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Kevin Dineen keep or let go?

View Poll Results: Keep or fire Dineen?
Keep 48 47.52%
Fire 53 52.48%
Voters: 101. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-15-2013, 02:23 AM
  #101
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My name is JP Mick and I approve of this hiring.

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10-15-2013, 07:51 AM
  #102
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Watch this piece on Bolland on TSN video "Winning Ways". It's the coaching comments and clips that make this interesting.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/#

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10-15-2013, 01:12 PM
  #103
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Their strengths don't make them physical. Their nature is still their nature. Flash is never going to be Scott Hartnell. Versteeg is never going to be Iginla. This is not Dineen's fault. You're even saying that some of these guys aren't that built...well that supports my point. And Flash is just as big as Whitney and Gilbert...
I might have put my words wrong or you misunderstood because the above sounds like an argument though I agree with every fact you're stating. What I was trying to say was those guys have negatives and positives, it is up to Dineen to utilize the positives so the negatives don't matter. Some guys are supposed to be extra physical, the others rely on those guys so they can be as physical as they can. If even physical in the sense that they push their legs the extra stride. All of that starts and ends with the manager, just as in any business.

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Sorry, but Schneider is a top 10-20 goalie in this league. That's universally accepted. We all want Thomas to do well, but there are question marks when a 39 year old goalie takes a year off, there just is. And it's not like he has even semi-respectable numbers right now. He's looked pretty good for the most part, but goaltending is the hardest position to come back to after taking a hiatus. These guys have to be in the best shape of anybody.
Not sorry, but Tim Thomas is a top 5-10 goalie. Markstrom is at least as good as Schneider. I think we'd both be happy to know I got this one Oh bold leads me to ask, since I can't believe I never have..have you ever played in net yourself? I'm not gonna hear the numbers BS, what if Tim was behind the team vs Pittsburgh? Until we see that effort/situation in front of Tim, no more mention of numbers.
Sorry for not doing a good job of not sounding like an AH, but we have have the better top 2 for sure.

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We all appreciate what Weaver does, but he should not be the best d-man on a team that wants to call itself respectable. That's all I'm saying. Right now our blueline is playing like garbage. There's no getting around that. Soupy should be able to perform no matter who he's playing with, he's paid enough, and we rely on him to be our #1 guy. Right now he's playing like a #4. Same goes for Gud and Kuli to a lesser extent. I think Kuli being paired with Weaver is very good for him, and he still isn't playing up to par. Gudbranson could be better utilized, but he still shoulders plenty of blame. These guys are making simple mistakes and mental errors. They should be able to perform up to the standards expected of them regardless of who they play with. Petrovic isn't on the roster. Zero said our roster is better than NJ's, so that includes Gilbert, Gilroy and Whitney. Besides, Nate has commented on Petro. He is sometimes completely lost at the AHL level. He isn't ready for full-time NHL duty yet, despite having a very solid 6 games last season.

Brennan...he's not on our team so he's pointless to mention.
OK, that's a terrible insult to Mike Weaver. He'd be more reliable to any Atlantic area goaltender than anyone.
Soupy should be able to perform with whoever? Jovo McCabe Kuba anyone?
How about when we've seen Guds and Kuli together its been great, makes lots of sense that we haven't seen it more often.
Our roster including our bottom 3 of 7 in Gilbert Gilroy and Whitney IS better because I wouldn't take anyone in NJ over Guds, Kuli, Weaver, and Soup.
Brennan would've made the above statement 5. Petro 6. No reason either one of aren't on our current roster.
It's never pointless to mention Brennan. That was 10x worse then the Grabner (at least understandable)**** up.
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How can you tell me that's a bad forward group. I really want to hear your criticism. Because I can't comprehend how anyone can actually respond to that question and make me agree with them. That forward group is definitely good enough to win at least a couple games by now. That's not a bad roster over there, except for the defense, but again, DeBoer isn't utilizing Fayne and Larsson at all. I don't fully understand your last statement, but how am I not holding Dineen to the same standard? If anyone, Zero is not holding DeBoer to same standard. He was great before when his roster actually "had talent in NJ". He was still great last season....and now they replace Kovalchuk with Jagr, add other scorers as well, but now that team is so terribly awful. It doesn't compute. Kovalchuk was one of the best forwards in the league, I get that, but losing him and halfway replacing him isn't going to turn a good team into a freaking awful team. Kovalchuk is not Wayne Gretzky. He doesn't have that kind of impact on a team.
I didn't tell you it's a bad forward group. It's a great forward group, Stanley Cup Finals worthy even...if you have Kovalchuk Clarkson AND Parise with that group. Perfect supporting cast, really. Without them they are a decent top 6. Without the timeless Elias, its a bad top 6.
Please stop with the Jagr Kovalchuk thing. The last time Jagr was truly in the same conversation as current-Kovalchuk was 2008, and to suggest otherwise is silly. Not even halfway right now.
Thing whole thing is about none of these proplayers are actually "bad"(save a few JovoMcKubroyov[tried to fit Semenov in lol] types). If they are not only just put in situations where their weaknesses are EASILY exposed, but not even placed as obviously compatible as possible-which is usually noticed by many(yes, I know- who caares what the invalid fan's brain computes), then they aren't doing the job that is within their realm and surely within reason and possibility...and both NJ and FL coaches are guilty as hell.

