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Around the NHL II - 11/8: Oilers Go Insane.

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Old
10-28-2013, 08:59 AM
  #476
NYR Viper
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Originally Posted by Championship View Post
The issue here isn't the price paid (Getting Vanek without giving up Strome or Reinhart or Pulock was a great move). It's that:

1)If he doesn't re-sign
2)Isles trade a strength for a strength and don't address their more important needs
3)Vanek is a known band-aid boy
4)Anything at least 1 playoff round win

At what point does Nabokov start to break down again? Not much help in the wings on that front, and they've now expended a valuable asset (1st rounder) in order to fix something that wasn't broke.

He will be a great player for them, but there is a gigantic risk involved here.
I think it's a great deal for both teams. Buffalo got quite the haul for a player who wasn't going to stay and the Islanders get to see if he meshes with Vanek, try and re-sign him for 3 months and if not, flip him elsewhere for more help.

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10-28-2013, 08:59 AM
  #477
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
If nothing else, it adds a legitimate threat to that top line, which should give JT more space and time. Moulson, on his best nights, was the ultimate complimentary player. He made a living off of burying chances generated from Tavares. Vanek, on the other hand, can generate chances himself. Both players are known for a lack of consistency, but Vanek should have the upper hand given that he's coming to a team that is on the upswing and is getting out of a very ****** situation in Buffalo.

I get what you're saying about the 'same old Rangers', but in this case it's the Islanders signaling that they're moving out of their rebuild and they want to start contending each year. That says a lot to the fans as well as the players. In this instance, it'd equate to Sather coming out of his hole and signaling a rebuild by dealing off a lot of mistakes and core pieces he's added over the last few years. It's a big change for the Islanders mentality.
Is the Isles rebuild over? One playoff birth in a shortened season. They aren't cup contenders this year, even with Vanek.

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10-28-2013, 09:02 AM
  #478
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
I think it's a great deal for both teams. Buffalo got quite the haul for a player who wasn't going to stay and the Islanders get to see if he meshes with Vanek, try and re-sign him for 3 months and if not, flip him elsewhere for more help.
The Isles are not trading Vanek mid-season. That's ludicrous. Even if he doesn't re-sign he will be vital to their getting into the playoffs, which is incredibly important to them. The issues and risks are very real.

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10-28-2013, 09:32 AM
  #479
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Is the Isles rebuild over? One playoff birth in a shortened season. They aren't cup contenders this year, even with Vanek.
Just because we are not cup contenders does not mean we are still rebuilding. We dont need anymore picks, our talent pool is huge.

Moulson is a UFA at the end of the year and he was going to walk anyway.

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10-28-2013, 09:42 AM
  #480
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
Buffalo don't expect Moulson to sign, they are into this for picks. Vanek might stay, if money are good. Theyre NYC team in years to come. Plus Snow might go after Lundqvist.
im sure that wont happen.. the chances of Islanders signing Lundqvist on July 1

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10-28-2013, 09:47 AM
  #481
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Just because we are not cup contenders does not mean we are still rebuilding. We dont need anymore picks, our talent pool is huge.

Moulson is a UFA at the end of the year and he was going to walk anyway.
Was he also leaving with 2 picks?

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10-28-2013, 09:50 AM
  #482
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On a side note, Dubi cleared by the league for his hit on Koivu per Bob Mackenzie

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10-28-2013, 09:50 AM
  #483
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Originally Posted by Championship View Post
Is the Isles rebuild over? One playoff birth in a shortened season. They aren't cup contenders this year, even with Vanek.
I think it's clear as day that the "suck for prospects" era is over. This is the stage where they start showing faith in the players, and bringing in pieces to help them win. It's not as simple as sucking for picks and then suddenly the rebuild is over. They have one of the best prospect pools in the league, a great group of young talent, and a solid group of veterans. They're poised to at least make a run to the playoffs. Sure, they'll likely be a first round exit, but teaching these kids how to play in the NHL and getting them playoff experience -- even just a few games -- is incredibly important.

They probably won't be hugely successful this year, but they're making all the right moves to get there within the next couple seasons. Clinging to draft picks is a loser mentality plain and simple.

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10-28-2013, 09:54 AM
  #484
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Was he also leaving with 2 picks?
Islanders have mongered picks for a long time now. Picks are always good, but where the Islanders are now, having picks just to have picks is over.

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10-28-2013, 10:15 AM
  #485
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
I think it's clear as day that the "suck for prospects" era is over. This is the stage where they start showing faith in the players, and bringing in pieces to help them win. It's not as simple as sucking for picks and then suddenly the rebuild is over. They have one of the best prospect pools in the league, a great group of young talent, and a solid group of veterans. They're poised to at least make a run to the playoffs. Sure, they'll likely be a first round exit, but teaching these kids how to play in the NHL and getting them playoff experience -- even just a few games -- is incredibly important.

