HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Ottawa Senators
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie
Notices

CBC Olympic Power Rankings Spezza #21

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
10-24-2013, 11:31 AM
  #51
Smash88
Registered User
 
Smash88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 2,906
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondercarrot View Post
the narrative for Spezza was decided long ago.
it doesnt matter how it gets refuted, or how many giveaways other top centers make, how good he is on the draw or how much his two way game improved years ago.

Anytime he makes a pass that goes awry - it counts as every bad pass or play he's ever made.
This.

In the next game or so Spezza will have a giveaway that results in a scoring chance for the other team and there will be the "trade Spezza" "we will never win with Spezza" posts like usual.

Smash88 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-24-2013, 11:38 AM
  #52
Super Cake
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Country: United States
Posts: 22,773
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smash88 View Post
This.

In the next game or so Spezza will have a giveaway that results in a scoring chance for the other team and there will be the "trade Spezza" "we will never win with Spezza" posts like usual.
Its sad, but its true. This "trade spezza" bs should end though. He is currently leading the team in goals with ryan in second. Take spezza way from this team and you will see a dropoff in goals.


Last edited by Super Cake: 10-24-2013 at 11:44 AM.
Super Cake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-24-2013, 11:49 AM
  #53
Curtinho
Spero Meliora
 
Curtinho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,990
vCash: 500
Spezza will never get the appreciation that he deserves from the whole fanbase unless he carries the team on his back to a cup. I don't think people realize just how lucky we are to have arguably a top 10 player in the entire league when healthy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlssonnSchultz View Post
On another note, I love when people argue that G is better than Spezza, while it is sort of close, It's really not a tough decision at all to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlssonnSchultz View Post
True, I don't really factor that in who's better but I can see when it comes to value why people would feel that way. Spezz is just a better goal scorer, better defensively and a better controller of the game IMO.
People look at one of Giroux's seasons in which his whole team was scoring at a ridiculous pace and think that it defines Giroux as better than Spezza. Outside of one season Giroux has never even been close to as good as Spezza -- and that holds true. Giroux is not on Spezza's level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SensBruins4Ever View Post
I agree with you that people can forget all good things spezza does and only focus on the bad things.

I got to say though, 7 goals, 3 assists and 10 points in 9 games is not bad. I would want his assists to rise a little, but that entirely depends on his wingers.
Not to nitpick but Spezza has only played 8 games.

Curtinho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-24-2013, 11:52 AM
  #54
Super Cake
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Country: United States
Posts: 22,773
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
Spezza will never get the appreciation that he deserves from the whole fanbase unless he carries the team on his back to a cup. I don't think people realize just how lucky we are to have arguably a top 10 player in the entire league when healthy.





People look at one of Giroux's seasons in which his whole team was scoring at a ridiculous pace and think that it defines Giroux as better than Spezza. Outside of one season Giroux has never even been close to as good as Spezza -- and that holds true. Giroux is not on Spezza's level.



Not to nitpick but Spezza has only played 8 games.
Ya, i forgot about the game he missed. I still stand by what i said though. 7 goals, 3 assists and 10 points in 8 games is pretty good.

Super Cake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-24-2013, 12:09 PM
  #55
MiscBrah
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 3,004
vCash: 500
If the sens called the oilers and asked to trade Spezza for RNH the oilers would send more tulips to Ottawa than the Netherlands do.

On another note I'm perfectly happy with Spezza stepping up his goal scoring this year. I think with alfie gone we're going to see Spezza really come into his own. Maybe after another top 5 finish in points ppl will stop trying to trade him...

MiscBrah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-24-2013, 12:19 PM
  #56
BankStreetParade
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,043
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondercarrot View Post
the narrative for Spezza was decided long ago.
it doesnt matter how it gets refuted, or how many giveaways other top centers make, how good he is on the draw or how much his two way game improved years ago.

Anytime he makes a pass that goes awry - it counts as every bad pass or play he's ever made.
This is so true. So true.

Don't know how to embed this in to the post...

Just watch this video, watch Datsyuk just completely fall asleep on the play while Spezza cruises by to the rebound. Now imagine the reverse and it's Datsyuk cruising to the rebound past Spezza. Could you even begin to imagine the vitriol and hatred he'd get? All of the "he's lazy" "he sucks defensively" "we'll never win with him playing like that" "he's clearly not on the level of Datsyuk or other stars around the league" "blah blah blah..."? My God.

