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KHL is currently dominated by non-Russian players

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Old
10-14-2013, 04:10 PM
  #1
Peter25
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KHL is currently dominated by non-Russian players

Here are the current scoring leaders of the KHL: http://en.khl.ru/stat/leaders/244/pts/

Foreigners are pretty much dominating the league right now even if the two leading scorers are Russian (Mozyakin and Zaripov).

Out of top 30 scorers only nine are Russian.

Out of those nine Russian only two (Burmistrov and Panarin) are under 25. The two best Russians Mozyakin and Zaripov are veteran players.


And here is the scoring list for defensemen: http://en.khl.ru/stat/leaders/244/pts_def/

Top ten scoring leaders among defensemen are all non-Russian. The best Russian Oleg Piganovich is 11th on the list. Another thing to notice is the lack of young Russian defensemen on that list except for Yegor Martynov, Yegor Antropov (both pleasant surprises this year) and Andrei Sergeyev. The top scoring Russian defensemen Piganovich, Kalinin, Belov, Koltsov and Nikulin are all veterans.

It has to mentioned though that some Russian players such as Alexander Radulov, Evgeny Kuznetsov and Nikita Zaitsev who would probably be pretty high on scoring charts have been injured.

Russia has managed decently in the U20 WJC but it has not been able to produce as many good players from these age groups as it should have. The current success of foreigners in the KHL is a testament for lack of good Russian players.

The level of play of the KHL is pretty much dependent on foreign players right now. And to think Tretyak wanted to reduce the foreigner limit for Russian teams to two players

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10-14-2013, 04:17 PM
  #2
Peter25
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As for goalies most of the KHL teams have a non-Russian goalie as their number 1 goalie.

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10-14-2013, 04:24 PM
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Darth Yoda
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The fact that the two top scorers are 32 years old is not a problem. As a matter of fact a player often peaks around 30-32 so it's if anything a good thing to see that top russian players are staying in the KHL.
Other than that i think it's great that 21 of 30 in the scoring is non-russians. It gives the league legitimizy, although perhaps the leagues brass is not as happy as me, perhaps they would have liked just a little bit more russians there. One does have to be aware that 7 of the 28 teams are non-russian though, so maybe that actually is allright for everybody concerned. It's easy to see that those foreign teams can make up for that extra drop from 50 percent that the russians are experiencing.


Last edited by Darth Yoda: 10-16-2013 at 03:50 PM.
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10-14-2013, 04:41 PM
  #4
Peter25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
The fact that the two top scorers are 32 years old is not a problem.
But from Russian point of view the lack of young Russian players among the elite players in the KHL is a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
As a matter of fact a player often peaks around 30-32 so it's if anything a good thing to see that top russian players are staying in the KHL.
Neither Zaripov or Mozyakin are suited for the NHL. They are good (not great) players but with their style of play they would have zero success in the NHL.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Other than that i think it's great that 21 of 30 in the scoring is non-russians. It gives the league legitimizy,
You are correct that from international point of view the success of foreigners in the KHL make it a more interesting league. For Finnish fans it makes the KHL more interesting to see players like Hietanen, Immonen and Salminen being Torpedo's three best players. And watching Leo Komarov do his magic in Dynamo. And seeing Jori Lehterä and Petri Kontiola being among the best centers in the league.

But for Russia this is not good because their league (KHL is mainly a Russian league) is looking more and more like Swiss or German league where most of the best players are foreigners. This should at least tell the people in Russian Hockey Federation that there is something wrong in junior hockey in Russia.

In the 1990's Russia had much more good players than it has today mainly because of the legacy of Soviet hockey system. The NHL was filled with good Russians. Swiss, German, Finnish and Swedish leagues had loads of good Russian players. There were good Russians such as Barkov, Tkachuk, Maslennikov and Vostrikov playing even in Italy in those days. And even the Russian league was pretty good even in the 1990's (teams like Yaroslavl, Togliatti, Dynamo and Magnitogorsk were among the best teams in Europe in the 1990's).

