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Old
07-16-2005, 10:24 PM
  #51
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^Agreed. Roloson wasn't even a starting goaltender until about a year or so ago; Vokoun gave Nashville a chance to win each night, and has been an Olympic calibre goaltender for his country, as well as world championships and so on. If Vokoun does not make your list, Roloson definitely shouldn't either. Coming in something like 7th in Vezina voting doesn't make you the most dominant goaltender in the league.

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07-17-2005, 12:12 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen
Andy Bathgate's top 7 finishes in NHL scoring shouldn't really be considered when it comes to the measure of greatness. Those things just don't compare to what Messier and Leetch have done for the New York Rangers. Leetch has awards galore, Messier captained the team to a cup, win a Hart Trophy, was an all-star many times and both were iconic Rangers for years.
I disagree. Being at or near the top of the scoring race indicates that a player is dominant in the NHL and that is greatness.

Hart Trophy consideration is part of greatness, Norris Trophy consideration is part of greatness, Stanley Cups, Conn Smythes and scoring prowess are all a part of greatness.

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07-17-2005, 12:15 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benton Fraser
I guess your system doesn't count the team that the players play with, I mean you put Vokoun with the Wild and do you know what you will find, he would put up great numbers and he would get all the recognition as being a great goaltender that you seem to give Roloson. I mean I am not saying that Roloson isn't a good goaltender, but what I guess I am saying is that to say he had a top 7 voting and thus he dominated would be faulty logic. No there are other reasons - he plays behind a very defensive team - his stats become a bit inflated as a result - he gets more votes than the better goaltender in Vokoun.
Perhaps that is true. Ultimately, I am not saying that Roloson is significantly better than Vokoun. I am just saying that he had significantly more conideration as the best goalie in the league. In my mind, the word of the eyewitnesses that voted means something. Again, I am not saying that Roloson is one of the greatest goaltenders of all time, I am just saying that the hockey writers believe that he is one of the league's best while they do not feel that way about Vokoun at this point. In the next few years, Vokoun may win the Vezina and blow by Roloson.

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07-17-2005, 12:20 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canucklehead17
^Agreed. Roloson wasn't even a starting goaltender until about a year or so ago; Vokoun gave Nashville a chance to win each night, and has been an Olympic calibre goaltender for his country, as well as world championships and so on. If Vokoun does not make your list, Roloson definitely shouldn't either. Coming in something like 7th in Vezina voting doesn't make you the most dominant goaltender in the league.

~Canucklehead~
It is amazing the controversy I have caused by this.

Let's put it this way, Roloson barely registers on the greatest players list. He is a blip on the radar. Vokoun is probably the better goalie and likely will be recognized by the voters in the next few years. It is always tough to compare active players because things change every single season. I bet that one year from today, Vokoun will be ahead of Roloson.

This comparison hardly deserves the attention it has gotten.

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07-17-2005, 12:34 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Perhaps that is true. Ultimately, I am not saying that Roloson is significantly better than Vokoun. I am just saying that he had significantly more conideration as the best goalie in the league. In my mind, the word of the eyewitnesses that voted means something. Again, I am not saying that Roloson is one of the greatest goaltenders of all time, I am just saying that the hockey writers believe that he is one of the league's best while they do not feel that way about Vokoun at this point. In the next few years, Vokoun may win the Vezina and blow by Roloson.
You're really grasping at straws here. Finishing seventh in Vezina voting probably means you got a couple of third place votes or something like that. That's a couple of hockey writers. Maybe from Minnesota.

I also can't think of too many people who would rather take Dwayne Roloson over Tomas Vokoun, who is not only an all-star NHLer, but a winner on the international stage. Roloson has never played more than 50 games in an NHL season. He's not even clearly better than Manny Fernandez.

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07-17-2005, 12:40 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
I disagree. Being at or near the top of the scoring race indicates that a player is dominant in the NHL and that is greatness.

Hart Trophy consideration is part of greatness, Norris Trophy consideration is part of greatness, Stanley Cups, Conn Smythes and scoring prowess are all a part of greatness.
Mark Messier: Hart Trophy, 2 Lester B Pearson awards, a legendary playoff performance, a Stanley Cup, numerous all-star appearances, face of the Rangers for a decade.

Brian Leetch: a Calder, a Conn Smythe, a Stanley Cup, Norris Trophies, a 100 point season, all-star appearances, all-star teams, face of the Rangers, American hockey in general.

Andy Bathgate: good scorer. Rangers miss the playoffs 7 of the 11 years he was with them.

