HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New York Rangers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Goalies who handle the puck well...

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
10-04-2013, 09:24 AM
  #1
Cliffy1814
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 725
vCash: 500
Goalies who handle the puck well...

It was pretty evident last night at how valuable a puck handling goalie can be. Smith's play led directly to the second goal.
From a borader perspective, guys like Smith and Brodeur really can slow down a forecheck if you are careless with your dumps which was also evident last night.

This is a really valuable thing to have in a long series where a team can target a poor puck handling goalie and bang your D around over seven games and force you to go 200 feet every time.

I love Hank, but this is truly the one part of his game that is below average. What sort of gnaws at me is that he has never really improved it. It strikes me the same way as when I see a great basktball player unable to make free throws. As a fan you're like "Can't he work on that and get better". I still find myself screaming at the TV to "Don't touch it".
I know you always want the one thing you can't have, but man he could make life easier for our D if he could even become average at it.

I am not a goalie (or a world class athlete) so I cannot attest to the validity of my thinking so I am throwing it out to the board.

The only thing I can come up with is that if you are a natural right handed thrower and shooter in hockey, as a goalie you wind up having to shoot lefty by virtue of having the catching glove on left hand and stick in right hand. That could certain limit your proficiency in handling the puck.

Can any goalies out there comment? Does that make any sense?

Cliffy1814 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2013, 09:29 AM
  #2
Gardner McKay
Moderator
Hey Hey
 
Gardner McKay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Atlanta
Country: United States
Posts: 11,515
vCash: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliffy1814 View Post
It was pretty evident last night at how valuable a puck handling goalie can be. Smith's play led directly to the second goal.
From a borader perspective, guys like Smith and Brodeur really can slow down a forecheck if you are careless with your dumps which was also evident last night.

This is a really valuable thing to have in a long series where a team can target a poor puck handling goalie and bang your D around over seven games and force you to go 200 feet every time.

I love Hank, but this is truly the one part of his game that is below average. What sort of gnaws at me is that he has never really improved it. It strikes me the same way as when I see a great basktball player unable to make free throws. As a fan you're like "Can't he work on that and get better". I still find myself screaming at the TV to "Don't touch it".
I know you always want the one thing you can't have, but man he could make life easier for our D if he could even become average at it.

I am not a goalie (or a world class athlete) so I cannot attest to the validity of my thinking so I am throwing it out to the board.

The only thing I can come up with is that if you are a natural right handed thrower and shooter in hockey, as a goalie you wind up having to shoot lefty by virtue of having the catching glove on left hand and stick in right hand. That could certain limit your proficiency in handling the puck.

Can any goalies out there comment? Does that make any sense?
This probably belongs in Jon's thread. But if they keep it open... I agree. Lundqvist is terribad at puck handling. You would think that they have worked with him on it over the years (there has been a SLIGHT improvement). It is something that has cost us many, many times. Yet at this stage of his career I don't see it improving much at atll.

__________________
"If someone offers you an amazing opportunity and you're not sure you can do it, say yes - then learn how to do it later" - Richard Branson
Gardner McKay is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2013, 10:43 AM
  #3
eco's bones
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Elmira NY
Country: United States
Posts: 13,206
vCash: 500
Smith was a main factor in the game winning goal. OTOH Rangers did knock several of his passes down and the play that led to the Dorsett fight was almost a huge blunder on his part as Dorsett did get his stick on Smith's stick and the puck right on top of the goal crease. Smith's on ice awareness wasn't all that great apart from that goal he helped his team score.

eco's bones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2013, 11:06 AM
  #4
Crease
Registered User
 
Crease's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,833
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliffy1814 View Post
The only thing I can come up with is that if you are a natural right handed thrower and shooter in hockey, as a goalie you wind up having to shoot lefty by virtue of having the catching glove on left hand and stick in right hand. That could certain limit your proficiency in handling the puck.

Can any goalies out there comment? Does that make any sense?
A vast majority of right-handed goalies shoot left-handed very well sans goalie gloves. The impediment is the inability to get a solid grip with your bottom hand due to the design of the catcher; it is not that they'd prefer to shoot right-handed.