The number of elite Russian hockey players has declined pretty dramatically from what it was back then. The NHL has only a handful of Russian players. Other Euro leagues are practically void from any Russian players. And the Russian league (KHL) itself is mostly dominated by the foreigners.


Last edited by Peter25: 10-14-2013 at 04:49 PM.
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Old
10-14-2013, 11:29 PM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
You are correct that from international point of view the success of foreigners in the KHL make it a more interesting league. For Finnish fans it makes the KHL more interesting to see players like Hietanen, Immonen and Salminen being Torpedo's three best players. And watching Leo Komarov do his magic in Dynamo. And seeing Jori Lehterä and Petri Kontiola being among the best centers in the league.

But for Russia this is not good because their league (KHL is mainly a Russian league) is looking more and more like Swiss or German league where most of the best players are foreigners. This should at least tell the people in Russian Hockey Federation that there is something wrong in junior hockey in Russia.

In the 1990's Russia had much more good players than it has today mainly because of the legacy of Soviet hockey system. The NHL was filled with good Russians. Swiss, German, Finnish and Swedish leagues had loads of good Russian players. There were good Russians such as Barkov, Tkachuk, Maslennikov and Vostrikov playing even in Italy in those days. And even the Russian league was pretty good even in the 1990's (teams like Yaroslavl, Togliatti, Dynamo and Magnitogorsk were among the best teams in Europe in the 1990's).

The number of elite Russian hockey players has declined pretty dramatically from what it was back then. The NHL has only a handful of Russian players. Other Euro leagues are practically void from any Russian players. And the Russian league (KHL) itself is mostly dominated by the foreigners.
I have to ask... is this a surprise considering the plundering of the history when russia got robbed by the wealth transfers to the oligarchs (yeltsin's and putin's buddies) in the 1990s? With wealth flowing into private hands and not into sport, I consider what we have today to be a rather good result. (((

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10-15-2013, 12:06 AM
  #6
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In comparison to NHL, only 4 of the top 30 is from the USA, 14 Canadian and 12 European.

To me this would be a better comparison, and to compare USA and Russia since both countries has the majority of teams.

And I suppose Finnish(more or less), Czech, Slovak, Belorussian, Kazakh, Ukrainian, Latvian and Hungrian could be compared to Canada with players, as they belong to the league as much as Canadians belong to NHL, with teams in the leagues.

And if we do it like this, which should be very natural to do in a comparison we have.

9 foreigners in the KHL compared to 12 in the NHL, top 30.
21 league bound players in the KHL compared to 18 in the NHL, top 30. And if we don't count Finnish players until next season, it's 19 KHL. Very equal.

With this post I mean to say that I don't really see anything odd.

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10-15-2013, 01:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robwangjing View Post
In comparison to NHL, only 4 of the top 30 is from the USA, 14 Canadian and 12 European.

To me this would be a better comparison, and to compare USA and Russia since both countries has the majority of teams.

And I suppose Finnish(more or less), Czech, Slovak, Belorussian, Kazakh, Ukrainian, Latvian and Hungrian could be compared to Canada with players, as they belong to the league as much as Canadians belong to NHL, with teams in the leagues.

And if we do it like this, which should be very natural to do in a comparison we have.

9 foreigners in the KHL compared to 12 in the NHL, top 30.
21 league bound players in the KHL compared to 18 in the NHL, top 30. And if we don't count Finnish players until next season, it's 19 KHL. Very equal.

With this post I mean to say that I don't really see anything odd.
I think you need to take a step back and look at Russian hockey in the mid 1990s compared to today. Where is that big influence? It's gone.

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10-15-2013, 02:20 AM
  #8
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Originally Posted by loppa View Post
I think you need to take a step back and look at Russian hockey in the mid 1990s compared to today. Where is that big influence? It's gone.
I don't know much of Russian or any hockey during that period. Hockey is still new to me and many Asians. Please explain to me the difference you see, I am willing to learn.

For me if I look at the KHL, if the KHL wants to become a strong international league like the NHL it is moving in the right direction, is it not?