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07-17-2005, 01:42 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
St. Louis Blues - Brett Hull

Calgary Flames - Al MacInnis
How does that work? They both played for Calgary and St. Louis so how can both of them be up there. Like you're saying Brett Hull's better than Al MacInnis, but Al MacInnis is better than Brett Hull.

Shouldn't it be one or the other?

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07-17-2005, 02:50 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Honus Joglund
How does that work? They both played for Calgary and St. Louis so how can both of them be up there. Like you're saying Brett Hull's better than Al MacInnis, but Al MacInnis is better than Brett Hull.

Shouldn't it be one or the other?
al macinnis was better with calgary than brett hull was with calgary
brett hull was better with st louis than al macinnis was with st louis

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Old
07-17-2005, 09:36 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimEIV
Are these Votes??


Calgary is very surprising that there is no Joey Mullen (54 All Time in scoring) or Joe Nieuwendyk (56th All Time in scoring), or even Gary Suter who is currently 95th All time in scoring. No offense to Jerome, but no way should he be considered one of Calgary's greatest ever players over these guys (currently, maybe 10 years from that will change)


Washington No Dale Hunter??? (Good enough to be 62nd All time in scoring) 1000+ points and 3000+ PIMs
Franchise's TOP-10 Greatest Players (by "HHOF Monitor Points")

Player -- Pos. -- "HHOF Monitor" Points /CGY
=======================================
Macinnis Al -- D -- 1626,46
Iginla Jarome -- RW -- 1053,31
Fleury Theo -- RW -- 748,59
Mullen Joe -- RW -- 601,51 (1078,23 "HHOF Monitor" Points,total NHL career )
Vernon Mike -- G -- 559,08
Nieuwendyk Joe -- C -- 518,81 (1086,62 "HHOF Monitor" Points,total NHL career)
Suter Gary -- D -- 503,41 (696,54 "HHOF Monitor" Points,total NHL career)
Mcdonald Lanny -- RW -- 411,63
Loob Hakan -- RW -- 392,74
Nilsson Kent -- C -- 371,28



Player -- Pos. -- "HHOF Monitor" Points/WAS
==================================
Langway Rod -- D -- 934,96
Bondra Peter -- RW -- 735,75
Stevens Scott -- D -- 493,22
Oates Adam -- C -- 474,67
Gonchar Sergei -- D -- 456,83
Gartner Mike -- RW -- 408,27
Kolzig Olaf -- G -- 381,97
Hunter Dale -- C -- 352,42 (567,44 "HHOF Monitor" Points,total NHL career)
Pivonka Michal -- C -- 340,2
Johansson Calle -- D -- 329,69

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07-17-2005, 10:12 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning

How about that? Mark Howe, apparently not good enough for the Hall, finishes higher than the "Hall of Famer" Bill Barber.
Franchise's TOP-10 Greatest Players (by "HHOF Monitor Points")

Player -- Pos. -- "HHOF Monitor" Points /PHI
=======================================
Clarke Bobby -- C -- 2207,41
Parent Bernie -- G -- 1490,61
Howe Mark -- D -- 1046,64
Lindros Eric -- C -- 1039,24
Leclair John -- LW -- 963,05
Barber Bill -- LW -- 910,4
Hextall Ron -- G -- 793,14
Leach Reggie -- RW -- 721,17
Recchi Mark -- RW -- 600,23
Macleish Rick -- C -- 596,3


Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning
Apps would`ve been my choice as well, but there`s literally at least a dozen guys you could make an argument for in this case.
Yes, numbers of top Toronto players are very close

Player -- Pos. -- "HHOF Monitor" Points /TOR
=======================================
Apps C.J. Syl -- C -- 1991,12
Broda Turk -- G -- 1974,75
Kennedy Ted -- C -- 1780,31
Conacher Charlie -- RW -- 1632,6
Bower Johnny -- G -- 1532,13
Keon Dave -- C -- 1514,11
Horton Tim -- D -- 1444,22
Mahovlich Frank -- LW -- 1378,09
Drillon Gordie -- LW -- 1227,37
Jackson Busher -- LW -- 1204,29
Salming Borje -- D -- 1065,78
Dye Babe -- RW -- 1059,04
Primeau Joe -- C -- 1006,5
Stanley Allan -- D -- 915,96
Smith Sid -- LW -- 856,17
Sundin Mats -- C -- 843,77

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Old
07-17-2005, 10:15 AM
  #61
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New Jersey Devils - Martin Brodeur
New York Islanders - Mike Bossy
New York Rangers - Rod Gilbert/Brian Leetch
Philadelphia Flyers - Bobby Clarke
Pittsburgh Penguins - Mario Lemieux

