief, a 1st and a 2nd (Frattin was highly valued and Scrivens wasn't a throw in either). I am saying two seconds and a mid pick is what it would take for us to consider moving Clifford all things considered.

The first or equal value is an entirely different thing.

We aren't looking to move Clifford at this time so there isn't any way of knowing rather or not it could happen. I still say that what I am proposing or a similar value is what it would take to get us to make the move give or take a little but like I said I am not great at evaluating trade deals/proposals.

That is my point.


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10-07-2013, 05:12 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Clifford is a 22yo who has a cup ring and 4 years of steady NHL experience. He was 5th in hits and isn't afraid to drop the gloves. The reason that teams were interested (are) in him is that he has allot of upside and plays very hard.

He was a 2nd rd pick who now knows what it takes to win a cup and a few years experience. I for one wouldn't want to move him but rather would like to see him given a full season on the 3rd line to allow him to develop his scoring with the same line mates and believe that this is his big step forward season if we allow him to do so.

So we have spent time and money developing a kid who is turning into a solid gritty 3rd line with some size and a mean streak, I want 2 2nds and then something to kick me over the top forcing me to make the deal.

If the 4rth is a 5th then I could deal with that but I wouldn't take any less than 2 seconds or a 2nd a 3rd and a 4rth for him.

Now, would we get that on offer? Tough to say but that doesn't matter to me. To me that is what it would take for me to even consider moving him at this point.

It is an overpayment you are right but that is what it would take to move Clifford at this point imo but I am not very adept at estimating player values to other teams. I can tell you with great accuracy who has the best chance of making the NHL and what they are likely to do once they get there but what their value to another team might be isn't a strong suit of mine at all.
ty tg for posting this i was kinda feeling like i was the only one valueing KC right. He totally plays kings hockey and i feel hes one of the most under rated king. I can't belive people thinking King is a better player. King will never be a top 5 anything in the nhl We need clifford alot more then king as we play a phyiscal wear the other team down game Clifford does this King doesn't. I totally agree with what you posted.

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10-07-2013, 08:07 PM
  #39
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Honestly for Clifford to become the real good 3rd line wing he was supposed to be he should have been playing in manchester. His rookie season everyone was enamored with how NHL ready he seemed, but the truth is it was just his fighting ability that was nhl ready.

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10-08-2013, 12:43 AM
  #40
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Honestly for Clifford to become the real good 3rd line wing he was supposed to be he should have been playing in manchester. His rookie season everyone was enamored with how NHL ready he seemed, but the truth is it was just his fighting ability that was nhl ready.
I agree with this.

In fact, Clifford, himself said after a handful of games with the 'narchs that he needed to work on his game during the offseason in order to compete in manchester. However, I guess DL felt the need to bring him up early and therefore, Clifford has never had the chance to develop like he should have.

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10-08-2013, 01:04 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Black1963 View Post
I'm pretty certain he meant what he wrote, but feel free to double check.



While I don't disagree with trading quantity for quality, I don't see a problem trading for a pick. Who's to say that Lombardi won't use pick at the deadline to upgrade our team? And even if he didn't we have others that can fulfill his spot.



Nah. If you read kings posters' response to Clifford's worth, large majority would say he's worth around a 2nd. Only a handful of you guys have an unrealistic return for him.
A draft pick at the deadline is almost worthless. Look at Robyn Regehr. It cost us 2 2nds to rent him (we extended his contract a month or two after we got him). Would you have traded Clifford plus a 2nd for Regehr, because basically that's how it'd have worked out if you traded Clifford for a 2nd, then traded that 2nd at the deadline.

You want to trade Clifford for just picks, you trade him at the deadline. He'd fetch 2 2nds then.

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10-08-2013, 01:09 AM
  #42
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A draft pick at the deadline is almost worthless. Look at Robyn Regehr. It cost us 2 2nds to rent him (we extended his contract a month or two after we got him). Would you have traded Clifford plus a 2nd for Regehr, because basically that's how it'd have worked out if you traded Clifford for a 2nd, then traded that 2nd at the deadline.

You want to trade Clifford for just picks, you trade him at the deadline. He'd fetch 2 2nds then.
Nobody in their right mind will pay two 2nds for Clifford, not even at the trade deadline. I'm fine with moving Clifford for picks, because this opens up a spot for Pearson and we get a pick that can be used later. It's a win/win the way I see it.