Crease is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2013, 11:40 AM
  #5
DelZottoHitTheNetJK
Registered User
 
DelZottoHitTheNetJK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 800
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crease View Post
A vast majority of right-handed goalies shoot left-handed very well sans goalie gloves. The impediment is the inability to get a solid grip with your bottom hand due to the design of the catcher; it is not that they'd prefer to shoot right-handed.
I played goal in HS and college so I think I can chime in here; this pretty much holds true. I didn't pay attention in last nights game to how Hank handled the puck but it looks like he does it old school with his trapper held towards the sky underneath the stick. This makes it very difficult to handle the puck (shoot it with power, mostly) as a goalie. Most goalies nowadays turn the catcher over and close it on the stick, which gives MUCH more grip for hard shooting and passing. Two guys that really made this famous were Turco and DiPietro and it just caught on from there. In high school I used the old fashioned way to handle the puck, then when Turco and DP started passing hail marys from behind the net to the opponents blue line everyone started switching to that method including me.

The second part of the equation for Hank is that he is rumored to use a VERY stiff glove. This is evident in his catching style; he very rarely closes his glove on the puck when making a save which is a pretty tell tale sign of a super stiff glove. The reason that some goalies use a ridiculously stiff glove is two-fold; one being for extra protection in the palm (this is more of an issue in practice, where goalies will usually have an even STIFFER practice glove), the second for maximum surface area coverage. Softer gloves tend to naturally crush inwards as they break in, reducing surface area to get glove on puck. Stiff gloves don't crush inwards as they break in which gives them a larger, circular surface to get leather on puck. This makes the Turco method of stick handling basically impossible for Hank as his glove won't fully close over the stick.

TL;DR : it's a tradeoff. Hank chooses a stiff glove because it provides better shot coverage which is really a goalies #1 priority. Smith uses a softer glove for better puck handling. Because puck handling is priority #2, it's pretty logical as to why Hank uses the stiffer glove

DelZottoHitTheNetJK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2013, 12:02 PM
  #6
Fire Sather
new Niclas Wallin?
 
Fire Sather's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 21,662
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Fire Sather
Smith gets very lucky, especially against the Rangers. He made a lot of silly plays that the Rangers read and knocked down but couldn't do anything with.

He made that 2nd goal though, no doubt.

Personally I'd lose my mind with a goalie like that on the Rangers.

Fire Sather is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2013, 12:13 PM
  #7
Bluenote13
Believe In Henke
 
Bluenote13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: BKLYN, NYC
Posts: 23,866
vCash: 500
It'd be nice, but stopping the puck like a magician more than makes up for below average stick handling skills.

Bluenote13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2013, 12:59 PM
  #8
HockeyBasedNYC
Registered User
 
HockeyBasedNYC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Here
Country: United States
Posts: 12,981
vCash: 500
I've said it a hundred times, 8 times out of 10 when Hank handles the puck, it results in putting his teammates in bad positions. And im not exaggerating. He hesitates often and usually pics the wrong side and area to put the puck in. this results in extra scoring chances and zone time for the opposition. AV is going to hate this as he gets to know Henriks game.

Hes better off staying in his crease the entire time. I love Lundqvist but thats an area he really struggles with and hasnt improved much over the years. Some fans will minimize this, but it is a significant contributor to defensive zone time over the course of the year. You realize this when you watch Biron play a game. Hes not a Smith or Brodeur out there, but he gets the job done.

If Henrik was just an average, competent puck handler - he would probably face 1 or 2 less quality chances per game.

HockeyBasedNYC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2013, 01:07 PM
  #9
Bluenote13
Believe In Henke
 
Bluenote13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: BKLYN, NYC
Posts: 23,866
vCash: 500
HB, if they know he is not the best with the puck on his stick, they need to adapt. Henke is what he is. I can count plenty of Cup winning goalies who were downright awful at stickhandling. Those teams didn't press for a better stickhandler, they adapted to fit their game.