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10-15-2013, 02:41 PM
  #104
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I might have put my words wrong or you misunderstood because the above sounds like an argument though I agree with every fact you're stating. What I was trying to say was those guys have negatives and positives, it is up to Dineen to utilize the positives so the negatives don't matter. Some guys are supposed to be extra physical, the others rely on those guys so they can be as physical as they can. If even physical in the sense that they push their legs the extra stride. All of that starts and ends with the manager, just as in any business.
Alright, if you're talking about getting more effort and focus out of guys like Gilbert and Whitney, then I agree. I'd like to see that. I'm not giving Dineen a total pass. But if you're talking about getting them to be physical and playing like edgy defensive d-men, which is what I thought you were saying, then that's beyond reasonable expectations. Gilbert and Whitney are never going to be physical game in game out consistently. That's not who they are, and no coach is ever going to change that.


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Not sorry, but Tim Thomas is a top 5-10 goalie. Markstrom is at least as good as Schneider. I think we'd both be happy to know I got this one Oh bold leads me to ask, since I can't believe I never have..have you ever played in net yourself? I'm not gonna hear the numbers BS, what if Tim was behind the team vs Pittsburgh? Until we see that effort/situation in front of Tim, no more mention of numbers.
Sorry for not doing a good job of not sounding like an AH, but we have have the better top 2 for sure.
How is Markstrom at least as good as Schneider? Schneider is way more proven and has performed better. And I'm one of the biggest Markstrom fans there is. Markstrom is still trying to establish himself as a fulltime NHL goalie, and there's nothing wrong with that. That's where he is in his progression. Schneider is ahead of him, he's older, has more experience, and has performed better over a longer period of time. There's no basis to say Markstrom is better, or even equal.

Have I ever played net myself? Yes actually, although that's not my preferred position. I'm not saying just look at the numbers, but they are pretty atrocious, and he's been far from perfect so far. But again, he hasn't played enough. I want to see more of him before I even really judge where he's at right now. I just don't know how you can say he's top 5-10 in the league right now, no questions asked, considering everything. If he has several more great performances, then yes, we can start talking about top 5-10. He took a year off and he's pushing 40. That's just the reality of the situation.


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OK, that's a terrible insult to Mike Weaver. He'd be more reliable to any Atlantic area goaltender than anyone.
Soupy should be able to perform with whoever? Jovo McCabe Kuba anyone?
How about when we've seen Guds and Kuli together its been great, makes lots of sense that we haven't seen it more often.
Our roster including our bottom 3 of 7 in Gilbert Gilroy and Whitney IS better because I wouldn't take anyone in NJ over Guds, Kuli, Weaver, and Soup.
Brennan would've made the above statement 5. Petro 6. No reason either one of aren't on our current roster.
It's never pointless to mention Brennan. That was 10x worse then the Grabner (at least understandable)**** up.
I don't see how it's an insult to Mike Weaver. Dude, do you think Mike Weaver should be a #1 d-man on any playoff contender? We all love Mike Weaver, but he's a #4-5 d-man. He's a total team guy, blocks a ton of shots, hits, is great on the PK, plays his heart out...but he's not someone who should be performing as your best d-man night in and night out, unless you are a bottom feeder. Are you really saying otherwise?

