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Franchise Greatest Players

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Old
07-19-2005, 04:22 AM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
I just find it hard to believe that anyone could dominate the league to the extent Gretzky did. If he does it, I will give him the credit he deserves.
Mario dominated more, no question. Funny you cant acknowledge that.

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07-19-2005, 09:56 AM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Mario dominated more, no question. Funny you cant acknowledge that.
Isn't there a separate board for trolls?

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07-19-2005, 11:11 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Mario dominated more, no question. Funny you cant acknowledge that.
After the beating you've taken in the other threads, I'm surprised you still post here under the same name.

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Old
07-19-2005, 12:36 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Mario dominated more, no question. Funny you cant acknowledge that.
Mario dominated more? Perhaps on the powerplay where he recorded nearly 40% of his career goals...

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Old
07-19-2005, 01:34 PM
  #80
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What's wrong with the powerplay?

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Old
07-19-2005, 02:42 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom_servo
What's wrong with the powerplay?
It's an inside joke. One time chooch was throwing around some ridiculous numbers and inocrrect stats about power plays in his attempt to discredit Gretzky.

Nothing wrong with the powerplay, just many things wrong with how chooch sees the world.

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Old
07-19-2005, 02:54 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Mario dominated more, no question. Funny you cant acknowledge that.

Your posts are usually filled with historical inaccuracies, which diminishes your opinion on subjective matters vastly in the eyes of the wiser poster. Funny you can't acknowledge that.

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Old
07-19-2005, 03:40 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Mario dominated more, no question. Funny you cant acknowledge that.
I never knew Mario won scoring titles by more than 70 pts, something Gretzky did 5 times, including 3 seasons Mario played. Must have missed those seasons by Mario.

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Old
07-19-2005, 04:10 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Joe
I never knew Mario won scoring titles by more than 70 pts, something Gretzky did 5 times, including 3 seasons Mario played. Must have missed those seasons by Mario.
Mario dominated on-ice. Not statistically. Nothing could stop Mario when he was on his game.

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Old
07-19-2005, 04:10 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Who is the greatest player for each NHL franchise? IMO, these are the "golden 30" that have the greatest accomplishments for each team.

New Jersey Devils - Martin Brodeur
New York Islanders - Bryan Trottier
New York Rangers - Andy Bathgate
Philadelphia Flyers - Bobby Clarke
Pittsburgh Penguins - Mario Lemieux

Boston Bruins - Bobby Orr
Buffalo Sabres - Dominik Hasek
Montreal Canadiens - Jean Beliveau
Ottawa Senators - Cy Denneny (modern day: Alexei Yashin)
Toronto Maple Leafs - Frank Mahovlich

Atlanta Thrashers - Ilya Kovalchuk
Carolina Hurricanes - Ron Francis
Florida Panthers - Pavel Bure
Tampa Bay Lightning - Martin St. Louis
Washington Capitals - Rod Langway

Chicago Blackhawks - Bobby Hull
Columbus Blue Jackets - Rick Nash
Detroit Red Wings - Gordie Howe
Nashville Predators - No greats yet
St. Louis Blues - Brett Hull

Calgary Flames - Al MacInnis
Colorado Avalanche - Patrick Roy
Edmonton Oilers - Wayne Gretzky
Minnesota Wild - No greats yet
Vancouver Canucks - Markus Naslund

Anaheim Ducks - Paul Kariya
Dallas Stars - Ed Belfour
Los Angeles Kings - Wayne Gretzky
Phoenix Coyotes - Dale Hawerchuk
San Jose Sharks - Evgeni Nabokov

Thoughts?
Not a bad list.

As an Islander fan, I'd probably take Potvin over Trottier. And, for NJ, an argument could be made for Scott Stevens. For Buffalo, I'd probably say Gilbert Perrault.

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Old
07-19-2005, 04:14 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmad
Mario dominated on-ice. Not statistically. Nothing could stop Mario when he was on his game.
I'm not ripping on Mario. I never would. I just ripping the poster who says he, "no doubt", was the more dominant player. They were both dominant and it's very arguable who was better or more dominant at their respective peaks. Having seen both since they were in Juniors, I'd say Wayne, but it's arguable.