Richter was just as bad, no one cared when he was stopping the puck like a world beater.

Bluenote13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2013, 01:07 PM
  #10
Zamboner
Your move, creep.
 
Zamboner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: NY
Country: United States
Posts: 1,674
vCash: 500
A goalie who handles the puck "well," still handles the puck horribly. It's a sliding scale. Personally, I have no envy about that. Smith isn't going to be responsible for many goals for this year, but he will be responsible for many horrible giveaways, and if I were a Yotes fan, three or four times a game where my sphincter closes. So, no thanks. Granted, goalies like this are good for disrupting forechecks, but the best teams aren't usually dump and chase, and if they are, they're smart enough to dump into corners. My biggest problem with goalies that handle the puck "well," is that because they're confident, they overhandle the puck. I want my goalie touching the puck as little as possible.

Zamboner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2013, 01:28 PM
  #11
Cliffy1814
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 725
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zamboner View Post
A goalie who handles the puck "well," still handles the puck horribly. It's a sliding scale. Personally, I have no envy about that. Smith isn't going to be responsible for many goals for this year, but he will be responsible for many horrible giveaways, and if I were a Yotes fan, three or four times a game where my sphincter closes. So, no thanks. Granted, goalies like this are good for disrupting forechecks, but the best teams aren't usually dump and chase, and if they are, they're smart enough to dump into corners. My biggest problem with goalies that handle the puck "well," is that because they're confident, they overhandle the puck. I want my goalie touching the puck as little as possible.
This is true and as some have said already Smith almost gave a couple away last night, and it certainly is not like the goalie is going to spring a guy for a breakaway that directly results in a goal too often. The risk vs regard is perhaps neglible.

I think that potential advnatage manifests itself more in the playoffs though. A goalie who can help in the break out it is a huge advantage. Two years ago in the ECF it was really evident on both sides. The Devils have average defensemen who were greatly aided by Marty, while we were basically playing 4.5 defensemen and the Devils were throwng it in and taking every opportunity to bang our D. Del Zotto for instance, started making quick irrational decisions with the puck.

Cliffy1814 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2013, 01:31 PM
  #12
HockeyBasedNYC
Registered User
 
HockeyBasedNYC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Here
Country: United States
Posts: 12,981
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
HB, if they know he is not the best with the puck on his stick, they need to adapt. Henke is what he is. I can count plenty of Cup winning goalies who were downright awful at stickhandling. Those teams didn't press for a better stickhandler, they adapted to fit their game.

Richter was just as bad, no one cared when he was stopping the puck like a world beater.

That's all well and good, but how do you adapt?

Especially in AV's system where the pressure is going to be up the ice and on the transition game. Its more about the decision making of Lundy and not where his teammates are. A lot of times his teammates are in perfect positions to receive a pass or support him and he rings it around the other side, doesnt get the puck to them fast enough, or drops it into an area that isnt advantageous. I dont know how you can adapt to that other then not letting him handle the puck at all or only during certain situations.

HockeyBasedNYC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2013, 01:33 PM
  #13
Barbara Underhill
Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuke
 
Barbara Underhill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Montana
Country: United States
Posts: 13,244
vCash: 500
This thread wouldn't exist if we had won and/or hadn't played against Smith.

Hank certainly isn't a puck mover, never has been, never will be. But he is as good at it as he needs to be. Biron is pretty solid maybe we should just use him as our starter?

Jonathan Quick is pretty bad too, at least Hanks gaffs don't lead to empty net goals.

Anyone remember his rookie season I think when it seemed like he was going for the empty net goal and a Flyer knocked it down and scored on him lol. That really stopped him from trying to do anything too risky.

Barbara Underhill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2013, 01:35 PM
  #14
Bluenote13
Believe In Henke
 
Bluenote13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: BKLYN, NYC
Posts: 23,866
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
That's all well and good, but how do you adapt?