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10-15-2013, 02:33 AM
  #9
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i think it's great, the league is mostly russian in players by a wide margin but if the top end is dominated by other nationals, that just mean the talent pool is getting pushed up higher

competition is good, not just for the league, but for development of russian players. it's very darwinian in a survival of the fittest sense.

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10-15-2013, 02:56 AM
  #10
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Who cares...Russian, non-russian...

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10-15-2013, 02:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
i think it's great, the league is mostly russian in players by a wide margin but if the top end is dominated by other nationals, that just mean the talent pool is getting pushed up higher

competition is good, not just for the league, but for development of russian players. it's very darwinian in a survival of the fittest sense.
Exactly,this is why i dont understand all those russians who want to baby sit the young upcomming star/s in the teams system,let him/them earn the spot on the team as opposed to just giving it right away,if he prevails good,if not its the players own fault.

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10-15-2013, 03:00 AM
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Why does the "scoring leaders among defensemen" category seem to be relevant for so many people on the internet? It's quite a specific characteristic that signifies the offensive skills of a defensman, first of all his role on power play. Well, the pp specialists are the exact type of players you see in that top 10, and only one of them is in the plus/minus top 10. I guess there's not enough good power play quarterbacks available among the Russian players, I can see that, and, going back to the young guys, it's not like it would be a position for a less experienced player to fill.

Is it bad? I don't think so, it provides a better level of hockey. Is the KHL not Russian enough? It's more Russian than the Russian soccer or basketball leagues are.

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10-15-2013, 03:24 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loppa View Post
I have to ask... is this a surprise considering the plundering of the history when russia got robbed by the wealth transfers to the oligarchs (yeltsin's and putin's buddies) in the 1990s? With wealth flowing into private hands and not into sport, I consider what we have today to be a rather good result. (((
"Oligarchs" were the main benefactors of Russian hockey during its post-Soviet history. Most of the elite hockey schools survive thanks to the corporate support they get being a part of the major club systems. It may sound frustrating and wrong on different levels, but without the tycoons like Rashnikov and "Putin's friends" like Yakunin you'd probably never hear of players like Malkin and Varlamov.

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10-15-2013, 10:47 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
But for Russia this is not good because their league (KHL is mainly a Russian league) is looking more and more like Swiss or German league where most of the best players are foreigners. This should at least tell the people in Russian Hockey Federation that there is something wrong in junior hockey in Russia.
Not true. In Switzerland, the increase of overall hockey quality (culminating with the silver medal at this years WC, which, by russian standards, may look silly, but in Switzerland was celebrated as a REAL achievement) went hand in hand with the increase of the quantity/quality of the imports. No need here to mention Bykov and Khomutov, who still are remembered likes Gods in Switzerland. This triggered more interest in hockey and led to more competitive swiss players, who had to battle their way into NLA rosters, sometimes even outplaying the foreigners, and now start also to bounce over to NHL (by the way, I'd love to see my favorite goal tender, Reto Berra, in the KHL, maybe in SKA...Probably won't happen, but dreaming is still allowed..)

Germany is different. You just cannot compete with soccer there, no way....

Anyway, I wouldn't mix up things: KHL is a finished product to sell, not a means to develop your country's hockey program. The aim should be to have to sell it possibly world wide, which means to have at least some of the best players around in the KHL (regardless of their origins).

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10-15-2013, 11:04 AM
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Russia, hockey, 90's.

@robwangjing
That era is not exactly the golden age of anything in Russia especially a hockey. Just look at the "success" of Russian national team in these 20 years to take a deeper look in the 90's and what "improvement" they brought to russian hockey.

Peter25 again?
KHL is not a development league for Russian young talent. Period.


Last edited by FreshFruit: 10-15-2013 at 11:10 AM.
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10-15-2013, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BalticWarrior View Post
Exactly,this is why i dont understand all those russians who want to baby sit the young upcomming star/s in the teams system,let him/them earn the spot on the team as opposed to just giving it right away,if he prevails good,if not its the players own fault.
LOL it's ridiculous to think that in Russia a place on a team is just ''given'' to a youngster. Where do you see it? With the KHLs U22 regulation??
In SHL and other top European leagues tons of U20 guys are just given places on the team based on the fact that they may succeed some day. Even with Latvians, Edgars Kļaviņš in AIK last year, or this year both 1994 born goalies in Swiss NLA... Have you seen Russian teams giving a chance to foreign born U20 goalies in KHL anywhere?

