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The United States Debt.

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Old
10-10-2013, 10:58 AM
  #76
Ugmo
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Originally Posted by Metro Misfits View Post
Would you eliminate medicade / Medicare and government healthcare for the single payer and just lump everyone into it?
Sure, why not?

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Who are the wealthy?
Let's start with the segment of the population that just saw it's top bracket rise by 3.5 percent... and then raise it some more.

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You know me on the military, it would be a very massive reduction.
No kidding. It's obscene that the U.S. spends six times more on its military than the number two country, China. Cutting military spending is a no-brainer. But pretty much impossible due to entrenched military interests are in Washington.

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10-10-2013, 11:22 AM
  #77
Troy McClure
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Originally Posted by Metro Misfits View Post
(I am also making a point, I suggested something that would not be popular to most to cut, and watch you all argue about why it can't be cut. Now apply that to ever single politician and them protecting a special interest.)
You also started with a program that has been around for almost 100 years (longer if you go back to when it was merely run as a larger part of the Dept. of the Interior), hasn't really grown all that much, and isn't a drain on the budget. It's a program you have not been able to offer up any justification for cutting other than "government bad."

It's also a program that is a huge positive for the nation:

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Originally Posted by Wikipedia so it has to be true
According to a 2011 Michigan State University report prepared for the NPS, for each $1 invested in the NPS, the American public receives $4 in economic value. In 2011, national parks generated $30.1 billion in economic activity and 252,000 jobs nationwide. Thirteen billion of that amount went directly into communities within 60 miles of a NPS unit.[22] Moreover, for every million dollars invested in park construction and maintenance, an additional 14 – 16 jobs are generated.
This isn't just about what is popular or unpopular. This is about being smart. Thankfully, cutting for the sake of cutting to satisfy your utopian view of a tiny federal government won't ever happen. Our elected leaders may not be the best and brightest, but they're not about to do away with a program that actually a rare example of a government program that is an economic engine.

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10-10-2013, 01:04 PM
  #78
Tim Calhoun
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Yes, but imagine how much more you would have enjoyed your time there if those national parks had been under the governance of Alberta!
Alberta's provincial parks are also very nice.

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10-10-2013, 01:11 PM
  #79
Ishmael
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Alberta's provincial parks are also very nice.
In Nova Scotia, the Provincial Parks are awesome and the National Parks are spectacular.

Private campgrounds pretty much all suck though.

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10-10-2013, 02:14 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Metro Misfits View Post
Would you eliminate medicade / Medicare and government healthcare for the single payer and just lump everyone into it?

Who are the wealthy?

You know me on the military, it would be a very massive reduction.
In a New York minute.

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I am no fan of Roosevelt.

(I am also making a point, I suggested something that would not be popular to most to cut, and watch you all argue about why it can't be cut. Now apply that to ever single politician and them protecting a special interest.)

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10-10-2013, 03:22 PM
  #81
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I would do all of those and...

- reduce government backing of student loans and work to eliminating government backing of mortgages.

- end the international war on drugs and greatly reduce the domestic war on drugs.

- pardon all nonviolent federal drug offenders and shut down the privatized federal prison system.

- increase the social security age a couple of years, reduce social security benefits for those who don't need them, and look to dropping spousal benefits for working couples.

- tax carried interests as ordinary income (These are the interests hedge fund and investment fund managers get from the funds they manage. Even though managing the funds is the full time day job of these people, their income gets treated as capital gains and not ordinary income, which saves a lot in federal income taxes -- upwards of $20 billion a year, according to some).
I cannot really disagree with any one of these suggestions. To make the obligations of the federal government less, I suggest the fed to engage in vast devaluation of the currency. If the currency loses 10% of its value, the obligation will be reduced by 10%.

However, with the "securitization" obsession within the criminal justice apparatus, pardons will continue to get harder and harder. We are a "securitization" society and no longer about discipline.

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10-10-2013, 03:48 PM
  #82
Dan-o16
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Originally Posted by Troy McClure View Post
- reduce government backing of student loans and work to eliminating government backing of mortgages.
No on student loans. As for mortgages, the only way to effectively do this is to allow interest rates to go up. Why sell money if you can't make money doing it?

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- end the international war on drugs and greatly reduce the domestic war on drugs.
You can't do this w/o decriminalizing certain drugs. Prices will plunge and we'll have a serious problem.

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- pardon all nonviolent federal drug offenders and shut down the privatized federal prison system.
A nice thought, but we don't have the mental and rehab institutions to handle this.

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- increase the social security age a couple of years, reduce social security benefits for those who don't need them, and look to dropping spousal benefits for working couples.
This is the easiest "yes".

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- tax carried interests as ordinary income (These are the interests hedge fund and investment fund managers get from the funds they manage. Even though managing the funds is the full time day job of these people, their income gets treated as capital gains and not ordinary income, which saves a lot in federal income taxes -- upwards of $20 billion a year, according to some).
Capital gains IS income. This is been the single biggest driver of wealth distribution to the wealthy in the US. Why hit just hedge fund people? Why not have a cap based on reasonable retirement savings? Lower capital gains for those who will actually spend the money.

