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The KHL Discuss the Continental Hockey League (Kontinentalnaya Hokkeynaya Liga).

KHL is currently dominated by non-Russian players

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Old
10-16-2013, 03:12 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
i think it's great, the league is mostly russian in players by a wide margin but if the top end is dominated by other nationals, that just mean the talent pool is getting pushed up higher

competition is good, not just for the league, but for development of russian players. it's very darwinian in a survival of the fittest sense.
I fully agree with this.

I find Tretyak's and FHR's attemps to limit the number of foreigners in the KHL foolish. They want less foreigners so that the Russian players can shine more? But how does this make Russian players better?

The current limit of 5 foreigners per Russian team still leaves 17 spots for Russian players for each team. The problem is NOT too many foreign players in the KHL. The problem is that Russia does not produce enough good players. Reducing the number of foreigners in the KHL does not help Russian junior program in any way.

Hopefully Medvedev and co. also realize this and don't allow the FHR influence them in any way.

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10-16-2013, 03:14 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
Atas is right here. The KHL is Russia's top level league because all the best Russian clubs play in the KHL. KHL is an international league and Russia's top level league at the same time.
yes, it's both, that's why the Russian Championship is awarded as the league's Presidents Trophy equivalent. It's a national title in an international league; it's weird but a display of the transition. Thinking of the KHL as just a Russian national team development league is old world thinking. The KHL is going to be much more than a lowly national league in the splintered European landscape.

Just want to point out as well, imagine American NHL teams having a foreigner restriction in the interest of developing American players. The league would be diluted to hell and awful. It wouldn't be the elite pinnacle league it is today.


Last edited by Sokil: 10-16-2013 at 03:23 PM.
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10-16-2013, 03:18 PM
  #28
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You must have Putin picture somewhere in your bedroom that you salute every time you walk by
or maybe Zhirinovsky

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10-16-2013, 03:20 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Atas2000 View Post
It's wishful thinking from non-russian fans. Just for a second imagine the NHL wouldn't be a place where canadian and US players would develop on top level. Try telling Americans they have to send the Shattenkirks and Quicks to some USHL for development because the NHL is a "finished product" and not a plce for developing talent. It would be ridiculous.
Shattenkirk played in the AHL and Quick paid his dues in the AHL/ECHL. Your point is lost.

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10-16-2013, 03:38 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
I fully agree with this.

I find Tretyak's and FHR's attemps to limit the number of foreigners in the KHL foolish. They want less foreigners so that the Russian players can shine more? But how does this make Russian players better?

The current limit of 5 foreigners per Russian team still leaves 17 spots for Russian players for each team. The problem is NOT too many foreign players in the KHL. The problem is that Russia does not produce enough good players. Reducing the number of foreigners in the KHL does not help Russian junior program in any way.

Hopefully Medvedev and co. also realize this and don't allow the FHR influence them in any way.
I have to quote you by saying "I fully agree with this."

Guys I recommend you to listen this radio show. Shalaev speaking about KHL nowadays and in future. Interview was made a few hours after Fasel announced "WHC every year programme" a few weeks back. Shalaev speaks about foreign limits, expansion etc. Very interesting (as all his interviews at this radio and not only).

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10-16-2013, 05:00 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
I have to quote you by saying "I fully agree with this."

Guys I recommend you to listen this radio show. Shalaev speaking about KHL nowadays and in future. Interview was made a few hours after Fasel announced "WHC every year programme" a few weeks back. Shalaev speaks about foreign limits, expansion etc. Very interesting (as all his interviews at this radio and not only).
May be interesting to listen to, but unfortunately it's in russian.

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10-16-2013, 10:55 PM
  #32
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Some person mentioned that the 1990s were bad in terms of russian hockey, and some empirical evidence is supposedly the poor performance on the international level.



Okay, perhaps. But that misses the key points. The key points are that hockey players were that all these russians went overseas and filled foreign leagues, providing much talent. Nowadays such a thing is impossible, because the russians plainly do not have enough of that talent to go abroad. The 1990s saw russian talent get sucked out of russia, and new talent was not produced to supplant that talent. In the soviet system there was so much investment from the government into hockey. It was a system that produced many players. That stopped and as a result there are not as many good players out there and we can probably agree that russian hockey overall is worse than it was before. There is no longer a potential to swamp the west with players like happened in teh 1990s. Swamping the west with such players was not a good thing for russian hockey per se - but it is simply proof of how beaming with hockey russia was back then, today it is not...


