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Old
11-12-2013, 09:08 AM
  #601
gallagt01
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post

i'll have have faith in the future when we have a #1 center, a shutdown center, and 2 shutdown pairs... lol
(and of course, the point is... the path we are on is the best possible path to acquire those needed assets)
I would argue that those pieces may already be in place. Time will tell. Grigorenko is a PPG player in his last three contests, after all.

Jame, what are your thoughts on Regier using the Sabres' first-rounder on Dal Colle (who projects as a winger at the next level)?

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11-12-2013, 07:05 PM
  #602
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the preds are tanking hard right now

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11-12-2013, 09:15 PM
  #603
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Amazingly, the Panthers beat the Ducks tonight. Wow.

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11-12-2013, 09:33 PM
  #604
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Amazingly, the Panthers beat the Ducks tonight. Wow.
Yeah as I posted in the GBU it's not surprising. Anytime Buffalo has gained a point this season so have the teams "in front" of them. Same song and dance as last year. Calgary is coming back down to earth which will make things even more interesting.

I want this team to win above all else but a lot of these wins are going to be wasted on having piles of **** like Ville Leino in the line-up over Larsson and Grigorenko. Grigorenko gets benched for a turnover in the 1st and more than likely will be rotated out for Larsson when you could argue that Grigorenko's last two games before this one he was Buffalo's best forward with McCormick. So we win tonight and what does a player like Grigorenko ultimately take away from the W? That if he makes one mistake he's getting benched while every other player on the team makes 4-5 mistakes a game? It's really awesome that a "coach" who will never have a job in the NHL after this season is allowed to have long term negative effects on these kids who are 3-11 year investments for the Sabres.

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11-12-2013, 10:07 PM
  #605
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we have ONE regulation win in TWENTY games and we are in a dogfight with about 5 teams for the worst record, that's hard to believe

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11-12-2013, 10:27 PM
  #606
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we have ONE regulation win in TWENTY games and we are in a dogfight with about 5 teams for the worst record, that's hard to believe
It's hard out there. For the cup contenders, and the tankers. There's no free lunch here, folks.

This post in the Yakupov thread by a sharp Edmonton poster known as Spawn got me really thinking about our future:

Quote:
Haven't read much of the thread.

I'm just going to say that I wasn't a fan of the way some of the media members where throwing out their questions at Yakupov. Those were some loaded questions and I think that some were taking advantage of the situation.

In particular I'll call out Ryan Rishaug (who seems to harp on anything Yakupov does each and every morning on 1260). He asks Yak these questions which Yakupov does his best to answer (despite clearly being very uncomfortable) and then Ryan basically asks him Why are you coming out saying these things in the media? He's saying these things in the media because dudes like you are asking them Ryan...

20 year old kid who is clearly upset and frustrated and he is just getting absolutely grilled by a hound of media members all seemingly salivating at making the kid look as bad as possible.

Ryan Rishaug has no problem asking the tough questions when it comes to a 20 year old kid who doesn't speak great English. Where is he to be found when MacT is being interviewed? Some of these guys haven't seemed to like Yakupov from the beginning and they are just reveling in the this right now. I'd like to think that we are all above it, but I imagine lots of it boils down to Yak being a Russian.

All that being said. Yakupov probably should have just said no comment and left it at that (I realize at one point he did say he didn't want to talk about it, but he should have been a little more firm). Neither he nor Larionov have worked to make this situation better.

What a disaster this season has become. What a disaster the last 5 or so years have been. Sadly there is no end in sight and things somehow always seem to just get worse.
Vital perspective as we move forward into the great unknown.

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11-12-2013, 10:38 PM
  #607
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Vital perspective as we move forward into the great unknown.
If we had drafted two forwards last year and then went into this draft and took a forward like Nylander I would be really worried. But we have tons of depth in our prospect pool and some versatility outside of goalscoring wingers. Edmonton seriously only has the 1st round picks they've recently made. Like I said in another thread other than Kevin Lowe the organization's biggest problem is they couldn't spot an NHL player outside of the 1st round if it was tattooed on their forehead. Depending on how much you like Martin Marincin you have to go back to 2006 to find a player drafted by Edmonton outside of the 1st round who is an NHL caliber player. Rajala can be one if he ever comes back over but that's it and he's more of the same. Absolutely horrible drafting by Edmonton. To put it into perspective if JT Compher makes the NHL which he will, the Sabres will more or less have drafted as well as the Oilers did outside of the 1st round from 2006-2009 in just 1 draft.

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11-12-2013, 11:16 PM
  #608
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If we had drafted two forwards last year and then went into this draft and took a forward like Nylander I would be really worried. But we have tons of depth in our prospect pool and some versatility outside of goalscoring wingers. Edmonton seriously only has the 1st round picks they've recently made. Like I said in another thread other than Kevin Lowe the organization's biggest problem is they couldn't spot an NHL player outside of the 1st round if it was tattooed on their forehead. Depending on how much you like Martin Marincin you have to go back to 2006 to find a player drafted by Edmonton outside of the 1st round who is an NHL caliber player. Rajala can be one if he ever comes back over but that's it and he's more of the same. Absolutely horrible drafting by Edmonton. To put it into perspective if JT Compher makes the NHL which he will, the Sabres will more or less have drafted as well as the Oilers did outside of the 1st round from 2006-2009 in just 1 draft.
This is misleading. The only two regulars drafted by Bufffalo outside the first round between 2006-2009 of note are Foligno and Tropp. That's hardly tipping the scales of talent in our favor, especially considering the array of talent the Oil have assembled with those high end first rounders.

