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KHL is currently dominated by non-Russian players

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Old
10-17-2013, 02:21 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Latgale_fan View Post
So I can compare to MHL then As all the guys are MHL eligible by age.
This though just a bit proves vorky's point that SHL can be seen as a development league, in KHL Russians wouldn't post which players have been drafted from one or another club as they believe KHL to be a good enough league in its own right to players to stay there and do not want to see them leave.

Though it's just a bit different philosophies between the two leagues.
Yes, plus look at these guys, some of them are signed by NHL clubs and loaned in Sweden. Swedish club can do nothing, has no right to players. You can say that loans are in football as well, but the systems are different. Football club has sometimes right to sign a deal with player after loan expires. Does swedish club have right to sign Collberg for multiple deal after the season? No. Does swedish club have right to sell the player (Collberg) to another club (in Sweden, Europe, NHL)? No. That is a problem and signal that you/your league is developing one. Of course it is not only one factor.

Btw, the big problem of KHL is not money, but no market with hockey players. Collberg´s don not play NHL but are signed by NHL and can not be signed by KHL club. It is not only about Swedes of course. There is no reason for Collberg to be signed by NHL if he does not play NHL. You can speak about developing, ok. Then I ask. Would be Collberg developed/coached different if signed by Frölunda (not NHL club like now)? No.

Will be fun when KHL clubs will be on par with NHL clubs by budgets.

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10-17-2013, 02:25 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Yeah. Best-on-Best Team Russia of today is every bit as good as the early nineties edition. Some NHL players, some in the KHL.
No. Between 1990 and 1994 Russia had much more elite players than it does today.

Kamensky, Bykov, Khomutov, Fetisov, Makarov, Larionov, Kasatonov, Konstantinov, Malakhov, Zubov, Bure, Fedorov, Mogilny, Kozlov, Zhamnov, Kovalev, Yashin, Nikolishin, Tatarinov, Byakin, Gusarov, Kravchuk, Nemchinov, Zelepukin, Kvartalnov, Titov, Kovalenko, Yushkevich, Zhitnik, D.Mironov, B.Mironov, Karpovtsev, Shendelev, Semak, Lomakin, Leonov, Semenov, Shiryayev, Khristich, Gonchar, Khmylev, Kasparaitis, Berezin, Borschevsky, Ulanov, Trefilov, Shtalenkov, Khabibulin...

Compare this group of players to what Russia has today and it pales in comparison.

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10-17-2013, 02:59 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
No. Between 1990 and 1994 Russia had much more elite players than it does today.

Kamensky, Bykov, Khomutov, Fetisov, Makarov, Larionov, Kasatonov, Konstantinov, Malakhov, Zubov, Bure, Fedorov, Mogilny, Kozlov, Zhamnov, Kovalev, Yashin, Nikolishin, Tatarinov, Byakin, Gusarov, Kravchuk, Nemchinov, Zelepukin, Kvartalnov, Titov, Kovalenko, Yushkevich, Zhitnik, D.Mironov, B.Mironov, Karpovtsev, Shendelev, Semak, Lomakin, Leonov, Semenov, Shiryayev, Khristich, Gonchar, Khmylev, Kasparaitis, Berezin, Borschevsky, Ulanov, Trefilov, Shtalenkov, Khabibulin...

Compare this group of players to what Russia has today and it pales in comparison.
You should really sort these players into the appropriate tiers so it's even remotely possible to compare both the top(Those who actually fits on a team), and the depth of your program. A depth chart perhaps.

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10-17-2013, 03:54 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
You should really sort these players into the appropriate tiers so it's even remotely possible to compare both the top(Those who actually fits on a team), and the depth of your program. A depth chart perhaps.
Most it not all of the players on my list were NHL level players. There were a few players in that list who never tried in the NHL like Shiryayev and Shendelev but I think they were still NHL level.

I also forgot a few players from that 1990-1994 era like Selivanov and Korolev who were clearly NHL level players.

But I will make a new list of Russian players from that 1990-1994 era for four different teams: eight goalies, 32 defensemen and 48 forwards. I am 100% certain that this group of players are clearly better than a similar group of Russian players of 2009-2013 era.

So here we go.

