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What did people think of Selanne when he first broke into the league?

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Old
10-10-2013, 05:56 PM
  #26
Plural
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Originally Posted by the edler View Post
Mogilny even had a better PPG than 4th placed Yzerman. For what it's worth.

1| Lemieux 2.67
2| LaFontaine 1.76
3| Oates 1.69
4| Mogilny 1.65
5| Yzerman 1.63
6| Turgeon 1.59
7| Selänne 1.57
Sorry, my bad. Selanne had slightly better APG that year. PPG and GPG was Moginly.

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10-10-2013, 06:00 PM
  #27
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if you're talking about me, pavel's and teemu's careers went in opposite directions. pavel became more of a cherry picker as he got older, teemu became less. but if you saw them play all those divisional games and the first round of the '93 playoffs, you'd see that one guy was a decently well-rounded player for a scoring winger, and the other guy was, well, '98 bure.
I, as a fullblown Selanne fan agree with this. It kind of raises interesting question. Which one was actually the better player?

Bure in his first years was clearly more well rounded player than Selanne. Although Bure never had the same playmaking ability as Selanne, but Bure had edge on 200ft. Later on Selanne became a lot more reliable player and Bure kind of regressed.

Peak is close and the raw offensive talent level is fairly close. Bure admittedly was deadlier player on the rush, but Selanne was probably the more versatile threat.

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10-10-2013, 06:08 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by FirstOverallLine View Post
Really? I've always thought it was Modano and Linden, and then everyone else. Was the 1988 draft sort of like this past draft where the focus was mostly on MacKinnon and Drouin, but Barkov was also highly regarded as well? Note I am not trying to compare the skills of the guys from 1988 to the guys from 2013. I am just trying to compare the hype.
There might be some merit on the idea that euros were getting less attention back then. I don't think it is the case on Barkov. As much as I like the guy (and I have followed him very closely, Sasha was my cousins rival in junior years. I watched Barkov play live at least 40 games after he turned 15). But Barkov is a bit overrated. Great player and has the tools to be legit #1, but there is no world where Barkov is better than Jones...
But now to the point, when Selanne was drafted, scouting was fraction of what it is today. Selanne also refused to sign with the team that drafted him. (Also a thing nobody ever talks about) It took as late as Calgary to sign him when the Jets matched. Selanne was by no means a safe bet at the time he was drafted. The guy actually was a lot more self aware at young age. Last years he has been the team/fan player. But he definitely had a strong idea of himself as a prospect.

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10-10-2013, 06:10 PM
  #29
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The Fella could score a bit.

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10-10-2013, 06:14 PM
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For whatever reason, whether it was Hull or Selanne, I never felt like Gretzky's 92 goals would be threatened. Hull got close with 86, but I guess with me there was always something else that Gretzky just "had" over those guys in terms of goal scoring. Lemieux was the only name I ever thought could break 92 goals. I don't know, I guess I just figured Selanne would be a great goal scorer after 1993, which he was, but since he didn't have the playmaking that Gretzky had, I felt that teams would eventually key on him and he wouldn't have as many avenues to score. In other words, Gretzky - and even Lemieux - could fall back on their playmaking and use that as a threat so that they were able to score even more goals, while I didn't feel that way with Selanne.

Still thought he'd be a heck of a player though, and he was.

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10-10-2013, 06:18 PM
  #31
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It was a surprise he would score like he did, but he wasn't a suprise. He was drafted in 1988 with a first round pick and his arrival was anticipated. The biggest surprise of the rookies was Joe Juneau who I think broke the record for most assists by a rookie. That was the biggest surprise because no one had heard of him, and he was a college player.

The worst part of that year was hearing everyone slam Lindros for not being as good as these other two.

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10-10-2013, 06:55 PM
  #32
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by Pantokrator View Post
It was a surprise he would score like he did, but he wasn't a suprise. He was drafted in 1988 with a first round pick and his arrival was anticipated. The biggest surprise of the rookies was Joe Juneau who I think broke the record for most assists by a rookie. That was the biggest surprise because no one had heard of him, and he was a college player.