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Old
07-19-2005, 05:19 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Joe
I'm not ripping on Mario. I never would. I just ripping the poster who says he, "no doubt", was the more dominant player. They were both dominant and it's very arguable who was better or more dominant at their respective peaks. Having seen both since they were in Juniors, I'd say Wayne, but it's arguable.
I don't think it is even arguable. Gretzky winning a scoring title by 69% (1986-87) and four others by over 50% is something that cannot be talked about enough. Those five seasons are truly amazing. Gretzky had many other amazing seasons but those five have never been touched by anyone, Mario included.

Mario dominated "on ice but not statistically" just means that Mario dominated once in a while not all the time. Gretzky dominated all the time. That puts Gretzky above Mario.

Mario was a fantastic player but, anyone that researches the facts, looks at it logically and adds in reason cannot say that Mario was more dominant than Gretzky. It is simply not true.

Mario was great. Gretzky was greater. The facts don't lie.

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Old
07-19-2005, 05:28 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
The facts don't lie.
I'm sick of your statistical analysis of everything. You'd probably say Mike Gartner was greater or more dominant than Eric Lindros.

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Old
07-19-2005, 05:41 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmad
I'm sick of your statistical analysis of everything. You'd probably say Mike Gartner was greater or more dominant than Eric Lindros.
Actually Gartner is the most overrated player in the history of the NHL. He is nowhere near Eric Lindros in terms of greatness.

Why do you hate statistical analysis? Statistics are simply the evidence of what took place on the ice. Some people would rather rely on their memory but, most times that does not give an accurate picture. Bias and memory loss factor in and cause players to be bigger or smaller in one's mind than they really were.

By ignoring the numbers when you try to debate Gretzky vs. Lemieux you are simply ignoring the facts. Why are the facts irrelevant?

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Old
07-19-2005, 05:45 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
By ignoring the numbers when you try to debate Gretzky vs. Lemieux you are simply ignoring the facts. Why are the facts irrelevant?
Will you admit that Lemieux is the most talented player of all time?

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Old
07-19-2005, 06:17 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmad
Will you admit that Lemieux is the most talented player of all time?
I think that is debatable between Lemieux, Gretzky and Orr. But, to be honest, since you and I have both not seen players like Howe, Shore, Denneny, Morenz, Cowley, Harvey, Hull, Mikita, and Richard in their primes, we really cannot make that call. That is why I like statistics and awards. Even though I was not around in the 40s to see the NHL, we have evidence of what happened. Correct evaluation of the evidence can give us some pretty accurate conclusions.

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Old
07-20-2005, 09:27 AM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmad
Will you admit that Lemieux is the most talented player of all time?
Ogopogo,my advice is don't admit anything to anyone who believes Yzerman
might give Howe a run for his money.
Personally I think the debate over talent is between Orr and Gretzky.
However, I believe that is going to change very soon.

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Old
07-20-2005, 11:02 AM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmad
Will you admit that Lemieux is the most talented player of all time?
Certainly..

Now will you admit that Wayne did more with less?

Quote:
Mario dominated on-ice. Not statistically. Nothing could stop Mario when he was on his game.
So... are you saying Wayne was stoppable?

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Old
07-20-2005, 11:29 AM
  #94
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I would say Lemieux is the most physically blessed player of all time. He was blessed with great speed, awesome stickhandling, a blazing shot, great vision and hockey sense, and all in a 6'4", 200-plus pound frame. Sadly, his commitment to the game, especially in his early years, couldn't match his physical gifts. I could go on about his lack of commitment to conditioning (which may be a root to his back problems), some of his comments about the game early in his career (anyone remember "It's a garage league" in 1992), and his perceived preference of golf. (In a late 1980s THN Yearbook, one of the headlines they said they wanted to write was "I like hockey more than I like golf: Mario Lemieux").