Goalies: Nikolai Khabibulin, Andrei Trefilov, Mikhail Shtalenkov, Vladimir Myshkin, Alexei Maryin, Sergei Abramov, Andrei Zuyev, Oleg Bratash

Defensemen: Vyacheslav Fetisov, Alexei Kasatonov, Mikhail Tatarinov, Alexei Gusarov, Igor Kravchuk, Vladimir Konstantinov, Vladimir Malakhov, Sergei Zubov, Valeri Shiryayev, Ilya Byakin, Dimitri Mironov, Alexei Zhitnik, Boris Mironov, Dimitri Yushkevich, Alexander Karpovtsev, Oleg Mikulchuk, Anatoli Fedotov, Darius Kasparaitis, Alexander Smirnov, Sergei Shendelev, Sergei Bautin, Igor Ulanov, Sergei Sorokin, Yuri Kuznetsov, Alexander Yudin, Sergei Tertyshny, Valeri Nikulin, Evgeny Namestnikov, Vladimir Tyurikov, Dimitri Filimonov, Sergei Gonchar, Igor Ivanov

Forwards: Valeri Kamensky, Vyacheslav Bykov, Andrei Khomutov, Sergei Makarov, Igor Larionov, Pavel Bure, Alexander Mogilny, Sergei Fedorov, Dimitri Khristich, Vyacheslav Kozlov, Alexei Zhamnov, Alexei Kovalev, Alexei Yashin, Alexander Semak, Andrei Lomakin, Anatoli Semenov, Yuri Leonov, Sergei Nemchinov, Yuri Khmylev, Zaleri Zelepukin, German Titov, Dimitri Kvartalnov, Andrei Kovalenko, Vyacheslav Butsayev, Evgeny Davydov, Sergei Petrenko, Andrei Nikolishin, Alexander Selivanov, Alexander Barkov, Igor Korolev, Sergei Pryakhin, Vitali Prokhorov, Igor Boldin, Nikolai Borschevsky, Vitali Karamnov, Alexander Galchenyuk, Ravil Khaidarov, Evgeny Koreshkov, Alexander Koreshkov, Sergei Berezin, Valeri Karpov, Ravil Gusmanov, Alexei Kudashov, Viktor Gordiyuk, Alexander Prokopyev, Andrei Potaichuk, Oleg Petrov, Igor Maslennikov

I may have forgotten someone who should be on that list, but anyway. This list of players has much more top talent and depth than a similar list made of players from 2009-2013 era would have.

All of these players were developed in the Soviet Union which invested a lot more in junior hockey than Russia does today.

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10-17-2013, 04:10 PM
  #55
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Peter, the whole reason i posted was becouse of the need for a direct comparison, not just for you to repeat what you allready wrote in your last post.

I dont know about other peoples agendas, but mine was that Team Russia in a best-on-best tournament today is equally good as one in the early nineties, and that the possible talent loss when it comes to depth will be nicely bridged by older players now that Russia is on her feets again.


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10-17-2013, 05:02 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
You are unfortunately talking to a swede and we have just went through your predicted so called talent slump. We where worthless in the WJC for almost a decade until about 2007-2008 or something. Now we are producing talents again and the generation of Sedin and Zetterberg are still there to bridge the gap. Sure, we managed to scrap some top players out of our slump like Eriksson and Edler, but so do you with Yakupov and more. I would bet your such players are actually better than ours.
Yakupov is already beyond the slump. The fact you mention him tells a lot. You wouldn't name any players outside maybe Tarasenko and Kuznetsov in the generation between the last spree from the soviet era and the guys starting around 1993 birth year. Maybe we can bridge the gap too by letting Mr.Magicman play until the age of 45. Maybe.

What I see on the swedish side you don't seem to produce very bright offensive players. They're good to great, but no elite superstars. The swedish D is arguably going to dominate the next 10 years or so. Yes, I'm calling them better than Canadians, not by a mile, but significantly.

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10-17-2013, 05:26 PM
  #57
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The avergae foreign player cannot be equal to the average Russian player by default. They always get signed to fill the top lines. It's not like the NHL, where the foreigners are given time to develop, if a foreigner doesn't produce well in a Russian club he gets fired without a second thought.
That's because there is import restrictions, if one is not producing he is using up a valuable spot in which can be produced by someone more effective.. If import rules were not there, then what I said would hold true, its economic market price efficiency.