The worst part of that year was hearing everyone slam Lindros for not being as good as these other two.
joe juneau was VERY highly anticipated after dominating the winter olympics in '92, then lighting up the NHL during the stretch run (5 goals, 14 assists in 14 games). he also was very good in the first two round of the playoffs, almost putting up a PPG (3 goals, 7 assists, in 11 games), before the Bs were swept by the defending champs in the third round (2 assists).


re: big phil and gretzky's record, i did always feel in the early 90s like mario would have a healthy year and threaten gretzky's 92. i didn't think he'd ever break 215, but thought 92 was definitely in reach for a healthy early 90s mario.

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10-10-2013, 06:56 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
I, as a fullblown Selanne fan agree with this. It kind of raises interesting question. Which one was actually the better player?

Bure in his first years was clearly more well rounded player than Selanne. Although Bure never had the same playmaking ability as Selanne, but Bure had edge on 200ft. Later on Selanne became a lot more reliable player and Bure kind of regressed.

Peak is close and the raw offensive talent level is fairly close. Bure admittedly was deadlier player on the rush, but Selanne was probably the more versatile threat.
haha, i know better than to get into that debate again.

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10-10-2013, 06:59 PM
  #34
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I remember thinking that he, Zhamnov and Tkachuk were like the perfect line.

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10-10-2013, 08:14 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
I, as a fullblown Selanne fan agree with this. It kind of raises interesting question. Which one was actually the better player?
Selanne, over Bure in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
re: big phil and gretzky's record, i did always feel in the early 90s like mario would have a healthy year and threaten gretzky's 92. i didn't think he'd ever break 215, but thought 92 was definitely in reach for a healthy early 90s mario.
I agree

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10-10-2013, 09:08 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
joe juneau was VERY highly anticipated after dominating the winter olympics in '92, then lighting up the NHL during the stretch run (5 goals, 14 assists in 14 games). he also was very good in the first two round of the playoffs, almost putting up a PPG (3 goals, 7 assists, in 11 games), before the Bs were swept by the defending champs in the third round (2 assists).


re: big phil and gretzky's record, i did always feel in the early 90s like mario would have a healthy year and threaten gretzky's 92. i didn't think he'd ever break 215, but thought 92 was definitely in reach for a healthy early 90s mario.
I was thinking mainly in light of his draft position. I don't remember any talk about him being some hot prospect like I did Selanne. Did you think he was as hyped as Lindros coming into the season? I am a Flyers fan, so obviously I heard the Lindros hype living outside of Philly. I don't remember much of anything about Juneau hype - people seemed amazed at his production that year, at least it seemed like it to me.

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10-10-2013, 09:28 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Pantokrator View Post
I was thinking mainly in light of his draft position. I don't remember any talk about him being some hot prospect like I did Selanne. Did you think he was as hyped as Lindros coming into the season? I am a Flyers fan, so obviously I heard the Lindros hype living outside of Philly. I don't remember much of anything about Juneau hype - people seemed amazed at his production that year, at least it seemed like it to me.
no, nothing like lindros. probably less than selanne too, as he was considered the second best player outside of the NHL, but among all other rookies in the league going into the '92-'93 season, juneau was probably projected to be the best that year. like selanne another older guy (late bloomer, four years at college, then another year with the national team, 25 years old), plus he'd already showed that he could put up points at the NHL level. probably got less hype than he should have, again like selanne, because going into the year it was eric and then the rest. to a degree, top picks like hamrlik and kasparaitis, and guys who'd excelled in the AHL like felix potvin, they were all afterthoughts in the lindros news cycle.

if juneau had produced at the same pace for the entire '92 season instead of playing with the national team before joining the Bs after the olympics, he would have finished 5th in league scoring. small sample size, but people noticed that.

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10-11-2013, 12:31 AM
  #38
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That 92-93 rookie class was pretty sick. Selanne, Juneau, Potvin, Lindros. I believe Zhamnov produced over a PPG pace as a rookie and Zhitnik had 48 points as a rookie defenceman as well.