No body is ever thankful for what this guy brings to the table. All the fan base ever does is harp on all the negative. It's disgusting.

http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/con...13020137-321-h

BankStreetParade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-24-2013, 12:22 PM
  #57
Super Cake
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Country: United States
Posts: 22,773
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BankStreetParade View Post
This is so true. So true.

Don't know how to embed this in to the post...

Just watch this video, watch Datsyuk just completely fall asleep on the play while Spezza cruises by to the rebound. Now imagine the reverse and it's Datsyuk cruising to the rebound past Spezza. Could you even begin to imagine the vitriol and hatred he'd get? All of the "he's lazy" "he sucks defensively" "we'll never win with him playing like that" "he's clearly not on the level of Datsyuk or other stars around the league" "blah blah blah..."? My God.

No body is ever thankful for what this guy brings to the table. All the fan base ever does is harp on all the negative. It's disgusting.

http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/con...13020137-321-h
Spezza deserves some ****ing recognition for what he brings to the table.

Super Cake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-24-2013, 01:03 PM
  #58
dingbatz
Registered User
 
dingbatz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Country:
Posts: 3,090
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BankStreetParade View Post
This is so true. So true.

Don't know how to embed this in to the post...

Just watch this video, watch Datsyuk just completely fall asleep on the play while Spezza cruises by to the rebound. Now imagine the reverse and it's Datsyuk cruising to the rebound past Spezza. Could you even begin to imagine the vitriol and hatred he'd get? All of the "he's lazy" "he sucks defensively" "we'll never win with him playing like that" "he's clearly not on the level of Datsyuk or other stars around the league" "blah blah blah..."? My God.

No body is ever thankful for what this guy brings to the table. All the fan base ever does is harp on all the negative. It's disgusting.

http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/con...13020137-321-h
I think this will be the year that it turns around. Alfie was unfairly criticized prior to our cup run in 2007. I'm not saying it's right, but it just seems to take some time for the majority to come around to our marquee talent.

dingbatz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-24-2013, 01:14 PM
  #59
WhiteLight*
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 16,082
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by coladin View Post
Why would I lie?
I dunno, but I suspect it's not intentional. You're just not informed about RNH at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coladin View Post
I do not feel that in a game that truly matters that RNH can play in his own end like Spezza can.

Mandy, always so dramatic.
that's fine, it's your opinion Spezza is better (I disagree but that's fine).

All I'm saying is that ''RNH can't play in his own end'' is not a matter of opinion. Saying RNH is a 0/10 for defense is just wrong.

I'm done with this lol

WhiteLight* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-24-2013, 02:13 PM
  #60
coladin
Registered User
 
coladin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,565
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
I dunno, but I suspect it's not intentional. You're just not informed about RNH at all.



that's fine, it's your opinion Spezza is better (I disagree but that's fine).

All I'm saying is that ''RNH can't play in his own end'' is not a matter of opinion. Saying RNH is a 0/10 for defense is just wrong.

I'm done with this lol
0/10 eh? If it makes you feel any better, someone "who cannot play in his own end", would probably be a 5/10. Pretty close to fail. Where did I write that he is a 0/10 , hmm? I contend compared to Spezza, he cannot play in his own end, and that is precisely my opinion...as horrifying as that obviously sounds to you. Judging from some others here, and Lars Eller maybe, not as outlandish and crazy as you may think it is.

Don't put words in my mouth, but you can't help yourself.

lol...and you are not done with this!

coladin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-24-2013, 02:17 PM
  #61
swiftwin
#lalala
 
swiftwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,063
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondercarrot View Post
the narrative for Spezza was decided long ago.
it doesnt matter how it gets refuted, or how many giveaways other top centers make, how good he is on the draw or how much his two way game improved years ago.

Anytime he makes a pass that goes awry - it counts as every bad pass or play he's ever made.
We need Spezza to score some epic series winning goal for that **** to stop.

Everybody *****ed about Alfie, and there were rumors of him getting traded for Craig Conroy until the '07 cup run.

Until that '07 cup run, he was the soft euro who always choked and had no leadership ability.

swiftwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-24-2013, 02:23 PM
  #62
Magix
Registered User
 
Magix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,511
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftwin View Post
We need Spezza to score some epic series winning goal for that **** to stop.