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10-10-2013, 04:14 PM
  #83
Troy McClure
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No on student loans. As for mortgages, the only way to effectively do this is to allow interest rates to go up. Why sell money if you can't make money doing it?
Why no on student loans? The single biggest driver in the wild tuition increases is the easy and near unlimited access to student loans. Burdening a bunch of people with debt by 22 is not a good thing.

As for mortgage rates going up, that's fine by me. It might force people to be more responsible about what they borrow.

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You can't do this w/o decriminalizing certain drugs. Prices will plunge and we'll have a serious problem.
It'll be fine.

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A nice thought, but we don't have the mental and rehab institutions to handle this.
How many of those prisoners would need rehab or institutionalization?

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Originally Posted by Dan-o16 View Post
Capital gains IS income. This is been the single biggest driver of wealth distribution to the wealthy in the US. Why hit just hedge fund people? Why not have a cap based on reasonable retirement savings? Lower capital gains for those who will actually spend the money.
Capital gains is income, but it is a different type taxed at lower rates. I am picking on hedge fund managers because they found a way to turn their salaries and bonuses into capital gains. It's a BS trick none of us can pull off. That loophole needs to be fixed.

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10-10-2013, 04:30 PM
  #84
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Interest rate deduction will not be changed in that manner likely ever, and I have absolutely no problem with that.

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10-10-2013, 04:49 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Troy McClure View Post
Why no on student loans? The single biggest driver in the wild tuition increases is the easy and near unlimited access to student loans. Burdening a bunch of people with debt by 22 is not a good thing.
A lot of young people do not worry about students loans at the time and don't really comprehend them IMO. They expect to get a fantastic paying job when they leave uni/college which isn't always the case. Often young people will go to a very expensive uni/college instead of a local one.

I did my post secondary schooling at a local university, lived with my parents and worked. I graduated with a surplus of money and no debt. I know many people that moved out and have lots of debt.

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10-10-2013, 08:45 PM
  #86
Big Phil
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You don't get it. You see, in Canada we currently have a conservative government, so debt and deficits don't matter for Big Phil. In US however, there is Obama The Commie, so naturally, for Big Phil, the US debt is a more pressing problem.
Boy you guys are really a piece of work here. Which debt is worse, Canada's or USA's?

Canada - $616 billion - $18,000 per Canadian

USA - $17 trillion - $55,000 per American

Guess which one I'd rather be a part of?

There has been $7 trillion added to the national US debt since 2008 from Obama the apparent "Commie" with little sign of seeing it drop.

Did anyone else's mother ever tell them money doesn't grow on trees?

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10-11-2013, 06:12 AM
  #87
Ugmo
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There has been $7 trillion added to the national US debt since 2008 from Obama the apparent "Commie" with little sign of seeing it drop.
Do you have any idea what caused the big deficits? This is a serious question. You're aware that before he even took the oath of office, Obama was going to have to deal with several years of deficits in excess of 1 trillion dollars no matter what action he took, right?

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10-11-2013, 08:42 AM
  #88
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Why no on student loans? The single biggest driver in the wild tuition increases is the easy and near unlimited access to student loans. Burdening a bunch of people with debt by 22 is not a good thing.
Just as we can't feed the market for higher education with unchecked subsdies, we can't trust the market with our kids' futures. The bottom line is that we can't trust the higher-ed market. Government is often one problem amongst others, but assuming that gov't is the only problem is just another bit of libertarian religion.

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As for mortgage rates going up, that's fine by me. It might force people to be more responsible about what they borrow.
It also has the effect of decreasing the nation's fixed rate debt load. As long as it's done gradually so as not to shock the housing market.

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It'll be fine.
All praise Troy.

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How many of those prisoners would need rehab or institutionalization?
All of them will need counselling at the least, most more. Prison is traumatic. My wife works with ex-offenders.

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Capital gains is income, but it is a different type taxed at lower rates.
I realize this. It's ridiculous.

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I am picking on hedge fund managers because they found a way to turn their salaries and bonuses into capital gains. It's a BS trick none of us can pull off. That loophole needs to be fixed.
It's all a BS trick. Capital gains is the loophole.

I hate the incentives/disincentives crap on entrepreneurs. It's ridiculous that entrepreneurs have to pay double the FICA, but less of the taxes. Of course, the former is more of a barrier for small business than the latter. It favors the investment class over small businesses and startups. Of course, the libertarian clergy fight this heresy tooth and nail.

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Old
10-11-2013, 09:21 AM
  #89
PensFanSince1989
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That's nice. Canada's population is 10% of the US population and the GDP is an even smaller percentage. Debt as share of GDP is more important than just a total dollar figure in debt, which is why (for example) Greece's public debt as a share of GDP (161.3) is far more concerning than the US figure (73.6).
Where are you getting your numbers?

Canada's 2012 GDP was 1.821 Trillion. US's was 15.68 Trillion. (Canada's GDP is about 11.6 % of US's, not under 10)

Canada's debt is $641 billion or 35% of its 2012 GDP. USA's debt is 16.75 Trillion or over 100% of its 2012 GDP.

