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Old
10-15-2013, 12:42 PM
  #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
Who is more likely to score a goal in 16 minutes of time?

Miller and Kreider. Or Boyle and Pyatt.

2nd line minutes. Who's more likely? Please answer.
To me, Kreider is the most likely out of any of them with the other three being relatively equal. However, neither Kreider nor Miller are ready and I'd prefer them to play in the AHL. If we have roughly equivalent vets, I'd rather play the vets until the kids are ready. Why should we rush our top prospects?

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Old
10-15-2013, 12:42 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
AV said Miller could play his way into the top six...
Hopefully he earns it! I would have demoted a vet to the 4th line to really send a message and put Miller in his place but if AV is already open to the idea of moving him up before he plays I consider that a positive sign.

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10-15-2013, 12:43 PM
  #128
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so a winger is out so instead of calling up a filled out potential sniper (kreider) we call up a young kid who has yet to fill out and makes many mistakes when is on ice. good job slats!

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10-15-2013, 12:54 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by moore is new mac View Post
so a winger is out so instead of calling up a filled out potential sniper (kreider) we call up a young kid who has yet to fill out and makes many mistakes when is on ice. good job slats!
This whole team is guilty of making "many mistakes" right now! They are vets and pros, what's their excuse? Kreider makes just as many mistakes, at least Miller's come from having the puck on his stick and trying to make things happen as opposed to how engaged he looks out on the ice.

I would honestly have made this group of players work through it and not subject any kids to this volatile environment but if the choice is between Kreider or Miller I don't think you can say one is head and shoulders above the other right now in terms of not making mistakes and you will see posters on either side of the argument.

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10-15-2013, 01:36 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Gardner McKay View Post
Boyle had a 20 goal season. He is capable of scoring. Is he a 2nd line C? Absolutely not but between his face off abilities and stellar defensive play, he is absolutely a great option.

I think you are really over doing it on Boyle and if possible being to kind to Pyatt. He is the one who I would happily replace with any of the kids.
Nope, if you look at an earlier post I praise Boyle for his strengths: energy and grit.

I don't really praise Pyatt for anything.

Clearly say Boyle deserves a spot on this team. That spot lies on the 4th line.

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10-15-2013, 01:47 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
To me, Kreider is the most likely out of any of them with the other three being relatively equal. However, neither Kreider nor Miller are ready and I'd prefer them to play in the AHL. If we have roughly equivalent vets, I'd rather play the vets until the kids are ready. Why should we rush our top prospects?
Kreider is ready. He lit up the AHL last year. Terrible line mates in preseason. It's also... preseason.

I'm not saying he deserves to be on a top 2 line (in general) but he definitely deserves it over Boyle and Pyatt.

Boyle and Kreider are different players. You can't compare them. What you should be comparing is their role on the team. Top 2 lines means goal production. Boyle should not be relied on for goal production. He's a grit player. Forechecker. Energy. That's positive... for the 4th line. Kreider isn't an energy player. He's finesse. Speed.

I think people mistake expectations for how ready Kreider is. Kreider isn't a sniper. He's not going to come in, dangle 4 guys, deke the goalie out of his jock strap, do a triple axel, and then shelve the puck while using the butt end of his stick. He's a scoring threat. I've always viewed him as a solid 2nd line winger. He's not consistent enough to be on the 1st line but his talent and speed will always generate opportunities and a decent amount of results. He'll score big goals, and on occasion he'll score flashy goals. His shot doesn't have pin point accuracy, he doesn't rely on flashy stick handling to get past defenders. He's north south. He'll shoot but that doesn't guarantee it'll be on the net. Point is he'll shoot. He generated a lot of point production in AHL. That's a good sign that he's ready. Now if your expectations of how Kreider should play and how he really plays don't align that's different. But let's not go mistaking that for if he needs more development or not. I feel like playing in the AHL more and he'll master it. The point is not to master your minor league affiliate, it is to learn how to play with the big boys. He's learned in AHL, time for NHL... this is next part of development, not more AHL seasoning.

Same with Miller. Both need to come up and stick and play top 9 minutes. I pair them with Callahan on the 3rd line because they need a veteran who plays a similar north-south game to them and be defensively responsible for when they have rookie mistakes. But rookie mistakes are a part of it. People want the seasoning in place of the mistakes... it doesn't work like that. Mistakes happen naturally. Even vets make them.