Boston Bruins - Bobby Orr
Buffalo Sabres - Gilbert Perrault (SP)
Montreal Canadiens - Maurice Richard
Ottawa Senators - Daniel Alfredsson
Toronto Maple Leafs - Darryl Sittler

Atlanta Thrashers - Ilya Kovalchuk
Carolina Hurricanes - Ron Francis
Florida Panthers - Pavel Bure
Tampa Bay Lightning - Brad Richards
Washington Capitals - Rod Langway

Chicago Blackhawks - Stan Mikita
Columbus Blue Jackets - Rick Nash
Detroit Red Wings - Gordie Howe/Steve Yzerman
Nashville Predators - Tomas Vokoun
St. Louis Blues - Brett Hull

Calgary Flames - Al MacInnis
Colorado Avalanche - Joe Sakic
Edmonton Oilers - Wayne Gretzky
Minnesota Wild - Marian Gaborik
Vancouver Canucks - Stan Smyl

Anaheim Ducks - Paul Kariya
Dallas Stars - Dino Ciccarelli (sp)
Los Angeles Kings - Marcel Dionne
Phoenix Coyotes - Dale Hawerchuk
San Jose Sharks - Owen Nolan

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Old
07-17-2005, 12:05 PM
  #62
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All this talk of Leetch, Messier and others for best Ranger leaves one name out.

Bill Cook. He led the NHL in goals 3 times, and points twice, both records for a Ranger. Captain for 11 years and two Cup winning teams. He was also the first player to score a Stanley Cup winning goal in OT.

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07-18-2005, 10:39 AM
  #63
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I would rate Linden as the greatest Canuck of all-time, not because he holds virtually every career regular season record in franchise history (that's more a reflection of longevity) but because his accomplishments in the playoffs set him apart. He held virtually every Canuck career playoff record before his 25th birthday. He was a point-per-game producer in the playoffs for most of his career (until about two years ago), a rare feat among players who never hit a point-per-game in any regular season in their career. When the games matter, Linden has often been the Canucks best player, not only scoring at a higher clip than in the regular season, but hitting, winning face-offs, providing great defensive play and providing leadership in the dressing.

Plus, he was the player the team built around for their most successful years and the face of the franchise for nearly a decade.

When I think of the greatest player in the history of a franchise, I think of the guy who meant the most to the team, not necessarily the guy who had the most post-season all-star births or finished in the top 7 in league scoring the most times.

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07-18-2005, 10:43 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway
Bathgate certainly doesn't belong to be mentioned ahead of Brian Leetch, Mark Messier, Mike Richter, Rod Gilbert or Eddie Giacomin.

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07-18-2005, 10:45 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by kmad
and I think Steve Yzerman might give Gordie a run for his money.

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07-18-2005, 10:48 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
I would rate Linden as the greatest Canuck of all-time, not because he holds virtually every career regular season record in franchise history (that's more a reflection of longevity) but because his accomplishments in the playoffs set him apart. He held virtually every Canuck career playoff record before his 25th birthday. He was a point-per-game producer in the playoffs for most of his career (until about two years ago), a rare feat among players who never hit a point-per-game in any regular season in their career. When the games matter, Linden has often been the Canucks best player, not only scoring at a higher clip than in the regular season, but hitting, winning face-offs, providing great defensive play and providing leadership in the dressing.

Plus, he was the player the team built around for their most successful years and the face of the franchise for nearly a decade.

When I think of the greatest player in the history of a franchise, I think of the guy who meant the most to the team, not necessarily the guy who had the most post-season all-star births or finished in the top 7 in league scoring the most times.
We will have to disagree on that one. I see greatness as dominance of your peers during your era in the NHL. Other than the finals run in 1994 Trevor hasn't done anything even close to being a dominant player.

Good player? Yes. Overrated player? Yes. Greatest Canuck ever? No.

I would put Naslund, Bure and Bertuzzi ahead of Linden on the Canucks list.

Working hard on the ice and doing charity work off the ice is nice but it is not greatness. In fact, I would say that Linden has done virtually the same thing as Stan Smyl for the Canucks franchise.

If we did a thread for "Most popular players by franchise" then Linden would be the right choice.


Last edited by Ogopogo*: 07-18-2005 at 11:15 AM.
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07-18-2005, 10:50 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by pei fan
....
I completely agree with your laughter.