The Mario we've seen since the comeback is a Mario dedicated to the game. I think fatherhood, and the opportunity to have his children watch him play, has changed him, for the better. However, he's still one of the top five players to ever play the game (I'd say No. 4, after Orr, Howe and Gretzky), and he has a resume that few can match.

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Old
07-20-2005, 11:33 AM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
I think that is debatable between Lemieux, Gretzky and Orr. But, to be honest, since you and I have both not seen players like Howe, Shore, Denneny, Morenz, Cowley, Harvey, Hull, Mikita, and Richard in their primes, we really cannot make that call. That is why I like statistics and awards. Even though I was not around in the 40s to see the NHL, we have evidence of what happened. Correct evaluation of the evidence can give us some pretty accurate conclusions.
I would also mention Lindros as far as pure talent is concerned.

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Old
07-20-2005, 02:48 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
I would say Lemieux is the most physically blessed player of all time. He was blessed with great speed, awesome stickhandling, a blazing shot, great vision and hockey sense, and all in a 6'4", 200-plus pound frame. Sadly, his commitment to the game, especially in his early years, couldn't match his physical gifts. I could go on about his lack of commitment to conditioning (which may be a root to his back problems), some of his comments about the game early in his career (anyone remember "It's a garage league" in 1992), and his perceived preference of golf. (In a late 1980s THN Yearbook, one of the headlines they said they wanted to write was "I like hockey more than I like golf: Mario Lemieux").

The Mario we've seen since the comeback is a Mario dedicated to the game. I think fatherhood, and the opportunity to have his children watch him play, has changed him, for the better. However, he's still one of the top five players to ever play the game (I'd say No. 4, after Orr, Howe and Gretzky), and he has a resume that few can match.
I think the major reason for his new level of commitment is protection of his investment. He wants to sell tickets - it directly affects his wallet.

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Old
07-21-2005, 04:41 PM
  #97
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Hull for the Blues folllowed closely by Federko and MacInnis.

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Old
07-21-2005, 04:53 PM
  #98
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For the Leafs I got to go with Frank Mahovlich. However, if the Leafs win a cup in the next couple of years. I think Mats Sundin is right up there.

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Old
07-27-2005, 11:20 PM
  #99
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New Jersey Devils - Martin Brodeur
New York Islanders - Denis Potvin
New York Rangers - Brian Leetch
Philadelphia Flyers - Bobby Clarke
Pittsburgh Penguins - Mario Lemieux

Boston Bruins - Bobby Orr
Buffalo Sabres - Gilbert Perrault
Montreal Canadiens - Maurice Richard
Ottawa Senators - Alexei Yashin
Toronto Maple Leafs - Daryl Sitler

Atlanta Thrashers - Ilya Kovalchuk
Carolina Hurricanes - Ron Francis
Florida Panthers - John Vanbeesbruk (sp)
Tampa Bay Lightning - Vincent Lecavalier
Washington Capitals - Mike Gartner

Chicago Blackhawks - Bobby Hull
Columbus Blue Jackets - Rick Nash
Detroit Red Wings - Gordie Howe
Nashville Predators - Thomas Vokoum
St. Louis Blues - Brett Hull

Calgary Flames - Al MacInnis
Colorado Avalanche - Joe Sakic Peter Statsny in Quebec
Edmonton Oilers - Wayne Gretzky
Minnesota Wild - Marian Gaborik (to date)
Vancouver Canucks - Trevor Linden

Anaheim Ducks - Paul Kariya
Dallas Stars - Mike Modano in Minnesota - Ciccarelli or Smith
Los Angeles Kings - Marcel Dionne
Phoenix Coyotes - Roenick or Tkachuk / In Winnipeg - Hawerchuk or Steen
San Jose Sharks - Owen Nolan

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Old
07-28-2005, 01:57 AM
  #100
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About Ottawa, it depends how you interpret it.

If you ask, up untill yesterday, who was the franchise player? The answer is Alexi Yashin.

But ask the question a few years from now, and the answer will most likely be Daniel Alfredsson. Dont forget, the sens signed him to a good lenghty contract, and he will most likely play his whole career in Ottawa.

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