There is no magic formula that takes us to the promise land, even if we're only playing the probabilities. Understanding what could go wrong and the darker side of tanking is simply -- again -- the other side of the coin.

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11-13-2013, 12:10 AM
  #609
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This is misleading. The only two regulars drafted by Bufffalo outside the first round between 2006-2009 of note are Foligno and Tropp.
And Weber and Enroth. But that's exactly my point. The fact that we drafted so bad in that time frame is one of the reasons the team is in the position it's in. Edmonton started their rebuild in 2009 and all they have to show for it is their 1st round picks. Unless you can supplement poor post 1st round drafting with UFAs and trades which Edmonton has not no 1st round picks in the world will carry you.

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11-14-2013, 09:44 AM
  #610
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So listening to the latest press conferences, it seems they are in fact gunning for top picks in the next couple of drafts.

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11-14-2013, 11:33 AM
  #611
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So listening to the latest press conferences, it seems they are in fact gunning for top picks in the next couple of drafts.
Teams don't do that intentionally!!!!
It's not a strategy!!!!

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11-14-2013, 11:37 AM
  #612
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So listening to the latest press conferences, it seems they are in fact gunning for top picks in the next couple of drafts.


I wonder what Bucky will say. He seemed all over this move yesterday, but also slipped in a comment about how a full rebuild was never necessary.

This is very much going to be the same dish, different chef. Which suits me fine because it's what I ordered and I think I don't trust Darcy in the long run to put the finishing touches on a contender.

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11-14-2013, 11:38 AM
  #613
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Teams don't do that intentionally!!!!
It's not a strategy!!!!
I missed where they said they were planning on losing for the next 4-6 years.

And your obsession with this is creepy.

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11-14-2013, 11:42 AM
  #614
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So listening to the latest press conferences, it seems they are in fact gunning for top picks in the next couple of drafts.
I do wonder if they'd be saying drafts* if McDavid was 2014 eligible.

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11-14-2013, 12:08 PM
  #615
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I do wonder if they'd be saying drafts* if McDavid was 2014 eligible.
Probably. The kids need to improve and that is going to take time.

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11-14-2013, 12:39 PM
  #616
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Probably. The kids need to improve and that is going to take time.
They also need to make sure they supply the youth with some vets to lead the way; so it's not an Edmonton trap.

Reading a few of the Oiler threads this morning, they had some eerily similar thoughts/hopes back in 2007, that they do today.

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11-14-2013, 12:59 PM
  #617
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
my faith in the structure/plan for this rebuild?

Not sure what that means...

I believe this was the right course to pursue (tear it down, collect futures, build through the draft, etc). I mean, I've been preaching to take this approach for a few years...

My faith that it will work? I don't operate in the "faith" based world... whether it will work or not is dependent on a myriad of things over the course of multiple years... yes, i believe it was the correct path to take, and i am comfortable with the few pieces at the top directing the ship on the path (for now).

like you, im not wrapped up too much in the day to day details, it doesn't matter that much right now...

i love your description of the season as an extended training camp.

i'll have have faith in the future when we have a #1 center, a shutdown center, and 2 shutdown pairs... lol
(and of course, the point is... the path we are on is the best possible path to acquire those needed assets)

I missed this because your comment was the last one of the page and with all of the eventfulness of yesterday the thread slipped my attention but I just wanted to clarify by what I meant by faith in the plan. You and I, I think, are in pretty much lockstep about how a tear it down rebuild should be executed.

Where I think we differ is how much credit that the organization should get. We're now in a post-Regier world so a lot of this is subject to change but to put it succinctly (ask me for my pamphlet later!) I'm not convinced there is an organizational plan outside of winning the lottery. I may be wrong but I feel as though you are seeing them do some things you would do, so you're assuming they're doing most or all of the other things you would do. That's what I mean by faith, I held almost none in Regier and ownership as an extension and you, of course, did.

I know this is convenient considering the events of yesterday, wish I'd been able to get it out there before.

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11-14-2013, 12:59 PM
  #618
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I don't believe they're intentionally losing, they're just realistic about it.

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11-14-2013, 01:16 PM
  #619
Jame
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I missed where they said they were planning on losing for the next 4-6 years.

And your obsession with this is creepy.
it's funny, since you were kind of obsessive yourself in constantly dismissing other's opinions, and arguing that your perspective was fact...

Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Financially well off teams do not intentionally ice crappy teams that can pick in the top 5 for 3-5 years on purpose
you were wrong... own up.

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Its incredible how out to lunch on this you are.