Of course most players will play better if better utilized, but you can't just give players a total pass because of who they're playing with. They are being paid a lot of money to perform up to expectations. Who they are playing is not the reason for the mess we've been seeing. I'm not saying that I wouldn't like to switch up the pairs, but these guys should be better, regardless of who their partner is. Brennan isn't on our roster! So yes, he is pointless to mention. There is a reason Petro isn't on our roster as well, Nate has gone over it a bunch of times. He's not here, he's not on our roster. So he can't be brought up when comparing rosters. Our blueline SHOULD be better, no doubt about it, but performance wise, it's pretty close right now with the way these guys are playing. And performance is all that counts because what good would it do DeBoer if he had a 'better blueline' but it was performing just as bad as his current one?


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I didn't tell you it's a bad forward group. It's a great forward group, Stanley Cup Finals worthy even...if you have Kovalchuk Clarkson AND Parise with that group. Perfect supporting cast, really. Without them they are a decent top 6. Without the timeless Elias, its a bad top 6.
Please stop with the Jagr Kovalchuk thing. The last time Jagr was truly in the same conversation as current-Kovalchuk was 2008, and to suggest otherwise is silly. Not even halfway right now.
Thing whole thing is about none of these proplayers are actually "bad"(save a few JovoMcKubroyov[tried to fit Semenov in lol] types). If they are not only just put in situations where their weaknesses are EASILY exposed, but not even placed as obviously compatible as possible-which is usually noticed by many(yes, I know- who caares what the invalid fan's brain computes), then they aren't doing the job that is within their realm and surely within reason and possibility...and both NJ and FL coaches are guilty as hell.
My point is, it's a decent forward group, as you said. Just like ours. Not superb, not bad, but decent.

I never said Jagr is in the same conversation as Kovalchuk. What I said was losing Kovalchuk should not drop them from a middle of the pack team to a bottom feeder, when they've brought in a couple top 6 guys. And like I pointed out, it really doesn't have much to do with Kovy. The Devils have 10 regulation wins in their last 43 games played. They have 2 wins in their last 22 road games. The same problems were there last season, with Kovy on the roster.

Yes, it is the coach's job to get the most out of his players. But unlike DeBoer, Dineen is trying different things, but we see the same things over and over. Versteeg going off on his own, trying to stickhandle through the opposing team and losing the puck, the same guys making the same mistakes and simple errors. And they've been playing with different players. Some guys just aren't coming ready to play. I really hope Dineen benches Versteeg if he pulls another turd from his arsenal. He's already scratched Upshall, though he's far from the problem. If some guys continue to have bad games, I want to see them scratched, I don't care who they are. Though, for a head coach, that takes huge stones. Either it works, or you get fired.

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10-15-2013, 05:34 PM
  #105
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Alright, if you're talking about getting more effort and focus out of guys like Gilbert and Whitney, then I agree. I'd like to see that. I'm not giving Dineen a total pass. But if you're talking about getting them to be physical and playing like edgy defensive d-men, which is what I thought you were saying, then that's beyond reasonable expectations. Gilbert and Whitney are never going to be physical game in game out consistently. That's not who they are, and no coach is ever going to change that.
Now at the same page.


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How is Markstrom at least as good as Schneider? Schneider is way more proven and has performed better. And I'm one of the biggest Markstrom fans there is. Markstrom is still trying to establish himself as a fulltime NHL goalie, and there's nothing wrong with that. That's where he is in his progression. Schneider is ahead of him, he's older, has more experience, and has performed better over a longer period of time. There's no basis to say Markstrom is better, or even equal.
Style, poise, how he's done under certain circumstances that Schneider's really never had to deal with being on a Prez Trophy Team...and now never will under Lou's watch.

