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Why the Hertl goal doesn't bother me from a historical perspective

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Old
10-12-2013, 02:41 PM
  #1
Big Phil
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Why the Hertl goal doesn't bother me from a historical perspective

Alright, San Jose rookie Tomas Hertle had a 4 goal game the other day. The 4th goal was a play from the side of the net where he put his stick between his legs and scored. I thought it was brilliant and represents a lot of talent in hockey, which we like to see.

Some people took offense to it. Here is my take on the goal. He's a rookie for starters and he's going to get excited and try to be creative. We should never let that get in the way of anyone. Seconldy, he didn't gloat after the goal, it made it 8-2 and he didn't pull a Sean Avery after the goal.

Third, he was still playing in an NHL game. You know, I never understand this movement that you have to stop trying to score when the game is out of reach. If the score is 5-1 I am trying to get that 6th goal. Because my feeling is, if you don't try to score, then that is the true smack in the face against the other team, not actually TRYING to score. You keep playing your best regardless, or else it smacks of ignorance to the other team.

So, you know, the Rangers could have done something to Hertle, they could have stopped him. But they didn't. He shouldn't stop trying, and if he does what he does to score goals then it is your fault for being unable to stop him.

Lastly, it was a partial breakaway. That was a brilliant move that tricked the goalie. If the game is tied 2-2 I would nail him to the bench if he missed that low percentage shot, but he tried something new and the angle he was coming in from made sense for him to do that move. So I say give the kid a break. I'll also mention that there have been ample times when players have continued to play at a high level and certain times when I've seen a move between the legs. Such as:

Start watching at 1:45


Then this one, where Mario gets 5 goals in a game and makes it look easy



Bottom line is, if a team is going to let you score 5 goals in a game (or 4 for Hertle) then why fight it? Keep on trucking. Keep trying to score.

Of course if you score a goal and the score is 8-2, you use tact and don't jump around like you've won the lottery, but that's another story. What Hertle did was fine with me. You're offended with it? Then do yourself a favour and throw a hard check on the guy and try and STOP him.

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10-12-2013, 02:59 PM
  #2
vadim sharifijanov
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the other thing is, joe thornton's right in a way: the operative question is, have you ever played the game? when everything's going right and you've scored a hat trick, you're in the zone. you try things you'd never try outside of practice because you're running on adrenaline and instinct memory and confidence. you do things where a minute later you're on the bench and thinking to yourself, did i really pull that move to split two d-men? what made me think i'd pull that off? but you did, because you're in the zone. hard to crucify a guy for that.

and for the record, i've seen adam oates embarrass many a defender and/or goalie with crazy seeing eye passes in blowouts.

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10-12-2013, 04:24 PM
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It should be noted that 99% of hockey people and 100% of fans thought this was a non-issue and that Hertl's goal was awesome.

It was only a couple boneheads (Oates, Healy) whose dumb comments got a ton of mileage and airplay.

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10-12-2013, 04:24 PM
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What Oates said, it's a grumpy veteran thing. It's like when Martin St. Louis cried about Linus Omark's spinorama and then went on and did a spinorama himself. You can't do it, but I can. That's a bull mentality.

Hertl's goal was real nice.

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10-12-2013, 06:06 PM
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It's not the goal, its the celebration. When you score a goal to go ahead by 5 or 6, just act like you've done it before. No need for fist pumps, theatrics, etc...

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10-12-2013, 07:05 PM
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It's not the goal, its the celebration. When you score a goal to go ahead by 5 or 6, just act like you've done it before. No need for fist pumps, theatrics, etc...
Kid is 19 in his 3rd NHL game.

Was probably nervous as hell about coming over from Europe and whether he could compete in the NHL, and all of a sudden he's having a 4-goal game against the NY Rangers with his family in the stands and scoring a highlight-reel goal that will be shown across the world. Of course he's going to be stoked beyond belief - all his wildest dreams are coming true. NOBODY would do a nonchalant Barry Sanders celebration in that situation.

If a 10-year veteran acts like that in a blowout, sure. But not a teenager in his 3rd NHL game. People need to have a bit of a sense of perspective. And fun.

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10-12-2013, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by MS View Post
Kid is 19 in his 3rd NHL game.

Was probably nervous as hell about coming over from Europe and whether he could compete in the NHL, and all of a sudden he's having a 4-goal game against the NY Rangers with his family in the stands and scoring a highlight-reel goal that will be shown across the world. Of course he's going to be stoked beyond belief - all his wildest dreams are coming true. NOBODY would do a nonchalant Barry Sanders celebration in that situation.