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10-15-2013, 01:48 PM
  #132
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Boyle is as good a 4th line center as you could ask for.

He is probably the worst 2nd or 3rd line center you could ask for.

With Richards, Brassard, and Stepan, having Boyle would center any line but a 4th line is inexcusable

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10-15-2013, 01:51 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
Kreider is ready. He lit up the AHL last year.
23 points in 44 games is lighting it up? Oh and that -11.

I like Kreider. I still have hopes for Kreider, but he needs to be in the A right now. Make him break down the door, not have the Rangers push him through it.

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10-15-2013, 01:52 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
Who is more likely to be scored on?
4-1, 9-2, 6-0, 5-3....

Those are 4/5 of our games.

Who's more likely to be scored on? The results speak for themselves.

4/5 games north of 4 goals allowed (with conceivably the best goalie in the NHL). Boyle and Pyatt not really stopping the bleeding are they?

Additionally, we've scored 0,1,2,3 in those 4 games. Boyle and Pyatt not doing much to help the need for offense are they?

Finally, as I said in another post just now, we're talking about 2nd line roles. 2nd line = goal production. 3rd line + 4th line can be your defensively sound lines. Not 1st and 2nd. Boyle and Pyatt get 2nd line minutes. Therefore you should judge their results based on that role. They're failing. They can't put the puck in the net. Get them off that f ing line immediately.

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10-15-2013, 01:54 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
23 points in 44 games is lighting it up? Oh and that -11.

I like Kreider. I still have hopes for Kreider, but he needs to be in the A right now. Make him break down the door, not have the Rangers push him through it.
Didn't he start off the year slow, due to bone spurs that lingered, and then didn't he have something like 5 goals in 6 games before he was called up again?

Was he not also toyed around with mentally? I'm sure being called up and down and thrown to the wolves publicly by the head coach really did wonders for his confidence.

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10-15-2013, 01:56 PM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
4-1, 9-2, 6-0, 5-3....

Those are 4/5 of our games.

Who's more likely to be scored on? The results speak for themselves.

4/5 games north of 4 goals allowed (with conceivably the best goalie in the NHL). Boyle and Pyatt not really stopping the bleeding are they?

Additionally, we've scored 0,1,2,3 in those 4 games. Boyle and Pyatt not doing much to help the need for offense are they?

Finally, as I said in another post just now, we're talking about 2nd line roles. 2nd line = goal production. 3rd line + 4th line can be your defensively sound lines. Not 1st and 2nd. Boyle and Pyatt get 2nd line minutes. Therefore you should judge their results based on that role. They're failing. They can't put the puck in the net. Get them off that f ing line immediately.
Boyle is a -1. If anything, that shows he is good defensively as compared to everyone else.

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10-15-2013, 02:02 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
Didn't he start off the year slow, due to bone spurs that lingered, and then didn't he have something like 5 goals in 6 games before he was called up again?

Was he not also toyed around with mentally? I'm sure being called up and down and thrown to the wolves publicly by the head coach really did wonders for his confidence.
He certainly didn't do much with his clean slate. Let the guys tear up the A. Let him hone his game. Let him learn the game on the other side of the puck. Let him gain some swagger.

And again, I don't recall anyone ever saying that he's was lighting it up. I don't care about the excuses.

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10-15-2013, 02:07 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
Boyle is a -1. If anything, that shows he is good defensively as compared to everyone else.
Again. Can we compare him to the role he's given and if that he is successful at it?

You can't put the best custodian in the CEO position and then argue well he's a damn good cleaner, why is the company going to ****?

His role, as a 2nd line player, is primarily to put up goals on the score board - whether that be scoring them, creating chances that lead to offensive pressure, assisting, whatever.

How has he done in that role? What is his projection like if he were to continue in that role? Are you confident with him in that role moving forward?

You don't put someone in a position just because they have skills in a different area. You don't just give the marketing department responsibilities to the head of HR if the CMO leaves a company. People are good at a specific job and should be optimized by doing just that specific job. Boyle would be optimized on the 4th line. He's detrimental on the 2nd.