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Have I ever played net myself? Yes actually, although that's not my preferred position. I'm not saying just look at the numbers, but they are pretty atrocious, and he's been far from perfect so far. But again, he hasn't played enough. I want to see more of him before I even really judge where he's at right now. I just don't know how you can say he's top 5-10 in the league right now, no questions asked, considering everything. If he has several more great performances, then yes, we can start talking about top 5-10. He took a year off and he's pushing 40. That's just the reality of the situation.
The two times in my life that I took a year off, I came back better mentally and caught up physically real quick. The dude wasn't sitting on a couch with a millionaire's supply of Entermanns as everyone thinks! He was top 5 then, he's at least Top 10 now depending on Dineen and Murphy's decisions.

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I don't see how it's an insult to Mike Weaver. Dude, do you think Mike Weaver should be a #1 d-man on any playoff contender? We all love Mike Weaver, but he's a #4-5 d-man. He's a total team guy, blocks a ton of shots, hits, is great on the PK, plays his heart out...but he's not someone who should be performing as your best d-man night in and night out, unless you are a bottom feeder. Are you really saying otherwise?
I am saying otherwise. As a goalie I take him over most of the league. He was our best shutdown guy(with the Bomb as very close 2nd) when we were a Jovanovski benching away from beating the Stanley Cup Finalists. You forgot to mention he's the first to the front of the net esp when someone appears to needs his stick lifted, he ignores his size and anyone else's, and he NEVER takes the night off.
Just really what in the hell says he's a 4-5 dman when he's more reliable to a goalie than most players in the whole ****ing league?? I can't believe all this outta you MR!!

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Of course most players will play better if better utilized, but you can't just give players a total pass because of who they're playing with. They are being paid a lot of money to perform up to expectations. Who they are playing is not the reason for the mess we've been seeing. I'm not saying that I wouldn't like to switch up the pairs, but these guys should be better, regardless of who their partner is. Brennan isn't on our roster! So yes, he is pointless to mention. There is a reason Petro isn't on our roster as well, Nate has gone over it a bunch of times. He's not here, he's not on our roster. So he can't be brought up when comparing rosters. Our blueline SHOULD be better, no doubt about it, but performance wise, it's pretty close right now with the way these guys are playing. And performance is all that counts because what good would it do DeBoer if he had a 'better blueline' but it was performing just as bad as his current one?
Mitch Hedberg said it best "...you can cook, can you farm?"

In case you forgot, the money players are paid is for the chemistry they had when earning the contract. Unless your denying the importance of chemistry, you have to acknowledge the fact that the guys that get to stay with those they have been seen putting numbers up with aren't even considered in these conversations.
Flash Weiss Versteeg.



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My point is, it's a decent forward group, as you said. Just like ours. Not superb, not bad, but decent.

I never said Jagr is in the same conversation as Kovalchuk. What I said was losing Kovalchuk should not drop them from a middle of the pack team to a bottom feeder, when they've brought in a couple top 6 guys. And like I pointed out, it really doesn't have much to do with Kovy. The Devils have 10 regulation wins in their last 43 games played. They have 2 wins in their last 22 road games. The same problems were there last season, with Kovy on the roster.
We have a much better than decent forward group. Hurt/developing, but even so, better than decent.
I don't care what the anyone says, we took a top 5 team to the hole, and BOTH teams were on their game. Embarrassed PIT fans will say they were just off, and some point proving folk will agree not to get too excited...**** that, we saw what we could do against a top team. Also, as much as the refs were showing who the league's pet is, we shut them down too.

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Yes, it is the coach's job to get the most out of his players. But unlike DeBoer, Dineen is trying different things, but we see the same things over and over. Versteeg going off on his own, trying to stickhandle through the opposing team and losing the puck, the same guys making the same mistakes and simple errors. And they've been playing with different players. Some guys just aren't coming ready to play. I really hope Dineen benches Versteeg if he pulls another turd from his arsenal. He's already scratched Upshall, though he's far from the problem. If some guys continue to have bad games, I want to see them scratched, I don't care who they are. Though, for a head coach, that takes huge stones. Either it works, or you get fired.
As a lifelong Kovalev follower, it was a treat to see Straka and Lang feed off Kovalev's constant need to stickhandle thru guys STOP, forget that-while you were watching Versteeg lose the puck, I was watching his teammates standing around watching him instead of getting open? Stickhandling nasties DO have the ability to pass in the middle of any move they are making WHEN THEY SEE THE OPEN PASS LANE. Flash and Steeg did NOT do that, they moved around accordingly.
As great as I feel about Matthias, Kopecky, and Bergenheim- they have a very ===>>>>>> approach. Where chemistry disproves your $$$ statement, with these 3 damn valuable pieces is that any one of them would generally not know whether to **** or shine their shoes when their linemate's making moves instead of just ====>>>>. But those three together??? I can't wait to see Bergy healthy to see him with at least Matthias again!