Especially in AV's system where the pressure is going to be up the ice and on the transition game. Its more about the decision making of Lundy and not where his teammates are. A lot of times his teammates are in perfect positions to receive a pass or support him and he rings it around the other side, doesnt get the puck to them fast enough, or drops it into an area that isnt advantageous. I dont know how you can adapt to that other then not letting him handle the puck at all or only during certain situations.
You just said it, instead of anticipating a perfect pass from a guy who continually shows he has a problem with that, maybe they need to economize their actions in the defensive zone. You make it sound like that is impossible to achieve, yet teams have been doing it for years.

Bluenote13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2013, 02:51 PM
  #15
007
Olympic nut
 
007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Mannahatta
Country: Finland
Posts: 3,478
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to 007 Send a message via MSN to 007
I think with Hank, it's more than just technique. More than once I've seen him make very poor decisions with the puck behind his net, even when trying to make a play that he's perfectly capable of. I don't think it's that his hockey sense disappears when he leaves the crease, I think it's that he must be fully aware that puckhandling is the worst aspect of his game (like everyone else, I agree that's the best worst thing to have), which causes him to hesitate sometimes.

007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2013, 03:19 PM
  #16
Aufheben
Global Moderator
#RollWithHayes
 
Aufheben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Victoria, BC
Country: Angola
Posts: 13,765
vCash: 69
Hanks puckhandling has gotten a lot better the last couple years. Every time he used to play it he would send it straight to the other team. He still makes gaffs but he has gotten noticeably better. You can't have a goalie that's amazing at everything. Hank's puckhandling is dead last on the list of this team's problems.

Aufheben is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-05-2013, 03:45 AM
  #17
Fanned On It
Registered User
 
Fanned On It's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: New York
Country: United States
Posts: 1,902
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliffy1814 View Post

The only thing I can come up with is that if you are a natural right handed thrower and shooter in hockey, as a goalie you wind up having to shoot lefty by virtue of having the catching glove on left hand and stick in right hand. That could certain limit your proficiency in handling the puck.

Can any goalies out there comment? Does that make any sense?
You realize that the "right" way (well not really "right" but the way that makes most sense according to most hockey players/coaches) to shoot in hockey is to have your power hand on top, right? So a natural righty (who writes right-handed and throws right-handed) like myself would shoot "lefty" in hockey with his right hand on top of the stick controlling stick-handling/most other functions.

With that in mind, it actually BENEFITS right-handed goalies if they play goalie normally as opposed to south-paw.

Fanned On It is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-09-2013, 01:25 AM
  #18
vstk
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: White Plains, NY
Country: Finland
Posts: 629
vCash: 500
You have to remember that Hank uses a modified catching glove with strengthened paw which is why it makes his saves look awkward and funny at times. I do believe this is a direct result why his stickhandling is as bad as it is. I can't believe how hard it is to use that glove for pretty much anything.

Your better hand (the one that feels natural when you're catching) is always the glove hand. That, and pretty much solely that, makes you choose a side when you start playing hockey as a kid. How much it's result of throwing and catching ball when you're a kid, I don't know. The other hand throws better, other catches better. That makes sense?

10/10 goalies would choose a better glove hand over stickhandling any given time. Some are better at the other, some are good doing both.

vstk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-09-2013, 01:43 AM
  #19
mrhockey193195
Registered User
 
mrhockey193195's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,691
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbara Underhill View Post
This thread wouldn't exist if we had won and/or hadn't played against Smith.

Hank certainly isn't a puck mover, never has been, never will be. But he is as good at it as he needs to be. Biron is pretty solid maybe we should just use him as our starter?

Jonathan Quick is pretty bad too, at least Hanks gaffs don't lead to empty net goals.

Anyone remember his rookie season I think when it seemed like he was going for the empty net goal and a Flyer knocked it down and scored on him lol. That really stopped him from trying to do anything too risky.
It's funny, I always thought he was better with the puck than people gave him credit for. Then that moment happened, and I think Renney and the staff probably told him to cut the **** and not try that again. And I feel like his confidence and ability with the puck went completely downhill soon after.

mrhockey193195 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:59 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.