They probably won't be hugely successful this year, but they're making all the right moves to get there within the next couple seasons. Clinging to draft picks is a loser mentality plain and simple.
I don't think the problem is trading away draft picks insomuch as it's trading away draft picks and not addressing a need, and trading them for what may be a rental instead of young, controllable asset. If he re-signs then this is a complete win for the Isles. No re-sign, a first round exit, Vanek misses significant time from injury and this could look bad. I think there are many stages to a rebuild and it'd certainly put the Islanders in the "late stage" portion of one.

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10-28-2013, 10:20 AM
  #486
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Originally Posted by Championship View Post
I don't think the problem is trading away draft picks insomuch as it's trading away draft picks and not addressing a need, and trading them for what may be a rental instead of young, controllable asset. If he re-signs then this is a complete win for the Isles. No re-sign, a first round exit, Vanek misses significant time from injury and this could look bad. I think there are many stages to a rebuild and it'd certainly put the Islanders in the "late stage" portion of one.
Isles needed 3 things
-A legit winger for JT
-A top 4 Dman(preferably 2 of them)
-A goalie

This trade addresses the first one. A top 4 Dman is a need right now, but where are they getting one. The Isles should have gotten a goalie before the season even started IMO. But just because we NEED a Dman, doesnt mean we shouldnt fix another need, especially when there are no Dmen available.

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10-28-2013, 10:22 AM
  #487
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I think it was a very stupid trade. The NYI are nowhere near contenders, so why the rental? Vanek is going to MIN on July 1st.

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10-28-2013, 10:28 AM
  #488
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Originally Posted by wingnutks View Post
Isles needed 3 things
-A legit winger for JT
-A top 4 Dman(preferably 2 of them)
-A goalie

This trade addresses the first one. A top 4 Dman is a need right now, but where are they getting one. The Isles should have gotten a goalie before the season even started IMO. But just because we NEED a Dman, doesnt mean we shouldnt fix another need, especially when there are no Dmen available.
And that legit winger might leave for nothing, taking with him an asset that could have been used to get either a legit winger who is young and controllable, or a dman or a goalie. This looks like it was spending just to spend. Was moulson really that bad? He's got 118 over the same span that Vanek has 110. Vanek has 110 in about 20 less games, but I think you can also construe from that the fact that Vanek almost ALWAYS gets hurt. There are risks on both sides of this trade but the Isles bear the brunt of them.

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10-28-2013, 10:36 AM
  #489
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Originally Posted by Championship View Post
And that legit winger might leave for nothing, taking with him an asset that could have been used to get either a legit winger who is young and controllable, or a dman or a goalie. This looks like it was spending just to spend. Was moulson really that bad? He's got 118 over the same span that Vanek has 110. Vanek has 110 in about 20 less games, but I think you can also construe from that the fact that Vanek almost ALWAYS gets hurt. There are risks on both sides of this trade but the Isles bear the brunt of them.
Moulson was going to leave for nothing too.

Moulson was not bad, but he is HORRIBLE 5v5. And he does nothing by himself. He is great on the PP. But the problem is he isnt a threat 5v5, he doesnt carry the puck. There was a reason he was moved off JT's line in the Pens series last year, and a reason he was moved off JTs line this year. I think Vanek will produce a bit more the Mouslon did with JT, but I also think JT will produce more with Vanek. With Vanek being able to handle the puck more, and carry it himself, teams will have to worry about Vanek carrying the puck AND where JT is, even when he doesnt have the puck.

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10-28-2013, 10:38 AM
  #490
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Originally Posted by wingnutks View Post
Moulson was going to leave for nothing too.

Moulson was not bad, but he is HORRIBLE 5v5. And he does nothing by himself. He is great on the PP. But the problem is he isnt a threat 5v5, he doesnt carry the puck. There was a reason he was moved off JT's line in the Pens series last year, and a reason he was moved off JTs line this year. I think Vanek will produce a bit more the Mouslon did with JT, but I also think JT will produce more with Vanek. With Vanek being able to handle the puck more, and carry it himself, teams will have to worry about Vanek carrying the puck AND where JT is, even when he doesnt have the puck.
Again, if Moulson left, does he also take the Isles 1st and 2nd round (2015) picks? Moulson could only have been traded for a UFA who is highly rumored to sign in Minnesota much in the same way that Brad Richards was rumored to the Rangers all season? Moulson might have left for nothing but if Vanek leaves its incredibly poor asset management.

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10-28-2013, 10:44 AM
  #491
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Originally Posted by Championship View Post
I don't think the problem is trading away draft picks insomuch as it's trading away draft picks and not addressing a need, and trading them for what may be a rental instead of young, controllable asset. If he re-signs then this is a complete win for the Isles. No re-sign, a first round exit, Vanek misses significant time from injury and this could look bad. I think there are many stages to a rebuild and it'd certainly put the Islanders in the "late stage" portion of one.
Elite talent is/was certainly a need for them. Any player can be injured, so that's a risk anyone will take. Even if Vanek walks after an early playoff exit, all the Islanders did was deal a couple picks that won't help them for at least 2 or 3 years. No big deal, especially with guys like Nelson, Strome and Reinhart likely ready for major duty next season.