Medvescak is perfect example of this. Vesce, Ellison, others can be good players in the KHL, but may not be good enough to fit in top 5 spots on a good team. So what ends up happening is a player worthy of the KHL is chased from the league - market inefficiency. Get rid of import rules and teams will fill up with more foreigners and not care about player not being Russian... Unless they don't care about winning.

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10-17-2013, 08:40 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Atas2000 View Post
They are selling out seats pretty quick, so what's the problem with that?
Dude, you are waaay too defensive and paranoid about everything. No way that was an insult of any sorts to any party involved in that paragraph, but again you just assume bad faith by everyone. I just used that as example, that government of even the highest level still values hockey highly and invests in it.

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10-18-2013, 06:23 PM
  #59
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Dude, you are waaay too defensive and paranoid about everything. No way that was an insult of any sorts to any party involved in that paragraph, but again you just assume bad faith by everyone. I just used that as example, that government of even the highest level still values hockey highly and invests in it.
What's so strange about a russian fan taking the intersts of russian hockey seriosly? And I also have no reason to be paranoid. I see a lot of paranoia caused by the expansion of the KHL in fact. As for your post I only wanted to point out that the idea of inventing franchises in all the distant cities seems to work in that particular case, nothing else.

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10-18-2013, 08:50 PM
  #60
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What's so strange about a russian fan taking the intersts of russian hockey seriosly? And I also have no reason to be paranoid. I see a lot of paranoia caused by the expansion of the KHL in fact. As for your post I only wanted to point out that the idea of inventing franchises in all the distant cities seems to work in that particular case, nothing else.
I understand that fully. I'm just as passionate about my hockey interests, but your posts often seem to come from an angry place. It's hard to see a good faith in a post that ends asking whether I have problem with something. You expect that from a mugger on dark street on late evenings.

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10-18-2013, 09:11 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
You should really sort these players into the appropriate tiers so it's even remotely possible to compare both the top(Those who actually fits on a team), and the depth of your program. A depth chart perhaps.
It's not "his" program. He's a born and bred Finn, just one that's a Russophile.

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10-21-2013, 05:43 PM
  #62
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Here are the current scoring leaders of the KHL: http://en.khl.ru/stat/leaders/244/pts/

Foreigners are pretty much dominating the league right now even if the two leading scorers are Russian (Mozyakin and Zaripov).

Out of top 30 scorers only nine are Russian.

Out of those nine Russian only two (Burmistrov and Panarin) are under 25. The two best Russians Mozyakin and Zaripov are veteran players.


And here is the scoring list for defensemen: http://en.khl.ru/stat/leaders/244/pts_def/

Top ten scoring leaders among defensemen are all non-Russian. The best Russian Oleg Piganovich is 11th on the list. Another thing to notice is the lack of young Russian defensemen on that list except for Yegor Martynov, Yegor Antropov (both pleasant surprises this year) and Andrei Sergeyev. The top scoring Russian defensemen Piganovich, Kalinin, Belov, Koltsov and Nikulin are all veterans.

It has to mentioned though that some Russian players such as Alexander Radulov, Evgeny Kuznetsov and Nikita Zaitsev who would probably be pretty high on scoring charts have been injured.

Russia has managed decently in the U20 WJC but it has not been able to produce as many good players from these age groups as it should have. The current success of foreigners in the KHL is a testament for lack of good Russian players.

The level of play of the KHL is pretty much dependent on foreign players right now. And to think Tretyak wanted to reduce the foreigner limit for Russian teams to two players
I disagree that the scoring totals reflect a lack of good Russian players in the KHL. Foreign players are cherry-picked for their skills, while Russian players are relied on to fill out the bulk of the rosters of Russian teams. A snapshot of scoring stats early in the season is insufficient to make those kinds of generalizations.

Its likely that Russian talent will become much more plentiful in the next 4-5 years when the fruits of initiatives to expand junior hockey participation begin to yield results. Youth hockey has been greatly expanded, and the quality of leagues like the MHL are top-notch. The combination of numbers and quality will no doubt produce major results. Its actually scary to think how much talent could be produced if all resources were effectively drawn on.

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10-21-2013, 06:00 PM
  #63
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yes, it's both, that's why the Russian Championship is awarded as the league's Presidents Trophy equivalent. It's a national title in an international league; it's weird but a display of the transition. Thinking of the KHL as just a Russian national team development league is old world thinking. The KHL is going to be much more than a lowly national league in the splintered European landscape.