If a 10-year veteran acts like that in a blowout, sure. But not a teenager in his 3rd NHL game. People need to have a bit of a sense of perspective. And fun.
Good points. I didn't realize he was European. Fun is definitely an element that should never be quashed. Good for the Rangers for not going berserk on him, although McClennan sat him the rest of the game to prevent that sort of thing.

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10-12-2013, 07:20 PM
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The fact that people were butt hurt about the goal in the first place was ****ing stupid. The fact that there are people who are still butt hurt about it is REALLY ****ing stupid.

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10-12-2013, 07:33 PM
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vadim sharifijanov
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speaking of the '93 season, does nobody remember:





but then i thought the NBA was a lot more fun when guys hung on the rim after big dunks and taunted the guys they dunked over.

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10-12-2013, 08:05 PM
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The fact that people were butt hurt about the goal in the first place was ****ing stupid. The fact that there are people who are still butt hurt about it is REALLY ****ing stupid.
So in other words, people cannot have varying opinions in your world. If that's the case, you're in the wrong place.

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10-12-2013, 08:18 PM
  #11
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What Oates said, it's a grumpy veteran thing. It's like when Martin St. Louis cried about Linus Omark's spinorama and then went on and did a spinorama himself. You can't do it, but I can. That's a bull mentality.

Hertl's goal was real nice.
Couldn't agree with you more. When people complain about these flashy plays (BTW the NHL is ENTERTAINMENT) they come off as grumpy old men. The only time you should complain about a flashy "unnecessary" play is when it cost you the game. Maybe my opinion on this will change as I approach 50, but as a 30ish year old person, I just don't have a problem with a flashy goal in a 9-2 game on.

 
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10-12-2013, 08:45 PM
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I do find it funny that people beat on Oates and others for sharing their opinion. Like it's an important matter anyhow.

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10-12-2013, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
It's not the goal, its the celebration. When you score a goal to go ahead by 5 or 6, just act like you've done it before. No need for fist pumps, theatrics, etc...
But it was such a beautiful goal. He has the right to celebrate something that great.

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10-12-2013, 09:24 PM
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But it was such a beautiful goal. He has the right to celebrate something that great.
It's a generational thing. Players this day in age have more flair because they grew up with other sports/media that is dominated by it. (agreeing with you as a younger person on the history of hockey subforum).

 
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10-12-2013, 09:44 PM
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What a load of crap! Score when you can, celebrate when you score. Don't care what the score is.

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10-12-2013, 09:54 PM
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So in other words, people cannot have varying opinions in your world. If that's the case, you're in the wrong place.
Lol, Where did I say that anywhere? Not sure where you got that from. In my varying opinion, I don't see anything wrong at all with Hertl's actions and think it's silly people are mad.

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10-13-2013, 12:08 AM
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Lol, Where did I say that anywhere? Not sure where you got that from. In my varying opinion, I don't see anything wrong at all with Hertl's actions and think it's silly people are mad.
Calling people f-ing stupid for not seeing it your way is disregarding and disrespecting other people and their opinions. Its plain ignorant. Your rephrasing 'I think its silly people are mad' is a much more tactful way of expressing your original statement.

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10-13-2013, 12:16 AM
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Im sorry i just can't wrap my head around people criticizing Hertl. Like really? The kid is a piece of hockey history forever, that one rookie that scored his 4th goal of the game on an insane through the legs shot that beat one of the best goaltenders in modern history. Get out of here lol you debbie downers, you would be pumped as hell if you were him, and if you wouldn't be psyched, then you're not human.

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10-13-2013, 02:10 AM
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Fair points some mentioned, he is a kid. 19, I believe. I didn't think he went over the top in the celebration either. Last year when Nail Yakupov scored his first NHL goal and slid through center ice even Don Cherry of all people didn't see a problem with a young Russian kid doing this for his first goal. You have to look at it in context. Wayne Gretzky himself was accused when he was young of a fist pump after a goal. He grew up. As he got older he was rather stoic after a goal. After all, he did it enough times.

Celebrating in your face and taunting are things that I don't like in the game. And a person better "look out" if they try that. But a guy that is still trying to score after getting a hat trick? The only thing that would be insulting is if he STOPPED trying to score on you as sort of a mercy or pity thing. Professionals should never be insulted that another professional is trying to do their best against them regardless of it being a blowout.