It's only a problem if you compare the league with NHL and see that NHL do not have U22 clause. If you compare with other top European leagues, KHL is an extremely unwelcome league for young players.... And I see it is only natural that fans want more talented players in teams, even though the current Russian talent development is lacking. Russian and pretty much other East European players generally suffer from being lazy ******** who do not want to work out or work in defense but just think their skills will be their bread and butter. Don't know why this laziness exists, perhaps it's just a reflection of the countries themselves poor state with corruption, lazy bureaucrats, politicians etc.

Though I don't think that the current KHL state with top players is that bad, cause if we compare to Europeans, Russians aren't dominated much but one nation. In fact there are much more Czechs than, say, Swedes but everyone knows that Swedes are the best at youth development in Europe and Czechs are... well, behind. I think it says more about the state of Czech league vs SHL than anything else. There are a lot of North Americans, but that's understandable cause North America produces a massive amount of talent and these guys have to play somewhere....

As per Russians in NHL, I don't think the issues is as big as people paint it to be. In 90s there were so many Russians in NHL also because Russian league was piss poor (in all senses), even if there were some good clubs, the salaries weren't that good. If there was no KHL and the league was in the same state as it once was, there would be helluva lot more Russians in NHL and European leagues.

Also you shouldn't forget that the number of Russian teams has risen and in KHL there are 21 clubs now (almost the same as SHL and Liiga together), and with the foreigner limit somebody has to play there. Add to that some foreign clubs on which Russians are still welcome (even Riga had Karamnov once). Every new Russian club is extra 20 players staying in Russia, also number of VHL clubs has risen. It's not about there being less talented Russians, it's more about ever growing number of clubs in KHL and other Russian leagues and the big salaries there.

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10-15-2013, 03:08 PM
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Thats good news, means more talent coming to league

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10-15-2013, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by obskyr View Post
"Oligarchs" were the main benefactors of Russian hockey during its post-Soviet history. Most of the elite hockey schools survive thanks to the corporate support they get being a part of the major club systems. It may sound frustrating and wrong on different levels, but without the tycoons like Rashnikov and "Putin's friends" like Yakunin you'd probably never hear of players like Malkin and Varlamov.
That's naive.

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10-15-2013, 07:49 PM
  #19
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Originally Posted by FreshFruit View Post
Peter25 again?
KHL is not a development league for Russian young talent. Period.
It is. It is our top level league. You don't have a say in it. Period.

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10-16-2013, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Latgale_fan View Post
LOL it's ridiculous to think that in Russia a place on a team is just ''given'' to a youngster. Where do you see it? With the KHLs U22 regulation??
In SHL and other top European leagues tons of U20 guys are just given places on the team based on the fact that they may succeed some day. Even with Latvians, Edgars Kļaviņš in AIK last year, or this year both 1994 born goalies in Swiss NLA... Have you seen Russian teams giving a chance to foreign born U20 goalies in KHL anywhere?

It's only a problem if you compare the league with NHL and see that NHL do not have U22 clause. If you compare with other top European leagues, KHL is an extremely unwelcome league for young players.... And I see it is only natural that fans want more talented players in teams, even though the current Russian talent development is lacking. Russian and pretty much other East European players generally suffer from being lazy ******** who do not want to work out or work in defense but just think their skills will be their bread and butter. Don't know why this laziness exists, perhaps it's just a reflection of the countries themselves poor state with corruption, lazy bureaucrats, politicians etc.

Though I don't think that the current KHL state with top players is that bad, cause if we compare to Europeans, Russians aren't dominated much but one nation. In fact there are much more Czechs than, say, Swedes but everyone knows that Swedes are the best at youth development in Europe and Czechs are... well, behind. I think it says more about the state of Czech league vs SHL than anything else. There are a lot of North Americans, but that's understandable cause North America produces a massive amount of talent and these guys have to play somewhere....