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10-28-2013, 10:45 AM
  #492
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Again, if Moulson left, does he also take the Isles 1st and 2nd round (2015) picks? Moulson could only have been traded for a UFA who is highly rumored to sign in Minnesota much in the same way that Brad Richards was rumored to the Rangers all season? Moulson might have left for nothing but if Vanek leaves its incredibly poor asset management.
Who really cares about a 2nd round 2015 pick? Odds of that pick ever playing in the NHL is less than 50%. Losing the first round sucks, BUT if you are shooting to improve on last year, you have to make decisions based on that. That would mean that their 2014 1st would be well outside the top 10.
Teams looking to make a run at the playoffs would have given up at least a first rounder at the deadline to rent a player like Vanek for a playoff run. The Isles get him for 90% of the season.
Its risky, which is why I am blah on the trade. But where the Isles are at, it is time to do stuff like this. Not worry about our 2015 pick that MAY play for us in 2018/2019.

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10-28-2013, 10:49 AM
  #493
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Elite talent is/was certainly a need for them. Any player can be injured, so that's a risk anyone will take. Even if Vanek walks after an early playoff exit, all the Islanders did was deal a couple picks that won't help them for at least 2 or 3 years. No big deal, especially with guys like Nelson, Strome and Reinhart likely ready for major duty next season.
Sure any player can be injured, but are some more likely than others? Yes. Vanek is a known band-aid boy. We have intimate knowledge that some players are more prone to injury than others. Higher risk than normal.

Again, it's not about the players the picks turn into (draft), it's the players you get back from trading those picks. 2014 1st is gone. They traded it for something they really didn't need. The Isles have scored 35 goals and given up 36. The Isles aren't winning the cup this year, which can make this deal extremely short sighted.

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10-28-2013, 10:51 AM
  #494
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Was it a known fact that Moulson was going to leave or just a rumor? Why would he ever want to leave JT's side?

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10-28-2013, 10:51 AM
  #495
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Originally Posted by wingnutks View Post
Isles needed 3 things
-A legit winger for JT
-A top 4 Dman(preferably 2 of them)
-A goalie


This trade addresses the first one. A top 4 Dman is a need right now, but where are they getting one. The Isles should have gotten a goalie before the season even started IMO. But just because we NEED a Dman, doesnt mean we shouldnt fix another need, especially when there are no Dmen available.
Not in that order though.

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10-28-2013, 10:54 AM
  #496
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Who really cares about a 2nd round 2015 pick? Odds of that pick ever playing in the NHL is less than 50%. Losing the first round sucks, BUT if you are shooting to improve on last year, you have to make decisions based on that. That would mean that their 2014 1st would be well outside the top 10.
Teams looking to make a run at the playoffs would have given up at least a first rounder at the deadline to rent a player like Vanek for a playoff run. The Isles get him for 90% of the season.
Its risky, which is why I am blah on the trade. But where the Isles are at, it is time to do stuff like this. Not worry about our 2015 pick that MAY play for us in 2018/2019.
If you trade your 1st round pick for something that you don't necessarily need, you can't trade it for something that you do later on. It's not about the player you draft. You say that they Isles needed a top line winger for JT, while that may be true, that should have been at the bottom on their list of priorities.

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10-28-2013, 10:55 AM
  #497
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Was it a known fact that Moulson was going to leave or just a rumor? Why would he ever want to leave JT's side?
Rumor was they started throwing around talks and numbers awhile ago, and it wasent looking like it was going to happen.

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Not in that order though.
Definitely not.

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10-28-2013, 10:56 AM
  #498
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Originally Posted by Championship View Post
If you trade your 1st round pick for something that you don't necessarily need, you can't trade it for something that you do later on. It's not about the player you draft. You say that they Isles needed a top line winger for JT, while that may be true, that should have been at the bottom on their list of priorities.
It was a need!
Can you please tell me which Dman we should get right now?

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10-28-2013, 11:01 AM
  #499
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It was a need!
Can you please tell me which Dman we should get right now?
It's a need like a brand new car is a need when you need to food and shelter.

Just because there isn't a D-man available right now, does that mean that there won't be one in the future?

How many more games are the Islanders going to win if the goal scoring goes up but the the rate at which they give up goals stays the same? How much better is the offense actually going to be?

Have you ever heard of "buying just to buy"?

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10-28-2013, 11:04 AM
  #500
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It's a need like a brand new car is a need when you need to food and shelter.

Just because there isn't a D-man available right now, does that mean that there won't be one in the future?

How many more games are the Islanders going to win if the goal scoring goes up but the the rate at which they give up goals stays the same? How much better is the offense actually going to be?

Have you ever heard of "buying just to buy"?
I get what your saying, but if you need a legit 1st line winger... how often does someone of Vaneks caliber become available?

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