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10-15-2013, 09:14 PM
  #106
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Same system every night. This team needs some type of change and motivation.

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10-15-2013, 10:08 PM
  #107
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You can lack talent and play good team defense. We play awful team defense. That's on the coaching staff. That needs to be fixed. Either Dineen and co. fix it soon or they should be sent packing. Effort overall is still inconsistent which is not encouraging.

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10-16-2013, 05:27 PM
  #108
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Please donīt kill me i laughed so hard. Ed Belfour as a head coach i canīt stop laughing.

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10-16-2013, 05:46 PM
  #109
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Serious question: Can somebody tell me what kind of system we play? It doesn't really look like much of anything on the ice. It just looks like reactionary hockey to me. We don't forecheck hard, or backcheck hard. We're bad in the defensive zone, and don't really do much of anything in the neutral zone.

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10-16-2013, 06:04 PM
  #110
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Serious question: Can somebody tell me what kind of system we play? It doesn't really look like much of anything on the ice. It just looks like reactionary hockey to me. We don't forecheck hard, or backcheck hard. We're bad in the defensive zone, and don't really do much of anything in the neutral zone.
That what it is we donīt have any gameplan, Dineen should go.Even Belfour could make some kind of gameplan.

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10-16-2013, 07:51 PM
  #111
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then dineen can take another team to the stanley cup in his first season out of here like deboer

its not the coaches fault that we're just not that great. we could have any coach and it probably wouldnt change that much.

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10-16-2013, 08:26 PM
  #112
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Serious question: Can somebody tell me what kind of system we play? It doesn't really look like much of anything on the ice. It just looks like reactionary hockey to me. We don't forecheck hard, or backcheck hard. We're bad in the defensive zone, and don't really do much of anything in the neutral zone.
I think Dineen is trying to play a puck possession style, that utilizes the strengths of different players. That's what we did in 11-12. Although, he keeps saying he wants his players to play a more simple game, so I don't really know what he's preaching. I think we'd be better off playing a little bit of a trap. We just can't play a high tempo puck possession game with this group. Maybe in years to come but not right now.

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10-16-2013, 09:52 PM
  #113
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then dineen can take another team to the stanley cup in his first season out of here like deboer

its not the coaches fault that we're just not that great. we could have any coach and it probably wouldnt change that much.
This team is more talented than when the Panthers won the division, so I don't think it's a good excuse.

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10-16-2013, 10:48 PM
  #114
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then dineen can take another team to the stanley cup in his first season out of here like deboer

its not the coaches fault that we're just not that great. we could have any coach and it probably wouldnt change that much.
Completely disagree, the team looks discombobulated far too often, having trouble getting the puck out of our zone or transitioning effectively into offense.

I don't know what Patrick Roy is doing in Colorado, but maybe Dineen should start paying attention and incorporating some of their gameplan.

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10-17-2013, 02:19 AM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I May Be Wrong View Post
Serious question: Can somebody tell me what kind of system we play? It doesn't really look like much of anything on the ice. It just looks like reactionary hockey to me. We don't forecheck hard, or backcheck hard. We're bad in the defensive zone, and don't really do much of anything in the neutral zone.
From what I see most times, we play a puck possession, 1-2-2 offense, with 1 forward always going in deep and chasing the puck. You can also see the 1-2-2 set up pretty clearly when the opposition breaks out against us.

I think we need to move to a more 2-1-2 and stress the battles on the boards and in the corners. Send two guys deep, leave a man high to cover and try and move the puck.

Then get pucks on net and just crash it. Crash the net. Send 2 forwards to the net and leave one on the perimeter. We're not going to score a ton of wristers off the half boards. We're going to score garbage, trashy hockey goals.