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10-15-2013, 02:08 PM
  #139
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I think it would be better for the team to demote/waive Boyle than keep playing him in his current role in the top 9 (with PP time). However, I think the best for the team would be for him to front the 4th line and kill penalties because he would excel there. The real problem is that I don't trust any coach to use him correctly because they see a giant forward that's had a 20 goal season and immediately think he's capable of more than he really is.

Good: Playing Boyle on the 4th line.
Bad: Getting rid of a player who is one of the best 4th liners in the league that can kill penalties and is well-liked by his teammates
The Ugly: Playing Brian Boyle 15 minutes a night on the 2nd line with time on the first PP unit.

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10-15-2013, 02:13 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
He certainly didn't do much with his clean slate. Let the guys tear up the A. Let him hone his game. Let him learn the game on the other side of the puck. Let him gain some swagger.

And again, I don't recall anyone ever saying that he's was lighting it up. I don't care about the excuses.
Did Richards or Nash grab their clean slate in the preseason? All offseason long AV preaching how Kreider and Richards are part of the team.

That entire line sucked in preseason. Richards and Nash looked lost. Kreider at least turned it up when moved to a different line. He's been effective in the AHL.

Gain swagger in AHL? How about put him in a position to succeed when he has a chance to play in the NHL?

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10-15-2013, 02:15 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
Did Richards or Nash grab their clean slate in the preseason? All offseason long AV preaching how Kreider and Richards are part of the team.
Richards and Nash have an established body of work. And, if you really want to get into it, Nash and Richards have two of the better player thus far this season.

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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
entire line sucked in preseason. Richards and Nash looked lost. Kreider at least turned it up when moved to a different line. He's been effective in the AHL.
Turned what up? I guess those two were holding him back.

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Gain swagger in AHL? How about put him in a position to succeed when he has a chance to play in the NHL?
Uh, because he's not ready to play in the NHL.

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10-15-2013, 02:19 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Gardner McKay View Post
I agree with Boyle 100%. The guy gets terrible amounts of flak for no reason and is a better option right now. Pyatt on the other hand...
He gets a terrible amount of flak because his coaches put him in roles he cannot handle. He is a team guy, a nice guy and a good faceoff man. That means he is a 4th line player. When people go nuts it's because they are pissed at the coaches for not seeing the obvious; Brian Boyle is a 4th liner; nothing more. The viitriol is misdirected at the player when it should be directed at the coach.

And then we argue because some people think he is better than I described.

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10-15-2013, 02:25 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Gardner McKay View Post
Boyle had a 20 goal season. He is capable of scoring. Is he a 2nd line C? Absolutely not but between his face off abilities and stellar defensive play, he is absolutely a great option.

I think you are really over doing it on Boyle and if possible being to kind to Pyatt. He is the one who I would happily replace with any of the kids.
Please don't bring up the 20 goal season; that is gas on the fire around here. Most of us agree he has zero offensive skill; why start that discussion again.

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10-15-2013, 02:34 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Richards and Nash have an established body of work. And, if you really want to get into it, Nash and Richards have two of the better player thus far this season.



Turned what up? I guess those two were holding him back.



Uh, because he's not ready to play in the NHL.
Well you're saying Kreider didn't "grab his clean slate" during the preseason, a time where Richards Nash and Kreider all struggled as part of the same line.

Richards and Nash turned it around. What's to say Kreider wouldn't have as well? He didn't get the chance.

You find out if a player is NHL ready when they play in the NHL, not the AHL . Looking dominant in the AHL is a good indication. Kreider has looked that. Next step is playing him in NHL. Maybe lighting it up was too generous on my part.

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10-15-2013, 02:44 PM
  #145
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So let me get this straight...its perfectly OK to be a flat out liability on ice as long as you're on the "2nd line" or higher?

Are you guys on crack?

An NHL coach is NOT going to put a player on the ice for 10+ minutes if they're a constant liability for a disasterous play. Like it or not, thats what Krieder is right now.

In the oppritunities that he's gotten thus far (with "crappy" linemates) his pass/fail criteria has never been points or offensive statistics. It's been his awerness and decision making at NHL game speed. Everyone one knows he can skate and shoot, he's evaluated to see if he can hold his own enough with all the subtle nuances of the game..and he's consistantly failed every single time.

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10-15-2013, 02:47 PM
  #146
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Vigneault was asked if he had been “pleased” with Miller’s response to the temporary demotion.