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10-11-2013, 12:47 AM
  #39
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I remember his rookie card being worth a lot. That, and Eric Lindros' Score rookie card. I could get both today for a fraction of what a single card would have cost back then.

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10-11-2013, 02:16 AM
  #40
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For what it's worth here Lindros scored at a 56 goal and 103 point pace as a rookie without playing on a line Bourque and Oates, so I don't know if he was actually "outplayed" by Joe Juneau in his rookie season. I know one has to play the games too, but that was Lindros in a nutshell playing 60 games a season. He was outplayed by Selänne though. Lindros were 19 in his rookie year though, while Selänne and Juneau were 22–23 and 25.

Another aspect of Lindros rookie season is that he led the Flyers in plus|minus with +28, while the second best players on the team, Galley and Carkner, was +18. That's a significant gap and shows he made quite an impact.


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10-11-2013, 02:43 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
I, as a fullblown Selanne fan agree with this. It kind of raises interesting question. Which one was actually the better player?
Let's make a poll!

I think Selänne and Bure took turns at being better than the other until Bure burned out, and that the overall value as a player was very similar. You could find slight differences in their games, Bure being a bit better game breaker and more explosive on the rush and sneaky on the PK, and Selänne being better at using his linemates. Bure never developed any real chemistry with Mogilny in Vancouver and, although a big reason for that was him getting seriously injured early in the 95–96 season, it was a disappointment.

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10-11-2013, 11:26 AM
  #42
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I find it weird that even in HoH so much emphasis is put on his rookie season, when actually it was the 4 peak seasons from '95-'96 to '98-'99 that create a lion's share of his legacy.

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10-11-2013, 11:41 AM
  #43
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I find it weird that even in HoH so much emphasis is put on his rookie season, when actually it was the 4 peak seasons from '95-'96 to '98-'99 that create a lion's share of his legacy.
I don't think anyone here thinks Selanne was better player in 93 than 96-99. But his rookie year has this mythical aura. Most points and goals by rookie. It could be argued that Crosby or Ovechkin had better rookie years. In context.

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10-11-2013, 12:30 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
I don't think anyone here thinks Selanne was better player in 93 than 96-99. But his rookie year has this mythical aura. Most points and goals by rookie. It could be argued that Crosby or Ovechkin had better rookie years. In context.
20 Goals in one month was always the cooler record to me. Kinda has that Dominik Hasek in December 1998 vibe.

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10-11-2013, 12:55 PM
  #45
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20 Goals in one month was always the cooler record to me. Kinda has that Dominik Hasek in December 1998 vibe.
That actually is a pretty great record. It's not rookie record, that's what sound cool to me.

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10-11-2013, 02:52 PM
  #46
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For what it's worth here Lindros scored at a 56 goal and 103 point pace as a rookie without playing on a line Bourque and Oates, so I don't know if he was actually "outplayed" by Joe Juneau in his rookie season. I know one has to play the games too, but that was Lindros in a nutshell playing 60 games a season. He was outplayed by Selänne though. Lindros were 19 in his rookie year though, while Selänne and Juneau were 22–23 and 25.

Another aspect of Lindros rookie season is that he led the Flyers in plus|minus with +28, while the second best players on the team, Galley and Carkner, was +18. That's a significant gap and shows he made quite an impact.
Selanne was 22. That is all.

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10-11-2013, 04:08 PM
  #47
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That 92-93 rookie class was pretty sick. Selanne, Juneau, Potvin, Lindros. I believe Zhamnov produced over a PPG pace as a rookie and Zhitnik had 48 points as a rookie defenceman as well.
OT, but i thought zhitnik was the best rookie defenseman in the league that year, not malakhov or niedermayer or kasparaitis. if you also include playoffs, it's not even close. none of those other guys had his all-round game yet, though kaspar was a boss in the playoffs too.

EDIT: also, the forgotten guy in this thread, whom i'd just remembered, is shawn mceachern. a pretty good showing as a complementary player in the '92 playoffs, and came out blazing the first months of the '93 season, which was his official rookie season. like juneau, a guy who definitely came into the season as one of the prime contenders to be lindros' calder bridesmaid. scored at a 50 goal/100 point pace in september, with the penguins killing everybody. cooled off more and more with every successive month, and was a relatively pedestrian 0.5 PPG guy by march, which continued into the playoffs.