Everybody *****ed about Alfie, and there were rumors of him getting traded for Craig Conroy until the '07 cup run.

Until that '07 cup run, he was the soft euro who always choked and had no leadership ability.
Pretty much. Bet you there will still be giroux > spezza or rnh > spezza posts.

Shiny new toy syndrome too strong around here.

Magix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-24-2013, 02:24 PM
  #63
coladin
Registered User
 
coladin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,565
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftwin View Post
We need Spezza to score some epic series winning goal for that **** to stop.

Everybody *****ed about Alfie, and there were rumors of him getting traded for Craig Conroy until the '07 cup run.

Until that '07 cup run, he was the soft euro who always choked and had no leadership ability.
I always doubted Alfie's leadership ability and I can't tell you how many players, just Todd White as recently as yesterday, to say the usual lead by example BS. I prefer the more vocal leader, which many say regardless of Alfie's captaincy, Spezza was a guy who always spoke in the room.

Love Alfie and everything that he has done, but Spezza finally gets to show his true leadership capabilities now.

coladin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-24-2013, 02:25 PM
  #64
PoutineSp00nZ
Beat that $%^& Bryan
 
PoutineSp00nZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,305
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondercarrot View Post
the narrative for Spezza was decided long ago.
it doesnt matter how it gets refuted, or how many giveaways other top centers make, how good he is on the draw or how much his two way game improved years ago.

Anytime he makes a pass that goes awry - it counts as every bad pass or play he's ever made.
Nails it.

PoutineSp00nZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-24-2013, 02:27 PM
  #65
coladin
Registered User
 
coladin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,565
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by magix View Post
Pretty much. Bet you there will still be giroux > spezza or rnh > spezza posts.

Shiny new toy syndrome too strong around here.
Giroux and RNH are top notch players, for sure, but there is still something to be said about guys like Spezza, Thornton, older very productive centers that can do a whole lot more than just score. RNH is 20. 20. The Oil are a one dimensional team with major defensive lapses based on the players they have been selecting, a lousy make up of a team. They should have drafted Adam Larsson, they should address their needs rather than getting the "best player in the draft" nonsense, but that is something for another day.

coladin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-24-2013, 02:33 PM
  #66
Magix
Registered User
 
Magix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,511
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by coladin View Post
Giroux and RNH are top notch players, for sure, but there is still something to be said about guys like Spezza, Thornton, older very productive centers that can do a whole lot more than just score. RNH is 20. 20. The Oil are a one dimensional team with major defensive lapses based on the players they have been selecting, a lousy make up of a team. They should have drafted Adam Larsson, they should address their needs rather than getting the "best player in the draft" nonsense, but that is something for another day.
A young spezza or thronton would be going #1 in every draft from the past decade, excluding ovy, sid and stammer's drafts. They are a dying breed, guys who may not be superstars (just a tier below) but insanely gifted offensive players that can carry a line regardless of their teammates.

Out of recently drafted players, Tavares is getting there imo.

Magix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-24-2013, 02:35 PM
  #67
PoutineSp00nZ
Beat that $%^& Bryan
 
PoutineSp00nZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,305
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by coladin View Post
Giroux and RNH are top notch players, for sure, but there is still something to be said about guys like Spezza, Thornton, older very productive centers that can do a whole lot more than just score. RNH is 20. 20. The Oil are a one dimensional team with major defensive lapses based on the players they have been selecting, a lousy make up of a team. They should have drafted Adam Larsson, they should address their needs rather than getting the "best player in the draft" nonsense, but that is something for another day.
I don't lik RNH because he has one of those lame hyphenated names.

Pick a ****ing name, one name and ****ing stick with it.

I can't wait till he marries someone else with a hyphenated name, then his kid will be Ryan Smith-O'Neil-Nugent-Hopkins Junior

PoutineSp00nZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-24-2013, 02:35 PM
  #68
Curtinho
Spero Meliora
 
Curtinho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,990
vCash: 500
Spezza has shown more leadership qualities IMO in his time here than Alfredsson ever did. I'm with Coladin in the whole 'lead by example' stuff. Alfie did a lot of questionable things as captain of this franchise -- and even though he was thought of as a God here I never truly understood why.