...that's the point that peter was trying to make I think. I don't know if it is totally accurate but I totally see this as a plausible picture.


Last edited by stv11: 10-17-2013 at 06:02 AM.
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10-17-2013, 12:22 AM
  #33
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I'd hate to be too statistical, but a good measuring stick be to take the % of top 20 scorers and compare it to the foreigner % of the league. You could also take top 20 for each category and compare the % of foreigners to the amount in the league. This would reduce statistical bias somewhat.

If the number is higher, it would be a good indication there aren't enough foreigners in the league and the limit should be reduced, and if lower vice versa.

Example: Current foreigner ratio in the league is 40% but top 20 points scorers there are 70% foreigners. That means that the average foreigner is in the league is currently better than the average Russian and to lower that average, more foreigners and less Russians are to be desired until there is an equilibrium where average Russian is = to average foreigner.

Numbers measuring quality is hardly an exact science, but when the analysis leads to trends overwhelmingly in one direction, there is a good indication (ie. 40% to 70%, 5% variance between variables might be acceptable random statistical error, but certainly not 30%).

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10-17-2013, 01:23 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by malkinfan View Post
Example: Current foreigner ratio in the league is 40% but top 20 points scorers there are 70% foreigners. That means that the average foreigner is in the league is currently better than the average Russian and to lower that average, more foreigners and less Russians are to be desired until there is an equilibrium where average Russian is = to average foreigner.
The avergae foreign player cannot be equal to the average Russian player by default. They always get signed to fill the top lines. It's not like the NHL, where the foreigners are given time to develop, if a foreigner doesn't produce well in a Russian club he gets fired without a second thought.

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10-17-2013, 04:16 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loppa View Post
Some person mentioned that the 1990s were bad in terms of russian hockey, and some empirical evidence is supposedly the poor performance on the international level.



Okay, perhaps. But that misses the key points. The key points are that hockey players were that all these russians went overseas and filled foreign leagues, providing much talent. Nowadays such a thing is impossible, because the russians plainly do not have enough of that talent to go abroad. The 1990s saw russian talent get sucked out of russia, and new talent was not produced to supplant that talent. In the soviet system there was so much investment from the government into hockey. It was a system that produced many players. That stopped and as a result there are not as many good players out there and we can probably agree that russian hockey overall is worse than it was before. There is no longer a potential to swamp the west with players like happened in teh 1990s. Swamping the west with such players was not a good thing for russian hockey per se - but it is simply proof of how beaming with hockey russia was back then, today it is not...
I don't agree. All in all Russian player pool most likely is exactly where it was at the beginning of nineties. If hypothetically, iron curtain would fall today, you would see just as many players heading west as in nineties. NA would rave at talant becoming available - all these Malkins, Ovechkins (who would most likely be former linemates on CSKA roster), coming over would easily become Mogilny's and Bure's of our time.

Also would love to see you to expand on the part I bolded. I'm asking this just because I think you have no idea how much money regional governments in Russia still pump into hockey. Even further, the main man of the country still helps out CSKA, supposedly invents a team in Vladivostok and so on.


Last edited by ozo: 10-17-2013 at 04:27 AM.
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10-17-2013, 04:17 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by obskyr View Post
The avergae foreign player cannot be equal to the average Russian player by default. They always get signed to fill the top lines. It's not like the NHL, where the foreigners are given time to develop, if a foreigner doesn't produce well in a Russian club he gets fired without a second thought.
Radivojevic and Cibak saying hello.

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10-17-2013, 04:26 AM
  #37
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And time for mod's post. Every post that disappears here, disappears not because it's too political, but because most likely the post flat out is an offtopic and doesn't even try to touch hockey as such. Offtopic breeds offtopic, and in this subsection of the boards it escalates quickly and usually splits regular visitors in two mean, mean camps.

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10-17-2013, 04:28 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Radivojevic and Cibak saying hello.
Lel, it's really surprsing that Branko goes on for so long with his misfortunes. I guess picking a poor club managed by not very smart people should be a life hack tip for foreign players in Russia.