“I wasn’t pleased. That’s what I expected,” Vigneault said. “I expected him to go down – him and all the young players that we sent down – and work on their game and work on improving and getting better, and that’s what he did. He went there, he scored four goals, and we got some great scouting reports. (Assistant Rangers GM Jim Schoenfeld) was at the games. (Rangers assistant GM Jeff Gorton) was at two of the games. And the coaching staff over there said that he played real well.”

Vigneault also acknowledged that the Rangers could add a second player to their roster from the AHL following Wednesday’s game in Washington.

“After Washington we’re gonna reevaluate, see where we are, and see what we need to do. But for now we’re not going to,” he said.
http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/ran...d-martin-biron

The Rangers have 3 veteran players in the AHL. The Rangers have $591,667 on their cap from those players in the AHL. Subtract $925,000 from the cap hit. There's a veteran limit in the AHL. Powe and Asham take up 2 of those spots. Biron is exempt.

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What is the AHL's development rule?
In the AHL, player development is a top priority. The American Hockey League and the Professional Hockey Players' Association have the following development rule in place for the 2012-13 season:

Of the 18 skaters (not counting two goaltenders) that teams may dress for a regular-season game, at least 13 must be qualified as "development players." Of those 13, 12 must have played in 260 or fewer professional games (including AHL, NHL, IHL and European elite leagues), and one must have played in 320 or fewer professional games. All calculations for development status are based on regular-season totals as of the start of the season.
http://theahl.com/faq-p137653

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10-15-2013, 02:54 PM
  #147
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I don't understand why people
seem to think that Miller on the 4th line means he can't show something. Remember when Anisimov played on the 4th line with Shelley? He looked awesome and basically made it clear that he deserved to play with better players. Why don't we expect the same thing out of Miller instead of sitting here complaining that the players he'll be with suck?
Because it is easier to pretend that the delusions about the quality of a prospect or their 'NHL-readiness' are the reality than it is to accept that maybe, just maybe, these guys aren't the super stars they were expected to be or aren't quite ready yet.

And the people *****ing about putting these players on the 3rd and 4th line have not a clue/zero patience. You don't develop a prospect by gift wrapping 1st line minutes for them. It takes time. You give them plenty of experience in the AHL or euro leagues. Eventually, if they have proven themselves there, you call them up to the NHL. But you don't immediately throw them on the first line. Start them in a limited role on the 3rd or 4th line. This gives them experience as well as the breathing room to learn the game at this level -- they aren't asked to do too much and don't feel the pressure to light it up. If they show they deserve it, then and only then do you move them up the lineup. Sometimes they stick, sometimes they don't and get sent back down. Look at the teams that consistently develop great home grown talent. They do all of these things.

Rushing prospects before they are ready is how you ruin them. They don't learn basics, try to do too much, develop bad habits, get in their heads, etc.

Playing Miller on the 4th line is not the end of the world. If he proves himself, he'll be moved up. For ****s sake, MacKinnon, 1st overall pick, started the season on the 3rd line and has stayed there... getting 10-15 min per night. This guy has proved more in 5 games than either Kreider or Miller has so far and he's still only slotting in at Colorado's 3rd line. This is how you develop prospects. Give me a break with the hysterics.

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10-15-2013, 02:59 PM
  #148
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Because it is easier to pretend that the delusions about the quality of a prospect or their 'NHL-readiness' are the reality than it is to accept that maybe, just maybe, these guys aren't the super stars they were expected to be or aren't quite ready yet.

And the people *****ing about putting these players on the 3rd and 4th line have not a clue/zero patience. You don't develop a prospect by gift wrapping 1st line for them. It takes time. You give them plenty of experience in the AHL or euro leagues. Eventually, if they have proven themselves there, you call them up to the NHL. But you don't immediately throw them on the first line. Start them in a limited role on the 3rd or 4th line. This gives them experience as well as the breathing room to learn the game at this level -- they aren't asked to do too much and don't feel the pressure to light it up. If they show they deserve it, then and only then do you move them up the lineup. Sometimes they stick, sometimes they don't and get sent back down. Look at the teams that consistently develop great home grown talent. They do all of these things.

Rushing prospects before they are ready is how you ruin them. They don't learn basics, try to do too much, develop bad habits, get in their heads, etc.