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10-13-2013, 02:26 AM
  #20
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It's easy for Adam Oates with his 1300 career points to sit in his hotel room thinking Hertl should have done this or should have done that, but he's not putting himself in the kid's shoes.

Here's a guy who probably doesn't even know anyone who's had NHL success. This isn't some kid out of London who knows 5 guys who made it already. He comes over, doesn't know what to expect. Doesn't know if he's good enough. Gets in a game...and just kills it. Everything he does goes right. Everything's happening the way you dream about it as an 8 year old. He's just feeling it...may as well try something crazy in an 8-2 game...and, Christ, that works too.

Nobody should begrudge this guy this type of night.

This isn't Ovechkin doing some staged celebration after the 4th time he gets to 50 goals. It's just a kid whose dreams are coming true being creative in a blowout.

And anyways, his breakaway move worked. If the Rangers didn't want to be shown up, maybe they should have paid better attention to coverage. If Biron didn't want to be embarrassed any more than he already was, maybe he should remember he's got a poke-check.

And if Adam Oates wants to sit in judgment of this kid, maybe he should remember that he never had a 4 goal game when he was 20.

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10-13-2013, 03:41 AM
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I don't think Oates talked about the celebration. He talked specifically about the goal and the fact Hertl is a rookie. He was "upset" about the goal and called it "a rookie mistake". If a veteran did the exact same thing he probably even wouldn't have given it a thought. I watched the goal again but couldn't see any excessive celebration, he didn't stage any burning sticks or slide across the ice. He raised his arms and looked happy, that's all. What's he supposed to do? Look depressed like Markus Näslund? Now that would have been even more disrespectful.

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an insane through the legs shot that beat one of the best goaltenders in modern history
It was Biron.

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10-13-2013, 04:08 AM
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It's not the goal, its the celebration. When you score a goal to go ahead by 5 or 6, just act like you've done it before. No need for fist pumps, theatrics, etc...
Is it really the celebration that was the issue? Apparently, celebrating after tying a game isn't tolerable either:

5:30:



Huge celebrations are never allowed according to the conservative hockey elites -- not after tying a goal late in the third period (i.e. Yakupov) nor after winning a playoff game in overtime (i.e. Theoren Fleury). Unless noteworthy celebrations aren't allowed at all, this is not the reason people like Oates and Cherry are upset. Hunter Shinkaruk is an example of a player who celebrates enthusiastically after scoring most of his goals; his position in last year's draft dropped as a result as scouts seemingly questioned his personality.



It doesn't matter when a goal is scored: after tying a goal, there appears to also be a certain threshold for how excited a player should be. A very strong sense of decorum seems to be ingrained within hockey culture; there is always a limit to celebrating, always a limit to how often a team can outscore its opponent.

Hertl's celebration was not particularly outstanding. The move itself was what drew everyone's attention. Players are not supposed to be ambitious when the score is out of reach.

It seems creative moves aren't allowed when the game is close either, though. Taylor Hall was criticized for trying a move between his legs in a game last year when his team needed a goal. Zack Kassian tried the skate-to-stick move and was criticized for it as well. These complaints really appear to be measures to take creativity and enthusiasm out of the game in the name of courtly behavior.

The "code" is filled with contradictions as one may discover when he tries to explain why particular behavior is deemed unacceptable. Ultimately, the old-fashioned sector of the hockey community chases an ideal -- to remove enthusiasm from the game and to institute a system of courtly behavior in the league. Every situation is a bad situation to display emotion except in series-winning circumstances. In fact, one can extend beyond that and say players are expected to be insincere: they are expected to have generic personalities, reflected in the countless number of cliched interviews that have ever occurred. Above the league looms a cult of conservative idealism. Every player must respond with devout modesty to everything.

A certain portion of the hockey community seems to believe the players are bound to a chivalric system. They aren't knights; they have nothing to prove to anyone nor is there a social order. There appears to be a paranoia that anything other than a modest reaction is done with malicious intent; the system is a safeguard for the insecure. The teams and players need to have some self-awareness that they operate in the entertainment industry. The community needs to recognize this too. Players need to be responsible for realizing they're playing a sport and that fans are attracted to excitement. There is nothing wrong when genuine enthusiasm, ambition, and emotion bleed through.