He was a great player though and he did do a lot for the community.

Curtinho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-24-2013, 03:36 PM
  #69
arglebargle
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,857
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by blankout View Post
I think this will be the year that it turns around. Alfie was unfairly criticized prior to our cup run in 2007. I'm not saying it's right, but it just seems to take some time for the majority to come around to our marquee talent.
Pssst! Spezza had as many points as Alfie did in that playoff run, and was a +5 to Alfie's +4 despite getting no time on the PK.

Spezza and Thornton both use their big bodies pretty effectively. They both frequently shield opponents from the puck and bounce off hits. Neither of them make big hits on opponents because it leads to more frequent injuries and big hits generally take both players out of the play, which is not something you want to do with your best players all that often. It baffles me that people will criticize Spezza and insist he's not going to hold up due to health reasons, and then later criticize him for not playing like Jordin Tootoo without the puck.

The "lack of effort" thing is a criticism a lot of big tall centres get. Tall people generally can't move their legs as fast as short people, so they rely on longer, more powerful strides to go fast. If you put Spezza/Thornton/whoever next to St. Louis and have them skate the same speed, St. Louis will look like he's working way harder, because he's moving his legs faster to get everything he can out of his short legs.


Last edited by arglebargle: 10-24-2013 at 03:42 PM.
arglebargle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-24-2013, 03:39 PM
  #70
NyQuil
Neon NyQuil
 
NyQuil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 55,702
vCash: 500
The knock against Spezza in 2007 was his performance in the finals.

Up to that point, he played incredibly well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arglebargle
Tall people generally can't move their legs as fast as short people, so they rely on longer, more powerful strides to go fast. If you put Spezza/Thornton/whoever next to St. Louis and have them skate the same speed, St. Louis will look like he's working way harder, because he's moving his legs faster to get everything he can out of his short legs.
This is what makes Buddy Robinson so interesting to watch.

He moves his feet and he's tall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftwin
Everybody *****ed about Alfie, and there were rumors of him getting traded for Craig Conroy until the '07 cup run.
Yeah, not everybody.

I was always a big fan of Alfredsson and I thought the idea of trading him was ludicrous at the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cujomi
Alfie did a lot of questionable things as captain of this franchise -- and even though he was thought of as a God here I never truly understood why.
He did some pretty incredible things. And it's not just the big numbers, it's the little things too.

He came back early from injury in 2006 from cracked ribs thanks to Chara's slapshot wearing special padding because the team was doing poorly, and racked up 4 points in a 7-2 win against Phoenix.

He scores while the entire crowd is chanting his name in the 2007 playoffs, and later scores the goal that puts the team into the first franchise Stanley Cup final with an OT marker against the rival Sabres (a year after the infamous Pominville goal). In that finals, he responds to an Anaheim goal with an immediate short-handed marker on Ryan Getzlaf.

Last minute heroics in the 2013 playoffs?

Like all players, he's had his share of ups and downs. But I'm not going to re-evaluate his contribution to this team over the years even if I disagree vehemently with how he left it.

I think Chris Drury summed up his play best with this simple quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Drury
"In the first period, Alfredsson gets one of his three breakaways. Biron makes the save. The puck goes in the corner. Alfredsson goes and hits a guy, then he's the first guy back into the other end, and he hits our guy below the goal line -- all in 14 seconds. If I had that clip on tape, I'd show it a hundred times to my team."


Last edited by NyQuil: 10-24-2013 at 03:52 PM.
NyQuil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-24-2013, 03:52 PM
  #71
aragorn
YES WE CAN
 
aragorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Country: Azores
Posts: 16,038
vCash: 500
I **** on Spezza all the time, I hate his give aways & how slow he is to get back on defence, how slow he is to get off the ice, that he is a perimeter player & for a big guy how soft he is. But I don't think he should be traded, far from it. I realize he helps the team to win & the Sens are better with him. I JUST WANT HIM TO MANAGE THE PUCK BETTER, IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK OF A $7 MILLION DOLLAR 8 YEAR VETERAN? Shouldn't he know better by now? Does he not have a very good hockey IQ? Where is this great vision of his when he gives the puck away with those stupid blind behind the back passes? Can't he see the defence is on to him? When he is the last guy with the puck why does he have to make such a difficult pass when a safe pass works fine & dosen't give the other team a break away. Is he stupid? Shouldn't he care more about the team than looking fancy on TV?