Defensively we are just a mess. At times it looks like we play a serious collapse, with all the forwards dropping down to the net when the puck gets down there. At other times, the forwards press the defense, often getting out of position to allow a shot to the net. We are absolutely horrible at clearing pucks from our net. We need 3 or 4 tries before it goes anywhere. I don't even know where to begin suggesting what Dineen should do. The last couple of games they've gotten better at clearing the puck along the boards (which is just pathetic if you ask me, that is hockey 101 people), but they still do it. I find our biggest problem to be behind the net. Either a defender rushes a clear, botches a pass, or gets owned along the boards and loses the puck. The team looks incredibly nervous in our own end. Almost scared.

Also, Dineen's umbrella powerplay needs to go. We're talented enough to pass it around and make it look nice, but we're not talented enough to finish. As I've said for the last two weeks, put Kopecky in front of the net and fire away. Simply putting one player in front of the goalie causes absolute havoc for the opposing team. I cannot understand how Dineen doesn't see this.

Even Tuesday night against Nashville in the final minute, we barely had anyone in front of the net. Everyone on the perimeter. Last time I checked, the only Panther to consistently score from the perimeter on a consistent basis was a dude name Pavel.


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10-17-2013, 09:31 PM
  #116
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I voted to keep KD, but I'm on board to replace him to shake things up. It unacceptable to not make a change because changes were made in the past and stability is needed. If the stability sucks, fix it. How can a long suffering fan base be told ad naseum, for infinity, that this club will improve, when it doesn't?

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10-17-2013, 10:06 PM
  #117
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any notable names out there except laviolette and boucher?

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10-17-2013, 11:05 PM
  #118
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any notable names out there except laviolette and boucher?
Maurice?

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10-18-2013, 12:00 AM
  #119
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I just don't see Dineen getting us any farther than he did 2 seasons ago. It's always possible, but this system he uses is way too predictable.

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10-18-2013, 12:23 AM
  #120
FrolikFan67
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doug gilmour could maybe be someone to look at as well. and he coached gudbranson in kingston too.

keep in mind we also lost 3 1-goal games, if we got at least a point, if not won those games, we might not be having this discussion. if thomas didnt let that trickler go in today, if he didnt get injured on that 2nd goal in philly, and if markstrom couldve at least had that last goal back during that preds game we'd be looking different.

we sit at 4pts, 7pts if we at least went into ot in those games, 10 if we could have pulled off a win. thats anywhere from 4-10pts that we easily couldve had. i know those games are in the past now, but the fact is a little bounce here, a save there, and we very easily couldve had a very different record, just some dumb luck.


Last edited by FrolikFan67: 10-18-2013 at 12:29 AM.
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10-18-2013, 12:27 AM
  #121
Ghoste
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If Dineen departs, I'd hope we'd get a veteran coach. Let rookie coaches find their way with some other team.

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10-18-2013, 09:43 AM
  #122
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Even getting an extra point or two in the past games would still have us well below .500... We need to set our standards higher. This roster is more talented than the level they are playing at.

I like Dineen, but his coaching isn't working. When an entire team plays poorly at the same time, it's rarely a result of players slacking. It's usually them trying to follow a coaching system/gameplan that isn't working well.

I have seen us play back too often against teams seen as offense-minded to consider it a coincidence.

This team plays best when it's aggressive and creating turnovers with their forecheck. Dineen has been playing it safe too often.

Personally, I would like to get Laviolette in here. He's a proven NHL coach with a Cup and ****ton of playoff experience and his aggressive coaching style meshes perfectly with the roster of players we have (Big, fast, grinders).

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10-18-2013, 12:21 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killerinstinct View Post
Please donīt kill me i laughed so hard. Ed Belfour as a head coach i canīt stop laughing.
It does beg the question: what's the longest suspension any NHL head coach ever received? I'd be willing to bet Eddie would eclipse that one in his first game

I'm beginning to be of a mind though that Dineen needs to go - there was no rhyme or reason to the way the team was playing last night, and I'm thinking coaching is the main issue now.

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10-18-2013, 03:00 PM
  #124
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i wanted laviolette as soon as the canes let him go, i was pissed when the flyers got him. id like to see him here.

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10-18-2013, 03:29 PM
  #125
hockeydude1
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We can't get much worse. If Dineen were to get canned, Lavy would be the best choice. He's the only one that really has a good veteran career.

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