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07-18-2005, 11:16 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo
I completely agree with your laughter.
But do you want to know what is really ironic? Someone can post something
as foolish as Yzerman giving Howe a run for his money and nobody took him to task for it until I did.However if you dare mention that the greatest 16/17 junior
hockey player of all time as having the potential to be as good as Lemieux and Gretzky you are immediately raked over the coals.

To me this must have something to do with a nostalgia factor for players fans
cheered for growing up.To be perfectly honest when I was 18 I was somewhat the
same.I didn't really want to listen to people saying that this Gretzky kid might
become greater than Orr,even to the point that I purposely didn't watch him
play and if I did it was only casually and critically.Then one day I watched a
game with my eyes open for some reason and I just said "holy cow - so this is
what i've been missing".

Just curious if you've ever had a chance to see Sidney play live and what your
thoughts are on him.

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07-18-2005, 11:25 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pei fan
But do you want to know what is really ironic? Someone can post something
as foolish as Yzerman giving Howe a run for his money and nobody took him to task for it until I did.However if you dare mention that the greatest 16/17 junior
hockey player of all time as having the potential to be as good as Lemieux and Gretzky you are immediately raked over the coals.

To me this must have something to do with a nostalgia factor for players fans
cheered for growing up.To be perfectly honest when I was 18 I was somewhat the
same.I didn't really want to listen to people saying that this Gretzky kid might
become greater than Orr,even to the point that I purposely didn't watch him
play and if I did it was only casually and critically.Then one day I watched a
game with my eyes open for some reason and I just said "holy cow - so this is
what i've been missing".

Just curious if you've ever had a chance to see Sidney play live and what your
thoughts are on him.
I live out west so, I have never been able to see Sidney play live. I did watch him play at the Memorial Cup on TV and I was very impressed. He seems to have the tools to become a very good NHLer. When Gretzky said that Crosby would be the guy to break his records, I think he was being his typical polite, kind self. Crosby will be good but, not that good. Crosby might even be dominant but, I really don't think he will be Gretzky-type dominant. I could see him becoming one of the 10 greatest players of all time but probably not #1. I would love to see him prove me wrong on that.

I site the World Juniors to back my assumption. Wayne Gretzky, at age 16, won the scoring title and made the all star team. Those are things that Crosby did not do even in his second World Juniors at age 17.

I honestly think that people who throw out foolish comparisons like that really don't know anything about Gordie Howe or Andy Bathgate. They just look at the career point total and say "Howe just played for a long time" or "Bathgate only has 973 career points, that isn't that great". If people actually did some research, they would be blown away by how great those two players really were.

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07-18-2005, 11:50 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
I live out west so, I have never been able to see Sidney play live. I did watch him play at the Memorial Cup on TV and I was very impressed. He seems to have the tools to become a very good NHLer. When Gretzky said that Crosby would be the guy to break his records, I think he was being his typical polite, kind self. Crosby will be good but, not that good.

I site the World Juniors to back my assumption. Wayne Gretzky, at age 16, won the scoring title and made the all star team. Those are things that Crosby did not do even in his second World Juniors at age 17.

I honestly think that people who throw out foolish comparisons like that really don't know anything about Gordie Howe or
Well you really need to see him live to fully understand.By the way Wayne has
spoken about Sidney several times since and continues to love him.About the
WJC's I am going to ask you a question I think will be hard for you to answer
objectively because of Gretzky being your favourite player but......do you really think that if Gretzky was put in the same situation as Sidney was(quinessential
superstar center asked to play for Sutter style team on the wing checking,forchecking,backchecking,fighting for puck along the boards,screening in front of the net,50% less icetime than Carter)would he have even had the skills
to do so?I don't say that to diminish Gretzky( I am a big fan)- it's just that
I believe people are not looking at the full picture to understand just how
good Sidney is.As far as the first WJC's go he only got an average of less than
5 minutes of icetime and so on a per icetime basis he outscored everyone in both
tournaments not to mention all the other things he did so well.

Also, I will correct you a little about the age thing.Gretzky as 16/17 year old junior
was closer in age to a 17 year old Crosby than a 16 year old Crosby.

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07-18-2005, 11:58 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pei fan
Well you really need to see him live to fully understand.By the way Wayne has
spoken about Sidney several times since and continues to love him.About the
WJC's I am going to ask you a question I think will be hard for you to answer
objectively because of Gretzky being your favourite player but......do you really think that if Gretzky was put in the same situation as Sidney was(quinessential
superstar center asked to play for Sutter style team on the wing checking,forchecking,backchecking,fighting for puck along the boards,screening in front of the net,50% less icetime than Carter)would he have even had the skills
to do so?I don't say that to diminish Gretzky( I am a big fan)- it's just that
I believe people are not looking at the full picture to understand just how
good Sidney is.As far as the first WJC's go he only got an average of less than
5 minutes of icetime and so on a per icetime basis he outscored everyone in both
tournaments not to mention all the other things he did so well.

