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Who's better, really?

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Old
10-14-2013, 04:03 AM
  #176
Mr. Hab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I wouldn't go that extreme. I don't like to compare different eras. It's like comparing different games. But he's definitely the best in today's league. No one compares to him.

I really like the Markov-PK duo, it's solid. Gorges, as I always thought, looks pretty ordinary when you don't pair him with another solid D.
I love the fact that you started this thread, but I'm also surprised (like you) when some people are not forgiving when it comes to PK Subban, but when it comes to others...they are more patient or more forgiving.

I was amazed by PK Subban from the first time he helped us in the playoffs...he was already one of our MVPs. I've always admired Doughty and Keith, but my favorite player (dman, forward or goalie) is by far PK Subban (and not just recently...from day 1). First time (imo) since Patrick Roy that we have one player who can make such a HUUUUUUUUGE impact for our team and for the entire NHL (major entertainment value). I think he'll be a threat to win the Norris EVERY season as long as he continues being an Iron-Man.

Still can't believe we (Timmins!) drafted him in the 2nd Rnd!! (unbelievable!).

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Old
10-14-2013, 11:56 AM
  #177
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
He definitely needs maturing, but in terms of skills, I don't think anybody can really compete.
I mean, if you want to look at precise facets, there's no way anybody is going to be better than Chara at clearing the front of the net. I don't think anybody will be as good as Karlsson at creating plays in the offensive zone (although he reminds me of a healthy Markov back in his prime).
But focusing on a single facet isn't how you should judge a dman overall. However, as you said, it all depends on what a person considers most important.
I think PK still has things to work on, but I don't think we should look at that and concluded that because of it, he's not ahead of his peers.
I don't think that this is the case. I think he just clearly has some maturing to do.

As for him holding onto the puck a little long... he always seems to get away with it. He gets away with it because he's really, really good. But he takes big risks.


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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I work in the fitness industry. I'm a strength and conditioning coach, I have my own gym. I can tell you, I get very solid athletes that come in thinking they're at their cream of the crop, and often, they're right. They really are freaking amazing. They dominate. But that doesn't mean they have nothing to fix.

I think that's where PK is at.
That IS where he's at. That's exactly what we're saying man. The guy is among the best in the league and might even be the best. A couple of details to work on though.

Even if he doesn't fix it though he's still a wicked, wicked blueliner and might still be the best.

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I think he really is above his peers. I think he's the best in the league right now because nobody does as much as he does, as well as he does. Nobody is as complete as he is.
You have guys like Keith or Doughty, that bring what PK does, just a very solid overall game. They can shutdown opponents, they can move the puck up, they have very strong skating abilities, they can hit players hard, they have great mobility, great vision at both ends of the ice, they can kill a penalty as good as anybody else and produce very well on the PP. They can pretty much toy their opponents around. Really, they can tease them and embarrass them.
But for some reason, whether it's in the media, or his own coach/teammate and fans, PK just doesn't get the recognition he deserves.
Well I agree. He's underrated by the media. Don't know why this is (the MDZ comparisons were ludicrous and plentiful) but I think part of it is that he's cocky. His first game and he's chirping Crosby, the low high five, the trash talking, whining to refs... it turns off the old boys network.

Too bad they weren't able to put it aside and look at things a little more objectively but it's a reflection on them not Subban. All this did was hurt Dreger's credibility and if anyone was ever in an actual debate with him, Subban would be something to throw in his face.

And if I were on the panel with him, I'd throw it in his face for years to get him to shut up.

Five years from now:

"Hey Darren... remember when you said PK shouldn't be on Team Canada"


"Yeah yeah, okay I get it"

"Hey, remember how you compared this guy to MDZ?"

"Okay, okay, hahaha, you've had your fun"

"What are you even doing on this panel anyway? All you ever do is sit there and ask stupid questions like: 'Will he be good or will he not be good? Your guess is as good as mine. For TSN, I'm Darren Dreger.' I mean seriously man, what kind of stupid **** is that?"


"Alright you've made your point"

"Hey how about this as a segement? 'I'm Darren Dreger, will PK Subban be as good as MDZ? Nobody knows. I certainly don't because I don't like to take a stand on anything because I don't know the first thing about hockey.' etc...."


Then Bob Mackenzie, Darren Pang and Aron Ward join in. Until Bob and I rip apart Ward for the stupid Iginla report and Pang for the 'White way' comment...

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
My point about me training athletes is that no matter how good, or mature, they are, they always have things to improve on or adapt to. There is no complacency. For whatever PK needs to work on, I think he's ahead in the other departments and that his flaws do not outweigh his strengths.
Well, everyone agrees with you here.
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I don't think it's much of an issue whether people think PK is the top Dman, or top 5, or top 10. As you said, it can come down to simply a preference of style.
However, if we're going to argue about who's the best, to me it means the most well rounded, and I think PK dominates that category. And I don't think discipline really matters. Taking penalties can be due to so many different things. So pinning that against a player is just unfair imo.
Not to mention, I'm pretty convinced most people here have no idea how often others fighting for that crown take dumb penalties.
It's just dishonest.

I fully agree. But what ''scares'' me (it doesn't really scares me..I have my life and it's a lot more important than any Habs player or game, but for the purpose of the discussion) is that whatever Dreger says isn't actually his opinion, but it's what people above him (say Team Canada management) believe. He just lays it out so people can have it in their mind. If PK doesn't get chosend for Team Canada, people will look at the CGY end of game instance. That's not because PK actually committed an error, that happens. It'll be because Dreger talked about it.
Trust me, Dreger's opinion doesn't mean ****. He won't affect whether PK makes the squad or not. Yzerman's not an idiot.