Just want to point out as well, imagine American NHL teams having a foreigner restriction in the interest of developing American players. The league would be diluted to hell and awful. It wouldn't be the elite pinnacle league it is today.
There isn't an official foreigner restriction in the NHL, but it exists de facto. Some officials, like former Oiler and Ranger GM Glen Sather, have come right out and said it: "If it was up to me, I'd prefer to have nothing but North Americans on the roster." Some Europeans are more favored than others in the NHL. Swedes and Finns are considered to be almost American, and fans can identify with them as good guys even though they are foreign. Czechs and Slovaks are considered to be less American and more foreign than Scandinavians, and Russians are stereotyped by movies and books as being the enemies of all that is decent about America. Generally, you don't see more than about 4 or 5 Europeans in an NHL lineup at any one time.

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10-21-2013, 06:05 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
There isn't an official foreigner restriction in the NHL, but it exists de facto. Some officials, like former Oiler and Ranger GM Glen Sather, have come right out and said it: "If it was up to me, I'd prefer to have nothing but North Americans on the roster." Some Europeans are more favored than others in the NHL. Swedes and Finns are considered to be almost American, and fans can identify with them as good guys even though they are foreign. Czechs and Slovaks are considered to be less American and more foreign than Scandinavians, and Russians are stereotyped by movies and books as being the enemies of all that is decent about America. Generally, you don't see more than about 4 or 5 Europeans in an NHL lineup at any one time.
There's no way Sather said that, he's big on bringing in euro players

traded bryan leech for a finn and a russian, traded for jagr, traded for sykora, got gaborik, drafted lunqvist, got rozival, kovalev, etc.

and theres a big difference between a foreigner cap and a gm who doesn't like foreigners. for every bryan burke you may have a steve smith(ov)

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10-21-2013, 06:07 PM
  #65
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And I don't think teams shy away from Russian players because they think the players are"enemies of all that is decent about America", but moreso because russian players are often soft & selfish, plus there's the language barrier

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10-21-2013, 06:25 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
There isn't an official foreigner restriction in the NHL, but it exists de facto. Some officials, like former Oiler and Ranger GM Glen Sather, have come right out and said it: "If it was up to me, I'd prefer to have nothing but North Americans on the roster." Some Europeans are more favored than others in the NHL. Swedes and Finns are considered to be almost American, and fans can identify with them as good guys even though they are foreign. Czechs and Slovaks are considered to be less American and more foreign than Scandinavians, and Russians are stereotyped by movies and books as being the enemies of all that is decent about America. Generally, you don't see more than about 4 or 5 Europeans in an NHL lineup at any one time.
That's laughable. In this day and age no GM in the NHL would even fathom to say that. That stereotype does not exist stop admiring Russian Hockey players like they're gods. Russian Hockey in terms of depth players is not favored in the NHL unlike most other Euro countries because most of the tier 2 players or non elite offensive players are not able to play the NHL way/Canadian way. Some of these players still have the mentality of the 50's still where they think Hockey is played with only skill. These second tier players bring nothing else to the table where aggression and ruthlessness take charge and the war mentality is often too much to handle for players not skilled enough to earn ice time on the top 2 lines. Does that mean they're not good players? No, not at all, they just don't fit in the team mentality that it takes to win a Stanley Cup. That's why some of these guys succeed in the KHL game where the pace is slower and staying back is the norm of the game and players in the NHL playing those roles would fail miserably in their position. But also I mean mentality wise, just look at defensemen across the world, every country is constantly producing quality dmen after dmen, yet one country remains in the backburner ...Russia. Why is that, their methods still haven't changed to this day on producing rushing defensemen, maybe it's time to get some facts straight moy drug!!!


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10-21-2013, 08:05 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
There isn't an official foreigner restriction in the NHL, but it exists de facto. Some officials, like former Oiler and Ranger GM Glen Sather, have come right out and said it: "If it was up to me, I'd prefer to have nothing but North Americans on the roster." Some Europeans are more favored than others in the NHL. Swedes and Finns are considered to be almost American, and fans can identify with them as good guys even though they are foreign. Czechs and Slovaks are considered to be less American and more foreign than Scandinavians, and Russians are stereotyped by movies and books as being the enemies of all that is decent about America. Generally, you don't see more than about 4 or 5 Europeans in an NHL lineup at any one time.
Source/Link? I have no recollection of that happening due to his history of good results with Europeans.