As per Russians in NHL, I don't think the issues is as big as people paint it to be. In 90s there were so many Russians in NHL also because Russian league was piss poor (in all senses), even if there were some good clubs, the salaries weren't that good. If there was no KHL and the league was in the same state as it once was, there would be helluva lot more Russians in NHL and European leagues.

Also you shouldn't forget that the number of Russian teams has risen and in KHL there are 21 clubs now (almost the same as SHL and Liiga together), and with the foreigner limit somebody has to play there. Add to that some foreign clubs on which Russians are still welcome (even Riga had Karamnov once). Every new Russian club is extra 20 players staying in Russia, also number of VHL clubs has risen. It's not about there being less talented Russians, it's more about ever growing number of clubs in KHL and other Russian leagues and the big salaries there.
I agree with you. I just have one note. I would not compare SHL and KHL (young players). SHL is development league, KHL is not. Lets compare youngsters/juniors in SHL/VHL, it would be more fair in my eyes.

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10-16-2013, 11:53 AM
  #21
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Originally Posted by jaco View Post
Anyway, I wouldn't mix up things: KHL is a finished product to sell, not a means to develop your country's hockey program. The aim should be to have to sell it possibly world wide, which means to have at least some of the best players around in the KHL (regardless of their origins).
It's wishful thinking from non-russian fans. Just for a second imagine the NHL wouldn't be a place where canadian and US players would develop on top level. Try telling Americans they have to send the Shattenkirks and Quicks to some USHL for development because the NHL is a "finished product" and not a plce for developing talent. It would be ridiculous.

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10-16-2013, 12:31 PM
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well Altas its not a Russian league. it doesnt present itself as one nor strives for it. It wants to be a pan European - (maybe pan) Asian league striving towards profit from that. So your xenophobic, childish outburst is just plane old stupid (and btw isn't FreshFruit also russian?). It desires, as a business, a superior product and spreading of hockey to underdeveloped(,in hockey sense but enthusiastic) and developed countries, which i agree should be IIHF's job but they r dumb. Why? With spreading n advancement of hockey in the underdeveloped (in hockey sense) country they attract spectators, from who they get money (same is happening in NHL). They wount be able to do it without professionalism and with the "this is a Russian league n u are guests" approach. They also want to increase the quality of russian players n development of them by raising the overall quality of the teams n competition. U got to push the player to play better faster n tougher at every game. Raising the foreign limit is good fr them as they will strive to get into the khl team more n have to work harder for it, deserve it and they will be able to learn from betters and play them.

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10-16-2013, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by bobbeaver View Post
well Altas its not a Russian league. it doesnt present itself as one nor strives for it. It wants to be a pan European - (maybe pan) Asian league striving towards profit from that. So your xenophobic, childish outburst is just plane old stupid (and btw isn't FreshFruit also russian?). It desires, as a business, a superior product and spreading of hockey to underdeveloped(,in hockey sense but enthusiastic) and developed countries, which i agree should be IIHF's job but they r dumb. Why? With spreading n advancement of hockey in the underdeveloped (in hockey sense) country they attract spectators, from who they get money (same is happening in NHL). They wount be able to do it without professionalism and with the "this is a Russian league n u are guests" approach. They also want to increase the quality of russian players n development of them by raising the overall quality of the teams n competition. U got to push the player to play better faster n tougher at every game. Raising the foreign limit is good fr them as they will strive to get into the khl team more n have to work harder for it, deserve it and they will be able to learn from betters and play them.
Agree

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10-16-2013, 01:16 PM
  #24
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Stop attacking posters if you disagree with them. This topic is worth discussing and both sides have the right to their opinion.

This is the last warning.

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10-16-2013, 02:08 PM
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Atas is right here. The KHL is Russia's top level league because all the best Russian clubs play in the KHL. KHL is an international league and Russia's top level league at the same time.


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