aragorn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-24-2013, 03:58 PM
  #72
NyQuil
Neon NyQuil
 
NyQuil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 55,702
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by aragorn View Post
I **** on Spezza all the time, I hate his give aways & how slow he is to get back on defence, how slow he is to get off the ice, that he is a perimeter player & for a big guy how soft he is. But I don't think he should be traded, far from it. I realize he helps the team to win & the Sens are better with him. I JUST WANT HIM TO MANAGE THE PUCK BETTER, IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK OF A $7 MILLION DOLLAR 8 YEAR VETERAN? Shouldn't he know better by now? Does he not have a very good hockey IQ? Where is this great vision of his when he gives the puck away with those stupid blind behind the back passes? Can't he see the defence is on to him? When he is the last guy with the puck why does he have to make such a difficult pass when a safe pass works fine & dosen't give the other team a break away. Is he stupid? Shouldn't he care more about the team than looking fancy on TV?
I didn't see too many dangerous plays last night.

Let's see how he does with a full season as the Captain.

I for one, thinks he takes his responsibilities more seriously.

It won't happen overnight, but it will happen I think.

NyQuil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-24-2013, 04:00 PM
  #73
Wondercarrot
Casual Thor
 
Wondercarrot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,470
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by aragorn View Post
I **** on Spezza all the time, I hate his give aways & how slow he is to get back on defence, how slow he is to get off the ice, that he is a perimeter player & for a big guy how soft he is. But I don't think he should be traded, far from it. I realize he helps the team to win & the Sens are better with him. I JUST WANT HIM TO MANAGE THE PUCK BETTER, IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK OF A $7 MILLION DOLLAR 8 YEAR VETERAN? Shouldn't he know better by now? Does he not have a very good hockey IQ? Where is this great vision of his when he gives the puck away with those stupid blind behind the back passes? Can't he see the defence is on to him? When he is the last guy with the puck why does he have to make such a difficult pass when a safe pass works fine & dosen't give the other team a break away. Is he stupid? Shouldn't he care more about the team than looking fancy on TV?
I believe that this ^ is exactly why i wrote this (to quote myself):

Quote:
the narrative for Spezza was decided long ago.
it doesnt matter how it gets refuted, or how many giveaways other top centers make, how good he is on the draw or how much his two way game improved years ago.

Anytime he makes a pass that goes awry - it counts as every bad pass or play he's ever made.

Wondercarrot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-24-2013, 04:12 PM
  #74
booger
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Oakville
Country: Canada
Posts: 352
vCash: 500
There are only a couple of posters here that want to trade Spezza (you know who you are). I for one will not ever entertain that thought. He retires a Sen, hopefully.

Try finding a hawks fan that wants to trade Toews. asinine!

booger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-24-2013, 04:15 PM
  #75
arglebargle
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,857
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by aragorn View Post
I JUST WANT HIM TO MANAGE THE PUCK BETTER, IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK OF A $7 MILLION DOLLAR 8 YEAR VETERAN? Shouldn't he know better by now? Does he not have a very good hockey IQ? Where is this great vision of his when he gives the puck away with those stupid blind behind the back passes? Can't he see the defence is on to him? When he is the last guy with the puck why does he have to make such a difficult pass when a safe pass works fine & dosen't give the other team a break away. Is he stupid? Shouldn't he care more about the team than looking fancy on TV?
Do you think Crosby, Malkin and Thornton don't give the puck away like that a lot? Have you ever looked at giveaway stats before? If you look at players with the highest number of giveaways it's like a who's who of the best centres and offensive defencemen in the league. Even Datsyuk is way up there in some years. Giveaways are a natural byproduct of trying to make plays in the offensive zone.

The other reason it's dumb to complain about giveaways is that you assume that it's always the fault of the player who last touched the puck. What if a player has 3 guys trying to check him in the corner and he throws the puck into the slot, but no one's there? What sort of strategy involves not having someone in the slot when there are only 2 guys left to cover the remaining 4 players? The problem with the play is that no one went to the slot/front of the net, not that the puck was passed there.

arglebargle is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:42 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. @2017 All Rights Reserved.