Canada's projected deficit for the year is ~$18 billion or less than 1% of its GDP. The USA's projected deficit I've $600 billion, so over 35% of its GDP.

And in case you're wondering, Canada has a higher GDP per Capita than the USA.

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10-11-2013, 09:23 AM
  #90
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Capital gains rates could definitely use a bit of a boost.

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10-11-2013, 09:30 AM
  #91
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With that said, this obsession over the current debt and deficit with the US is stupid. Yes, we should strive for a balance budget and even surpluses so we can pay down our debts when we can. But countries have to be smart, pragmatic and sensible about it. The deficit and debt levels in the US, while high, aren't at an unsustainable spot right now. The deficit is falling at an extremely fast pace. If there was a Republican I. Office, there wouldn't be nearly the outcry about it, but since its a Dem controlled White House, omg, commie big government, debts the start of the armegeddon.

When recovering from a recession is the last time you want across the board or deep cuts. That will be counter productive and really hurt the economy. Austerity does not work in recessions. What you don't do is, when the economy is good and you actually have a surplus, campaign in the fact that that means taxes are too high and introduce trillion dollar tax cuts (and when the economy tanks, without changing the structure of the tax cuts, just change rationale to 'They are stimulus!)...

Whatever solution the US finds for its deficit woes, should be balanced. Revenue increases a long with sensible spending cuts. The side that is so obsessed with the debt currently doesn't want that. The only thing that would make the US debt the center of the US economy and world economy is if the government actually allows it to default on that debt.

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10-11-2013, 09:38 AM
  #92
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Where are you getting your numbers?

Canada's 2012 GDP was 1.821 Trillion. US's was 15.68 Trillion. (Canada's GDP is about 11.6 % of US's, not under 10)

Canada's debt is $641 billion or 35% of its 2012 GDP. USA's debt is 16.75 Trillion or over 100% of its 2012 GDP.

Canada's projected deficit for the year is ~$18 billion or less than 1% of its GDP. The USA's projected deficit I've $600 billion, so over 35% of its GDP.

And in case you're wondering, Canada has a higher GDP per Capita than the USA.
Since when is 641 billion 35% of 15.6 trillion?

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10-11-2013, 09:43 AM
  #93
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Since when is 641 billion 35% of 15.6 trillion?
It appears he is referring to Canada's GDP and not that of the U.S.

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10-11-2013, 09:44 AM
  #94
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Just cut the debt ... **** the banks!

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10-11-2013, 09:47 AM
  #95
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It appears he is referring to Canada's GDP and not that of the U.S.
I meant to say 600 billion which he said was 35% of 15.6 trillion. I assume he just mixed up some of the numbers. Maybe he meant 6000 billion?

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10-11-2013, 09:48 AM
  #96
Tim Calhoun
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Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post
Where are you getting your numbers?

Canada's 2012 GDP was 1.821 Trillion. US's was 15.68 Trillion. (Canada's GDP is about 11.6 % of US's, not under 10)

Canada's debt is $641 billion or 35% of its 2012 GDP. USA's debt is 16.75 Trillion or over 100% of its 2012 GDP.

Canada's projected deficit for the year is ~$18 billion or less than 1% of its GDP. The USA's projected deficit I've $600 billion, so over 35% of its GDP.

And in case you're wondering, Canada has a higher GDP per Capita than the USA.
He was probably using PPP figures.

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10-11-2013, 09:50 AM
  #97
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Since when is 641 billion 35% of 15.6 trillion?
Ha, whoops, if you are talking the $600 billion (641 billion is Canada's debt), looks like I skipped the . Place. Should read over 3.5% for USA's deficit per GDP.

$641 billion is Canada's public debt and is 35% of its $1.821 GDP (2012)

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10-11-2013, 09:52 AM
  #98
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Ha, whoops, if you are talking the $600 billion (641 billion is Canada's debt), looks like I skipped the . Place. Should read over 3.5% for USA's deficit per GDP.

$641 billion is Canada's public debt and is 35% of its $1.821 GDP (2012)
Yeah I meant to say 600. Thanks for the clarification. That makes more sense.

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10-11-2013, 12:16 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post
Where are you getting your numbers?
You're talking about net debt, he's referring to gross debt. There's a difference. Canada's gross debt is much higher than 35% of GDP.

Either way, running large deficits seems to be a pretty common practice for developed, western nations. I wonder how far it can go.

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10-11-2013, 03:52 PM
  #100
Big Phil
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Do you have any idea what caused the big deficits? This is a serious question. You're aware that before he even took the oath of office, Obama was going to have to deal with several years of deficits in excess of 1 trillion dollars no matter what action he took, right?
Serious answer, yes. It isn't all Obama's fault obviously. Bush's years had a large share in this as well. However, 5 years in office is still 5 years in office with little sign of any improvement. Did Ronald Reagan blame Jimmy Carter in 1981 and just let that be the status quo?

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