Also, I will correct you a little about the age thing.Gretzky as 16/17 year old junior
was closer in age to a 17 year old Crosby than a 16 year old Crosby.
Don't get me wrong, I would certainly love to see Crosby dominate the NHL. We haven't had a single dominant force since Jagr had his great run a few years ago. It would be nice to see.

That being said, Crosby did win the scoring championship in the Q as a 16 year old - something Gretzky did not do in his only year in the O.

Crosby's career will be interesting to watch and I will cheer him on the whole way. I just find it hard to believe that anyone could dominate the league to the extent Gretzky did. If he does it, I will give him the credit he deserves.

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07-18-2005, 01:07 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Who is the greatest player for each NHL franchise? IMO, these are the "golden 30" that have the greatest accomplishments for each team.

New Jersey Devils - Martin Brodeur
New York Islanders - Bryan Trottier
New York Rangers - Andy Bathgate
Philadelphia Flyers - Bobby Clarke
Pittsburgh Penguins - Mario Lemieux

Boston Bruins - Bobby Orr
Buffalo Sabres - Dominik Hasek
Montreal Canadiens - Jean Beliveau
Ottawa Senators - Cy Denneny (modern day: Zdeno Chara)
Toronto Maple Leafs - Frank Mahovlich

Atlanta Thrashers - Ilya Kovalchuk
Carolina Hurricanes - Ron Francis
Florida Panthers - Pavel Bure
Tampa Bay Lightning - Martin St. Louis
Washington Capitals - Rod Langway

Chicago Blackhawks - Bobby Hull
Columbus Blue Jackets - Rick Nash
Detroit Red Wings - Gordie Howe
Nashville Predators - No greats yet
St. Louis Blues - Brett Hull

Calgary Flames - Al MacInnis
Colorado Avalanche - Patrick Roy
Edmonton Oilers - Wayne Gretzky
Minnesota Wild - No greats yet
Vancouver Canucks - Markus Naslund

Anaheim Ducks - Paul Kariya
Dallas Stars - Ed Belfour
Los Angeles Kings - Wayne Gretzky
Phoenix Coyotes - Dale Hawerchuk
San Jose Sharks - Evgeni Nabokov


Thoughts?
A few very subjective thoughts. I may be confused but are we referring to these players as having their best years with this frnachise, or the best players to wear that jersey for however brief a period of time?

Colorado Avalanche - Peter Stastny
St. Louis Blues - Doug Harvey
Ottawa Senators - Alexei Yashin

I realize these names probably do not fit your system, but hey, they were the omissions that immediately jumped out at me.

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07-18-2005, 01:10 PM
  #73
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Thanks, I'll be here all week. Tip your waitress.

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07-18-2005, 01:48 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Stephen
Andy Bathgate's top 7 finishes in NHL scoring shouldn't really be considered when it comes to the measure of greatness. Those things just don't compare to what Messier and Leetch have done for the New York Rangers. Leetch has awards galore, Messier captained the team to a cup, win a Hart Trophy, was an all-star many times and both were iconic Rangers for years.
Messier was an all-star only one year as a ranger(1st team),while Bathgate was
a 1st team all star twice and a 2nd team all star twice and he also won a Hart
like Messier. If it's just their time as a Ranger I pick Bathgate but if it's all career then Messier.

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07-18-2005, 03:57 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malefic74
A few very subjective thoughts. I may be confused but are we referring to these players as having their best years with this frnachise, or the best players to wear that jersey for however brief a period of time?

Colorado Avalanche - Peter Stastny
St. Louis Blues - Doug Harvey
Ottawa Senators - Alexei Yashin

I realize these names probably do not fit your system, but hey, they were the omissions that immediately jumped out at me.
I put the players who had the greatest seasons in that particular uniform. So, for example, Doug Harvey would not count for St. Louis because his greatness came before he got to the Blues. Stastny was excellent but, Roy does have the edge for that franchise.

Yashin is a great answer. In fact, I am going to change my original post. Yashin has been out of Ottawa so long that I forgot to consider him for the Senators. Thanks for posting that. Not only was he there, he is their greatest player.


Last edited by Ogopogo*: 07-18-2005 at 04:42 PM.
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