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10-21-2013, 11:20 PM
  #68
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And I don't think teams shy away from Russian players because they think the players are"enemies of all that is decent about America", but moreso because russian players are often soft & selfish, plus there's the language barrier
See. This kind of childish BS you can even fint it here. You do know there is such science as biology. It's impossible to ppl of one nation to be "often selfish or soft". Ppl are all different. Prejudice at it's best.

while you are at it give a list of selfish and sot russian players.

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10-21-2013, 11:40 PM
  #69
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See. This kind of childish BS you can even fint it here. You do know there is such science as biology. It's impossible to ppl of one nation to be "often selfish or soft". Ppl are all different. Prejudice at it's best.

while you are at it give a list of selfish and sot russian players.
Did I say Russians were Untermenschen or something? No? So where are you coming up with this biology nonsense?

This is not about Russian people but about products of the Russian style of game. You have players who are developed on the big ices with emphasis on skill and not on aggressive or defensive play; they aren't used to the small ice and high contact and are by comparison soft. On the other end, due in part to being highly drafted and pampered, and due in part to the language barrier they isolate themselves from the team. From all of these factors combined, you end up having a player who can be a puck hog, and not a team player, who is self entitled.

This of course is a generalization but does account for a lot of prospects if not in whole at least in part, and is part of why Russian players are drafted less these days. Not everyone is a perfect combo like a Karpotsev or a Kabanov, but the stigma is there from enough bad eggs over the years.

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10-22-2013, 05:22 AM
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Considering the cold war stuff in the NHL above, i think we should be aware that this is not 1989, although some might not really like Putin and some actually even being old enough for the Cold War to be a factor. I do however realise that there is also some considerable cultural differences between north americans and russians as groups, something that could perhaps make singular fans preferring north americans on their rosters more than they do russians, just like many canadian fans prefers canadian players and american fans preferring americans. North Americans do however feel quite at ease with eachother if not in a game against eachothers in the Olympics. They probably feel that if they can not win the gold they hope the other one does, not the least against perhaps Russia. I know i rather see Finland win the gold than i do the Czech Republic, although that love-hate affair does it that much more important to beat Finland when we do in fact meet head to head.

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10-22-2013, 10:23 AM
  #71
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Source/Link? I have no recollection of that happening due to his history of good results with Europeans.
I have it on a DVD from the 1981 Canada Cup (US vs. USSR) in a between periods interview. The game was played in Edmonton. He didn't say that he wouldn't draft Europeans, as Jari Kurri may have been on the roster in 1981. He was speaking from the perspective of the North American fan, and what does and does not constitute entertaining hockey in the fan's view. NA hockey, by his thinking, is rough, tough, manly and supremely entertaining. He was directly lamenting the pretty skating but no-hit style of European hockey. He called the European style boring. Whether he made accommodations in later years to the need to supplement the lack of domestic talent is beyond the point. If it didn't require losing, he would have much rather had a 100% NA lineup.

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10-22-2013, 10:53 AM
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Wait, so he called Gretzky boring when he was on the Oilers? Something doesn't add up here

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10-22-2013, 10:59 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
I have it on a DVD from the 1981 Canada Cup (US vs. USSR) in a between periods interview. The game was played in Edmonton. He didn't say that he wouldn't draft Europeans, as Jari Kurri may have been on the roster in 1981. He was speaking from the perspective of the North American fan, and what does and does not constitute entertaining hockey in the fan's view. NA hockey, by his thinking, is rough, tough, manly and supremely entertaining. He was directly lamenting the pretty skating but no-hit style of European hockey. He called the European style boring. Whether he made accommodations in later years to the need to supplement the lack of domestic talent is beyond the point. If it didn't require losing, he would have much rather had a 100% NA lineup.
That was like 32 years ago. His thinking has clearly changed since then.

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10-22-2013, 11:10 AM
  #74
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I don't think it's fair to say Russians are stereotyped as enemies of America and then use an alleged example from 1981 when the Cold War was in full swing and when Russians literally were the enemies of America.

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10-22-2013, 01:18 PM
  #75
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Wait, so he called Gretzky boring when he was on the Oilers? Something doesn't add up here
While his name might sound European, Wayne Gretzky is actually a Canadian.

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