Pegual is not going to sit back and watch this team finish at the bottom of the standings for several years in a row. No sane owner would.

Your analysis of "the pittsburgh model" was 100% accurate (ownership, financial issues)... but your personal dislike of a "tank strategy" led you to argue that the end result (top picks) was NOT something that a stable franchise with deep pockets would attempt to replicate intentionally.

And while the examples you continually provided as to "how" teams achieved those top picks, was also accurate, it clouded your perspective on how the strategy itself (tanking) could be pursued by our own team.

Im sure you will argue the difference between 2-3 years (the current plan in Buffalo) and 3-5 years/several years... minutae

Just to clarify... you do now accept that the Buffalo Sabres are pursuing a strategy of tanking for a top pick over the course of this, and next year (and one could argue that they pursued that strategy during the previous season when the cut the chord)

the current path, and statements from ownership... contradict you completely... Pegula WILL sit back and watch this team finish at the bottom for 3 years... and it is on purpose/it is the plan/it is a franchise building strategy... you were wrong.

my response at the time:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
he doesn't want to endure the losing, so he's come up with a theory as to why having "several" bad seasons in a row is simply not possible with a wealthy and stable ownership
you had a theory... that because the prime examples of "tank to contender" (pit, chi) were heavily related to ownership, financials, and luck.... that meant that the core of the strategy (tanking) was NOT something that a stable franchise with deep pockets would choose to pursue/endure.

again. you were wrong.

don't treat your comeuppance, like it's simply my obsession... you were pretty obsessed yourself, with your beliefs
:smile:


Last edited by Jame: 11-14-2013 at 01:33 PM.
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11-14-2013, 01:18 PM
  #620
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I missed this because your comment was the last one of the page and with all of the eventfulness of yesterday the thread slipped my attention but I just wanted to clarify by what I meant by faith in the plan. You and I, I think, are in pretty much lockstep about how a tear it down rebuild should be executed.

Where I think we differ is how much credit that the organization should get. We're now in a post-Regier world so a lot of this is subject to change but to put it succinctly (ask me for my pamphlet later!) I'm not convinced there is an organizational plan outside of winning the lottery. I may be wrong but I feel as though you are seeing them do some things you would do, so you're assuming they're doing most or all of the other things you would do. That's what I mean by faith, I held almost none in Regier and ownership as an extension and you, of course, did.

I know this is convenient considering the events of yesterday, wish I'd been able to get it out there before.
understood. and you are correct in that difference between us... but i would clarify that while you are saying you had zero faith, my position was not one of 100% faith. a fair characterization would be that i held a healthy amount of optimism... yes... and that is largely irrelevant now

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11-14-2013, 01:20 PM
  #621
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I'm not sure the Pittsburgh model can be replicated unless players the caliber of Malkin and Crosby are available in successive years' picks. Is that possible, realistically?

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11-14-2013, 01:22 PM
  #622
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I'm not sure the Pittsburgh model can be replicated unless players the caliber of Malkin and Crosby are available in successive years' picks. Is that possible, realistically?
Hopefully the Sabres get Reinhart and McDavid and we can find out...

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11-14-2013, 01:27 PM
  #623
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I look at the Oilers and how messed up that team is right now and I want nothing to do with intentionally tanking and rushing prospects which WE ARE doing right now. This is not shaping up to be a successful rebuild. You need solid veterans to surround these kids with or like Pat said the NHL will eat you alive!

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11-14-2013, 01:33 PM
  #624
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I'm not sure the Pittsburgh model can be replicated unless players the caliber of Malkin and Crosby are available in successive years' picks. Is that possible, realistically?
same "model"
different "data"

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11-14-2013, 01:52 PM
  #625
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4 Teams with a plethora of top 5 and top 10 picks and loads of picks in the top 2 rounds that still are horrible. Anyone want to go through a rebuild like one of these 4 teams? The concept of tanking=success is a myth that this board needs to understand.

The Edmonton Model:

2007: 6, 15, 21
2008: 22
2009: 10, 40
2010: 1, 31, 46, 48
2011: 1, 19, 31
2012: 1, 32
2013: 7, 56

Plus the addition of Justin Schultz.

The NYI Model:

2006: 7, 60
2008: 9, 36, 40, 53
2009: 1, 12, 31
2010: 5, 30
2011: 5, 34, 50
2012: 4, 34
2013: 15

The CBJ model:

2002: 1, 41
2003: 4, 46
2004: 8, 46, 59
2005: 6, 55
2006: 6, 36
2007: 7, 37, 53
2008: 6, 37
2009: 21, 56
2010: 4, 34, 55
2011: 37
2012: 2, 31
2013: 14, 19, 27, 50

Florida Panthers Model:

2001: 4, 24, 34
2002: 3, 9, 40
2003: 3, 25, 38, 55
2004: 7, 37, 53
2005: 20, 32
2006: 10
2007: 10, 40
2008: 31, 46,
2009: 14, 44
2010: 3, 19, 25, 33, 36, 50
2011: 3, 33, 59
2012: 23
2013: 2, 31


Last edited by EichHart: 11-14-2013 at 02:04 PM.
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