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10-17-2013, 10:53 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by ozo View Post
And time for mod's post. Every post that disappears here, disappears not because it's too political, but because most likely the post flat out is an offtopic and doesn't even try to touch hockey as such. Offtopic breeds offtopic, and in this subsection of the boards it escalates quickly and usually splits regular visitors in two mean, mean camps.
Fighting is allowed in hockey.

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10-17-2013, 10:58 AM
  #40
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I don't agree. All in all Russian player pool most likely is exactly where it was at the beginning of nineties. If hypothetically, iron curtain would fall today, you would see just as many players heading west as in nineties. NA would rave at talant becoming available - all these Malkins, Ovechkins (who would most likely be former linemates on CSKA roster), coming over would easily become Mogilny's and Bure's of our time.

Also would love to see you to expand on the part I bolded. I'm asking this just because I think you have no idea how much money regional governments in Russia still pump into hockey. Even further, the main man of the country still helps out CSKA, supposedly invents a team in Vladivostok and so on.
I agree. I think some people equate 'less NHL Russians' with 'less good Russians', but the reality is that in the 90s there was a gold rush that occurred when the wall came down, and every Russian fielded offers to finally make money, and every team tried to catch lightning in a bottle and get their own Mogilny

Enter today, where besides not even bothering to draft Russians who don't have high end potential (any 3rd liner type is just ignored entirely) the KHL also means that it's risky to draft high end potential Russians as well. Remember when Cherepanov fell to 17th overall due to risk? If a kid isn't playing in the CHL with teams knowing he wants to play in north america, he'll fall in the draft or not get drafted at all.

And this created the logical fallacy of Russia not being as good as it used to at producing players.

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10-17-2013, 11:14 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
I agree. I think some people equate 'less NHL Russians' with 'less good Russians', but the reality is that in the 90s there was a gold rush that occurred when the wall came down, and every Russian fielded offers to finally make money, and every team tried to catch lightning in a bottle and get their own Mogilny

Enter today, where besides not even bothering to draft Russians who don't have high end potential (any 3rd liner type is just ignored entirely) the KHL also means that it's risky to draft high end potential Russians as well. Remember when Cherepanov fell to 17th overall due to risk? If a kid isn't playing in the CHL with teams knowing he wants to play in north america, he'll fall in the draft or not get drafted at all.

And this created the logical fallacy of Russia not being as good as it used to at producing players.
Yeah. Best-on-Best Team Russia of today is every bit as good as the early nineties edition. Some NHL players, some in the KHL.

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10-17-2013, 01:27 PM
  #42
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I agree with you. I just have one note. I would not compare SHL and KHL (young players). SHL is development league, KHL is not. Lets compare youngsters/juniors in SHL/VHL, it would be more fair in my eyes.
I think that SHL tshouldn't be compared to VHL. SHL is a far better league obviously and it's a development league ONLY to NHL. If compared to Czechs and Finns there are not that many Swedes in KHL actually (21 or so, still a decent number) and we have to take into account the fact that Sweden has a lot of talent to offer (and the fact that top league in the country only consists of 12 teams).

Perhaps you could say that the average level in KHL is higher and therefore less youngsters play there, but I wouldn't call SHL a development league.

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10-17-2013, 01:37 PM
  #43
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I think that SHL tshouldn't be compared to VHL. SHL is a far better league obviously and it's a development league ONLY to NHL. If compared to Czechs and Finns there are not that many Swedes in KHL actually (21 or so, still a decent number) and we have to take into account the fact that Sweden has a lot of talent to offer (and the fact that top league in the country only consists of 12 teams).

Perhaps you could say that the average level in KHL is higher and therefore less youngsters play there, but I wouldn't call SHL a development league.
It is not about how good/bad is/is not KHL/VHL/SHL/Allsvenskan. It is about philosophy of the league. NHL is "final destination" for players in NA hockey system, AHL is developing league. SHL is developing league as well, you said "it's a development league ONLY to NHL." or do you think that swedish league has ambition to lure best euro players from NHL/KHL to its clubs? KHL has ambition to lure best Euros... SHL does not have. Swedes accepted the fact that they are and will be developing league. Yes, SHL is better than VHL because swedish developing model produces more good players or better than russian model. NOW.

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10-17-2013, 01:54 PM
  #44
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Shattenkirk played in the AHL and Quick paid his dues in the AHL/ECHL. Your point is lost.
You have no idea what you are writing about. How is spending time in the AHL proof for NHL not being a final step in US player's development? The point is if those players would stay in the AHL do you really think they would reach their ceiling? But that's what you want to suggest for russian players and the VHL.