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10-11-2013, 04:31 PM
  #48
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OT, but i thought zhitnik was the best rookie defenseman in the league that year, not malakhov or niedermayer or kasparaitis. if you also include playoffs, it's not even close. none of those other guys had his all-round game yet, though kaspar was a boss in the playoffs too.

EDIT: also, the forgotten guy in this thread, whom i'd just remembered, is shawn mceachern. a pretty good showing as a complementary player in the '92 playoffs, and came out blazing the first months of the '93 season, which was his official rookie season. like juneau, a guy who definitely came into the season as one of the prime contenders to be lindros' calder bridesmaid. scored at a 50 goal/100 point pace in september, with the penguins killing everybody. cooled off more and more with every successive month, and was a relatively pedestrian 0.5 PPG guy by march, which continued into the playoffs.
Do you think much of Zhitnik's success was due to Rob Blake's presence? I was too young to watch the Kings back then so I don't know who he was paired with, but if he was paired with Blake, I think that could have helped him adapt easier. If he was playing on the second pairing, that would have helped him too since he wouldn't have to face the top guns every night.

I had no idea McEachern got off to such a hot start that year. His stats as a whole that year don't look all that great.

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10-11-2013, 04:48 PM
  #49
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Do you think much of Zhitnik's success was due to Rob Blake's presence? I was too young to watch the Kings back then so I don't know who he was paired with, but if he was paired with Blake, I think that could have helped him adapt easier. If he was playing on the second pairing, that would have helped him too since he wouldn't have to face the top guns every night.

I had no idea McEachern got off to such a hot start that year. His stats as a whole that year don't look all that great.
re: mceachern, i don't remember the lines they started with, but when your top nine is peak mario, peak stevens, prime tocchet, prime francis, emerging jagr (90 points), and a resurgent mullen (30 goals/70 points), and you're getting PP time with them, that's a good position to be in.

re: zhitnik, i don't really remember zhitnik's pairings, except that i think it was with mcsorley in the playoffs. more certain that blake was usually with huddy all year. my suspicion, and i only have a faint memory of hearing something about this, would be that larry robinson had just retired and was hanging around as an unofficial assistant coach to work with the young D and that was the biggest factor. robinson takes a real assistant coach job with the devils the year after, so the timeline makes sense for him sticking around and learning the job in '93. the kings had blake, whom robinson taught so much, plus zhitnik and sydor. they also had a pretty enviable group of vets to help the young guys out: gretzky brought in charlie huddy the year before, coffey was there for half the year, mcsorley was playing by far the best hockey of his career (that's ten oilers cups right there), plus LA had their own homegrown vets in jay wells and tim watters.

what i do remember clearly about zhitnik is as a 20 year old rookie, he completely dominated bure in the second round of the playoffs.

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10-11-2013, 05:05 PM
  #50
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re: zhitnik, i don't really remember zhitnik's pairings, except that i think it was with mcsorley in the playoffs. more certain that blake was usually with huddy all year. my suspicion, and i only have a faint memory of hearing something about this, would be that larry robinson had just retired and was hanging around as an unofficial assistant coach to work with the young D and that was the biggest factor. robinson takes a real assistant coach job with the devils the year after, so the timeline makes sense for him sticking around and learning the job in '93. the kings had blake, whom robinson taught so much, plus zhitnik and sydor. they also had a pretty enviable group of vets to help the young guys out: gretzky brought in charlie huddy the year before, coffey was there for half the year, mcsorley was playing by far the best hockey of his career (that's ten oilers cups right there), plus LA had their own homegrown vets in jay wells and tim watters.
This makes sense. After all, Robinson did help Blake go from a relatively unknown fourth rounder to a star. I believe Rafalski's first couple of seasons in NJ Robinson was the coach as well and Rafalski went from nobody to 52 points in the NHL as a D. Not sure if that's a coincidence but Robinson's track record does look pretty good in developing defensemen.

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