Hertl's goal indicates a player who is simply naive and unaware of the convoluted chivalric code of the NHL. He has been criticized for being too innocent. Once that innocence is taken away, he'll be fully assimilated into the system. We'll see less of that creative flair, less of that enthusiasm. That's too bad.


Last edited by JetsAlternate: 10-13-2013 at 05:35 AM.
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10-13-2013, 09:21 AM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JetsAlternate View Post
Is it really the celebration that was the issue? Apparently, celebrating after tying a game isn't tolerable either:

5:30:



Huge celebrations are never allowed according to the conservative hockey elites -- not after tying a goal late in the third period (i.e. Yakupov) nor after winning a playoff game in overtime (i.e. Theoren Fleury). Unless noteworthy celebrations aren't allowed at all, this is not the reason people like Oates and Cherry are upset. Hunter Shinkaruk is an example of a player who celebrates enthusiastically after scoring most of his goals; his position in last year's draft dropped as a result as scouts seemingly questioned his personality.



It doesn't matter when a goal is scored: after tying a goal, there appears to also be a certain threshold for how excited a player should be. A very strong sense of decorum seems to be ingrained within hockey culture; there is always a limit to celebrating, always a limit to how often a team can outscore its opponent.

Hertl's celebration was not particularly outstanding. The move itself was what drew everyone's attention. Players are not supposed to be ambitious when the score is out of reach.

It seems creative moves aren't allowed when the game is close either, though. Taylor Hall was criticized for trying a move between his legs in a game last year when his team needed a goal. Zack Kassian tried the skate-to-stick move and was criticized for it as well. These complaints really appear to be measures to take creativity and enthusiasm out of the game in the name of courtly behavior.

The "code" is filled with contradictions as one may discover when he tries to explain why particular behavior is deemed unacceptable. Ultimately, the old-fashioned sector of the hockey community chases an ideal -- to remove enthusiasm from the game and to institute a system of courtly behavior in the league. Every situation is a bad situation to display emotion except in series-winning circumstances. In fact, one can extend beyond that and say players are expected to be insincere: they are expected to have generic personalities, reflected in the countless number of cliched interviews that have ever occurred. Above the league looms a cult of conservative idealism. Every player must respond with devout modesty to everything.

A certain portion of the hockey community seems to believe the players are bound to a chivalric system. They aren't knights; they have nothing to prove to anyone nor is there a social order. There appears to be a paranoia that anything other than a modest reaction is done with malicious intent; the system is a safeguard for the insecure. The teams and players need to have some self-awareness that they operate in the entertainment industry. The community needs to recognize this too. Players need to be responsible for realizing they're playing a sport and that fans are attracted to excitement. There is nothing wrong when genuine enthusiasm, ambition, and emotion bleed through.

Hertl's goal indicates a player who is simply naive and unaware of the convoluted chivalric code of the NHL. He has been criticized for being too innocent. Once that innocence is taken away, he'll be fully assimilated into the system. We'll see less of that creative flair, less of that enthusiasm. That's too bad.
Allow me to be more precise. Its not the celebration, its the timing of it. Scoring a goal to go up by 5 or 6 is not an opportune time to get theatrical. Nothing wrong with the move or the celebration. Timing is everything.

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10-13-2013, 10:59 AM
  #24
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I don't think Oates talked about the celebration. He talked specifically about the goal and the fact Hertl is a rookie. He was "upset" about the goal and called it "a rookie mistake". If a veteran did the exact same thing he probably even wouldn't have given it a thought. I watched the goal again but couldn't see any excessive celebration, he didn't stage any burning sticks or slide across the ice. He raised his arms and looked happy, that's all. What's he supposed to do? Look depressed like Markus Näslund? Now that would have been even more disrespectful.



It was Biron.
That is an even dumber argument. He can't score a sick goal because he is a rookie? What is he supposed to do?

 
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10-13-2013, 11:02 AM
  #25
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Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
Allow me to be more precise. Its not the celebration, its the timing of it. Scoring a goal to go up by 5 or 6 is not an opportune time to get theatrical. Nothing wrong with the move or the celebration. Timing is everything.
Lmao. I simply cant fathom why you have a problem with it. The only thing i can come back to is pure jealousy on your part. Oates is an idiot, someone made an excellent point that Hertl was coming over all by himself, likely not knowing a single person, and you have the stones to give him **** for an in-the-moment move he actually pulled off? How dare you?

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