Playing Miller on the 4th line is not the end of the world. If he proves himself, he'll be moved up. For ****s sake, MacKinnon, 1st overall pick, started the season on the 3rd line and has stayed there... getting 10-15 min per night. This guy has proved more in 5 games than either Kreider or Miller has so far and he's still only slotting in at Colorado's 3rd line. This is how you develop prospects. Give me a break with the hysterics.
Well put...Thats really all there is to say about that.

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10-15-2013, 03:26 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by Richter Scale View Post
Because it is easier to pretend that the delusions about the quality of a prospect or their 'NHL-readiness' are the reality than it is to accept that maybe, just maybe, these guys aren't the super stars they were expected to be or aren't quite ready yet.

And the people *****ing about putting these players on the 3rd and 4th line have not a clue/zero patience. You don't develop a prospect by gift wrapping 1st line minutes for them. It takes time. You give them plenty of experience in the AHL or euro leagues. Eventually, if they have proven themselves there, you call them up to the NHL. But you don't immediately throw them on the first line. Start them in a limited role on the 3rd or 4th line. This gives them experience as well as the breathing room to learn the game at this level -- they aren't asked to do too much and don't feel the pressure to light it up. If they show they deserve it, then and only then do you move them up the lineup. Sometimes they stick, sometimes they don't and get sent back down. Look at the teams that consistently develop great home grown talent. They do all of these things.

Rushing prospects before they are ready is how you ruin them. They don't learn basics, try to do too much, develop bad habits, get in their heads, etc.

Playing Miller on the 4th line is not the end of the world. If he proves himself, he'll be moved up. For ****s sake, MacKinnon, 1st overall pick, started the season on the 3rd line and has stayed there... getting 10-15 min per night. This guy has proved more in 5 games than either Kreider or Miller has so far and he's still only slotting in at Colorado's 3rd line. This is how you develop prospects. Give me a break with the hysterics.
Really don't agree with much of this. You can't have a blanket rule that treats all prospects the same.

For every player who might have been brought up before he was ready and disappoints, there is another, who some might have thought of as not yet ready, who thrives when put in a challenging situation where they can learn and grow. That disappointing player would likely have disappointed even when he was "ready."

Sometimes you have to push young players to succeed and put them in positions where they might have success.

I'm OK with Miller getting 4th line minutes but I'd be much happier if he were getting 3rd line minutes. If there was an opening, I won't even mind 2nd line minutes. 1st line minutes...probably not as I don't think that even at his best, years from now he will be able to play there consistently (maybe like Dubi, occasionally).

I'll say what I said earlier: if you want to develop young players at the NHL level they have to be free to know that a mistake or bad shift or bad game will not get them yanked and sent to the minors or to the pressbox. A young player of talent and ability will learn from their experience, internalize it, and add it to their mental toolbox.

It's a rare player who is "ruined" by getting some NHL time when they are young, especially with forwards. If you are talking about Dmen, you perhaps have a better argument.

We're not talking hysterics here, we're talking about different philosophies of player development. Each player is different. To paraphrase (I don't remember the exact quote) that eminent philosopher from Vulcan in a Star Trek movie when a barely ready crew is forced to become the primary crew on the Enterprise and he was asked how they will respond, he said something to the effect that "each according to his own gifts."

Only a movie I know but the basic tenet is the same. It's time, as our veteran players fall by the wayside from age or poor play, to push our young players.

Some will rise and some will fall (sound like a quote also, perhaps from a Grateful Dead song, probably Terrapin Station) but that's what makes it so fascinating.

Push'em!

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10-15-2013, 03:35 PM
  #150
SingnBluesOnBroadway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
Well you're saying Kreider didn't "grab his clean slate" during the preseason, a time where Richards Nash and Kreider all struggled as part of the same line.

Richards and Nash turned it around. What's to say Kreider wouldn't have as well? He didn't get the chance.
Nash and Richards have an established body of work. You seem to want to ignore that fact or you don't understand the difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
You find out if a player is NHL ready when they play in the NHL, not the AHL . Looking dominant in the AHL is a good indication. Kreider has looked that. Next step is playing him in NHL. Maybe lighting it up was too generous on my part.
I would argue that Keider has not been dominant.


Last edited by SingnBluesOnBroadway: 10-15-2013 at 03:53 PM.
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