Last edited by Atas2000: 10-17-2013 at 02:00 PM.
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10-17-2013, 01:58 PM
  #45
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Yeah. Best-on-Best Team Russia of today is every bit as good as the early nineties edition. Some NHL players, some in the KHL.
The thing is you are not counting correctly. The 90s hole is still to come. It's when the Kovy/Ovi/Malkin/Syomin generation retires/gets old where we should start to compare. They are still the last products of the soviet system. It didn't fell apart in a day, you know. It's when we have to ice a team of 1988 to 1993 born where we have worries.

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10-17-2013, 02:03 PM
  #46
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I don't agree. All in all Russian player pool most likely is exactly where it was at the beginning of nineties. If hypothetically, iron curtain would fall today, you would see just as many players heading west as in nineties. NA would rave at talant becoming available - all these Malkins, Ovechkins (who would most likely be former linemates on CSKA roster), coming over would easily become Mogilny's and Bure's of our time.

Also would love to see you to expand on the part I bolded. I'm asking this just because I think you have no idea how much money regional governments in Russia still pump into hockey. Even further, the main man of the country still helps out CSKA, supposedly invents a team in Vladivostok and so on.
They are selling out seats pretty quick, so what's the problem with that?

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10-17-2013, 02:46 PM
  #47
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I think that SHL tshouldn't be compared to VHL.
Yep.

In lineup for Frölunda today:

John Klingberg 92 DAL
Erik Gustafsson 92 EDM
Tom Nilsson 93 TOR
Sebastian Collberg 94 MTL
Alex Wennberg 94 CBJ
Andreas Johnsson 94 TOR
Erik Karlsson 94 CAR
Gustav Rydahl 94

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10-17-2013, 02:51 PM
  #48
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Yep.

In lineup for Frölunda today:

John Klingberg 92 DAL
Erik Gustafsson 92 EDM
Tom Nilsson 93 TOR
Sebastian Collberg 94 MTL
Alex Wennberg 94 CBJ
Andreas Johnsson 94 TOR
Erik Karlsson 94 CAR
Gustav Rydahl 94
So I can compare to MHL then As all the guys are MHL eligible by age.
This though just a bit proves vorky's point that SHL can be seen as a development league, in KHL Russians wouldn't post which players have been drafted from one or another club as they believe KHL to be a good enough league in its own right to players to stay there and do not want to see them leave.

Though it's just a bit different philosophies between the two leagues.

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10-17-2013, 02:56 PM
  #49
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The thing is you are not counting correctly. The 90s hole is still to come. It's when the Kovy/Ovi/Malkin/Syomin generation retires/gets old where we should start to compare. They are still the last products of the soviet system. It didn't fell apart in a day, you know. It's when we have to ice a team of 1988 to 1993 born where we have worries.
what the hell are you talking about? kovalchuk/ovechkin/etc didn't start learning to skate until the USSR already collapsed. Ovechkin is a product of the Soviet system because he was 5 years old when the Soviet system still existed? What?

So when Ovechkin was 15 in the Dynamo school system in the year 2000, the 'Soviet system' 10 years dead still gets credit?

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You have no idea what you are writing about. How is spending time in the AHL proof for NHL not being a final step in US player's development? The point is if those players would stay in the AHL do you really think they would reach their ceiling? But that's what you want to suggest for russian players and the VHL.
They, like American players in the NHL/AHL system, should earn their roster spots, not be given spots simply because they are young and it's good for the US development program

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10-17-2013, 02:58 PM
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The thing is you are not counting correctly. The 90s hole is still to come. It's when the Kovy/Ovi/Malkin/Syomin generation retires/gets old where we should start to compare. They are still the last products of the soviet system. It didn't fell apart in a day, you know. It's when we have to ice a team of 1988 to 1993 born where we have worries.
You are unfortunately talking to a swede and we have just went through your predicted so called talent slump. We where worthless in the WJC for almost a decade until about 2007-2008 or something. Now we are producing talents again and the generation of Sedin and Zetterberg are still there to bridge the gap. Sure, we managed to scrap some top players out of our slump like Eriksson and Edler, but so do you with Yakupov and more. I would bet your such players are actually better than ours.

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