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10-08-2013, 01:18 AM
  #43
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Nobody in their right mind will pay two 2nds for Clifford, not even at the trade deadline. I'm fine with moving Clifford for picks, because this opens up a spot for Pearson and we get a pick that can be used later. It's a win/win the way I see it.
Agree to disagree then. How a rental D man is worth 2 2nds but a young kid with upside like Clifford isn't at the trade deadline is something I don't get.

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10-08-2013, 01:25 AM
  #44
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Agree to disagree then. How a rental D man is worth 2 2nds but a young kid with upside like Clifford isn't at the trade deadline is something I don't get.
Supply and demand.

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10-08-2013, 01:28 AM
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Supply and demand.
Which would imply there's no demand for a guy like Clifford. And that's completely inaccurate.

Guys like Clifford are just as rare as guys like Regehr.

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10-08-2013, 01:34 AM
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Which would imply there's no demand for a guy like Clifford. And that's completely inaccurate.

Guys like Clifford are just as rare as guys like Regehr.
What I'm saying is that kings were in dire need of a SAH dman and they had to overpay to land RR.

As for Clifford, I just don't know what kind of upside he has. He MAY develop into a 15 goal scorer/checker, but he's basically just a 4th liner who has suffered 2 concussions and is fighting less and often losing fights.

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10-08-2013, 01:52 AM
  #47
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What I'm saying is that kings were in dire need of a SAH dman and they had to overpay to land RR.

As for Clifford, I just don't know what kind of upside he has. He MAY develop into a 15 goal scorer/checker, but he's basically just a 4th liner who has suffered 2 concussions and is fighting less and often losing fights.
He's a 3rd liner, and he's one on LA, which is a very deep team.

Cal Clutterbuck came off a four goal season and he fetched a high end prospect in Nino Nidierreitter. Nedierreitter might not be worth the 5th overall pick he was selected at, but he's definately worth a pair of seconds. And Clifford outproduced Clutterbauck last year, has a much lower cap hit and is younger.

A middleweight that can play is rare, even moreso than a solid stay at home D man. Clifford would fecth a very solid return. If you think he'd only return what we used to draft him, I think your value system is a bit off.

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10-08-2013, 01:54 AM
  #48
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He's a 3rd liner, and he's one on LA, which is a very deep team.

Cal Clutterbuck came off a four goal season and he fetched a high end prospect in Nino Nidierreitter. Nedierreitter might not be worth the 5th overall pick he was selected at, but he's definately worth a pair of seconds. And Clifford outproduced Clutterbauck last year, has a much lower cap hit and is younger.

A middleweight that can play is rare, even moreso than a solid stay at home D man. Clifford would fecth a very solid return. If you think he'd only return what we used to draft him, I think your value system is a bit off.
Montreal would have no problem giving up two seconds for a guy like Clifford.

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10-08-2013, 02:01 AM
  #49
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He's a 3rd liner, and he's one on LA, which is a very deep team.

Cal Clutterbuck came off a four goal season and he fetched a high end prospect in Nino Nidierreitter. Nedierreitter might not be worth the 5th overall pick he was selected at, but he's definately worth a pair of seconds. And Clifford outproduced Clutterbauck last year, has a much lower cap hit and is younger.

A middleweight that can play is rare, even moreso than a solid stay at home D man. Clifford would fecth a very solid return. If you think he'd only return what we used to draft him, I think your value system is a bit off.
Clutterbuck spent an entire season in the ahl developing where Clifford did not. Clutterbuck in his first 4 seasons averaged 15 goals a season, whereas Clifford averaged just 6 in his first 2 full seasons.

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10-08-2013, 02:23 AM
  #50
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Clutterbuck spent an entire season in the ahl developing where Clifford did not. Clutterbuck in his first 4 seasons averaged 15 goals a season, whereas Clifford averaged just 6 in his first 2 full seasons.
Mark Messier scored one goal in his first pro season. Alex Burrows took over 100 games to get 10 goals. Who cares? Hockey is full of cases where physical players didn't produce until their third, fourth or fifth season. It took Cam Neely until his fourth season to become anything more than a 15-20 goal scorer. Todd Bertuzzi was 25 and in his fifth season before he reached the 20 goal plateau.

What I do know is Clifford is coming off his best offensive year and Clutterbuck is coming off his worst, in a season where Clutterbuck averaged over three minutes more per game. And still, Clutterbuck fetched a damn good young player. So would Clifford.

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