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
So in the end, PK gets a bad rep.
PK has a bad rep of his own making. Others may exaggerate it but Subban needs to smarten up.
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I know people working in the industry, sports telecommunication. I know guys working for RDS. I've had conversations with them. They all told me the same thing. e
Their opinions matter very little. They are there to entertain and create attention, because that means ratings.
Gaston Therrien isn't as dumb as he appears. Same of PJ Stock. They just stir up the pot because that's their role.
I've had discussions with PJ Stock off the record because he trains in the studio next to mine. In real life, he isn't the ****** habs hating guy that he portrays.
He's a dumbass.
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What I find sad though is that all these guys actually love PK, and they think he's absolutely awesome, but for the sake of viewership, they have to create storylines.
That's why you have RDS cut short the interview of PK saying how the practice was bad. The full footage shows that PK actually says the poor effort is 100% on the players, not the coach. He's very clear about that.
But they cut it short so they can fill out a show.

Anyways, it's pretty late. I might have had a few too many beers. But all this to say, the image of PK is getting tarnished over, and over again, and I think that's why people don't view him as the consensus #1.
Say it's race, say it's because he's a hab, say whatever. But if he was a good controlled kid a la Galchenyuk, he would be absolutely loved.
If he doesn't want to be the story, he should talk less and whine to the refs less. The media is going to do what it's going to do. And even ignoring them (as we should) - he simply does this too much.
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
It was excessive, no doubt, and I think the refs actually were lenient. You can't do that. Even if you think you'll get away with it, it's not a risk you take so late in the game with one goal down.
However, I don't think it absolutely annulled what he did before. The way he controlled the play before, with his vision, with his skating and stickhandling abilities, with his passion and intensity, you can't simply dismiss it because he took a penalty.
I'm not saying it annuls anything. I'm citing it as an example of his immaturity. And he was chirping the refs again on Saturday. He's just doing it too much. He needs to shut up and let his play do the talking.

Again, this wouldn't prevent me from taking him first among blueliners, just an area he needs to improve on.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 10-14-2013 at 12:04 PM.
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Old
10-14-2013, 03:45 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hab View Post
I love the fact that you started this thread, but I'm also surprised (like you) when some people are not forgiving when it comes to PK Subban, but when it comes to others...they are more patient or more forgiving.

I was amazed by PK Subban from the first time he helped us in the playoffs...he was already one of our MVPs. I've always admired Doughty and Keith, but my favorite player (dman, forward or goalie) is by far PK Subban (and not just recently...from day 1). First time (imo) since Patrick Roy that we have one player who can make such a HUUUUUUUUGE impact for our team and for the entire NHL (major entertainment value). I think he'll be a threat to win the Norris EVERY season as long as he continues being an Iron-Man.

Still can't believe we (Timmins!) drafted him in the 2nd Rnd!! (unbelievable!).
We were lucky to get him in the 2nd. He was projected to be a first rounder at the time and I was suprised he fell to us. GMs obviously just didn't believe in his D.

And you can see why too. He holds onto the puck in risky situations (more than maybe he should) but like I said, he always seems to protect the puck and make the play. He used to get burned on this but it's happening less and less. The guy knows what he's capable of and is very good at puck control.

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10-14-2013, 03:57 PM
  #179
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I remember hearding on TSN 690 this saturday some ******** by one of Marinaro's co-host. He claimed the only reason Subban hasn't already been resigned is because Montreal is an inherently rascist and xenophobe town.

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Old
10-14-2013, 04:23 PM
  #180
habs88
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
I remember hearding on TSN 690 this saturday some ******** by one of Marinaro's co-host. He claimed the only reason Subban hasn't already been resigned is because Montreal is an inherently rascist and xenophobe town.
What the hell is wrong with people lmfaoooooo

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10-14-2013, 04:35 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
I remember hearding on TSN 690 this saturday some ******** by one of Marinaro's co-host. He claimed the only reason Subban hasn't already been resigned is because Montreal is an inherently rascist and xenophobe town.
Jackie Robinson says hello.

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Old
10-14-2013, 04:43 PM
  #182
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Jackie Robinson says hello.
1946 says hello.

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Old
10-15-2013, 02:57 PM
  #183
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
I remember hearding on TSN 690 this saturday some ******** by one of Marinaro's co-host. He claimed the only reason Subban hasn't already been resigned is because Montreal is an inherently rascist and xenophobe town.
Who was that?

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Old
10-15-2013, 03:25 PM
  #184
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Dreger is to Lafleurs Guy what Stubbs is to me... and I love it.

As for Subban - no I don't think he's the best dman in the league and I think his cerebral game (positioning especially) has room to improve. But I won't be able to point out the most effective "best" dman in the league, I just know it's premature to say that Subban is the best.

He's no Lidstrom, he's no Neidermayer, he's no Pronger. Those guys were clear-cut best players.

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10-15-2013, 03:42 PM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Who was that?
No idea who. It was on saturday afternoon, Marinaro & Co were in some pubs, hosting their show. Maybe it was Connor McKinna? Can't confirm

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Old
10-15-2013, 04:34 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
But I won't be able to point out the most effective "best" dman in the league, I just know it's premature to say that Subban is the best.
You know what else is premature?

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