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How Many Players Now Regret the Tortorella Firing?

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Old
12-23-2013, 11:31 AM
  #576
Ail
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
I think it's nice to dream that that would be the case, but I just don't see it. Torts held the players accountable and they got him fired. Had he not been fired, I can't for a second begin to think that they would suddenly ramp the compete level back up for a new season under a guy they were sick of.
Yup. As much as AV isn't doing much for this pathetic roster, I think it is silly to assume that Torts would have had them whipped in to shape. He certainly couldn't be doing much worse however.

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12-23-2013, 11:32 AM
  #577
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Originally Posted by NickyFotiu View Post
You have a selective memory or you do not read all the articles.
One can make the same argument for you.
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More success than anyone since Francis? Are you Torts?
Yes to the former. No to the latter.
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His record was almost identical to Tom Renney. You may have missed the Cup in 1994 and the Finals in 1979.
How many times were Renneys teams one of the final 8? How many times did a Renney team make it to the ECF?

How many times were Renneys teams as hard to play against?
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Girardi was a solid dman before Torts was here. People knew that guys like Cally and Girardi were due for a decline be it due to injuries or age.
Girardi was hardly what all would consider solid. I recall threads which called him over rated.

Odd that at such ages they already seem to decline.
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McD is playing better than ever.
Disagree.
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The team was not a hard working team last season.
Again, disagree. They worked their rears off to make the playoffs and make the second round.

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12-23-2013, 11:32 AM
  #578
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Yahoo Sports, March 18th 2013

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Most alarming of all, they too often play without energy, without passion, without desperation, despite the situation.

The Rangers were a force to be reckoned with in the 2012 playoffs, but the magic is gone. (Getty)
Where is the team that won by outworking everyone else, by being a pain to play against? Where is the team that was as tough mentally as it was physically? Where is the identity the Rangers have spent years developing?

“I don’t know why we’re not playing the same way we did last year,” said defenseman Dan Girardi. “We’re just not playing like ourselves.”
The team tuned Torts out for most of his last season here. He reached his expiration date.

Anyway, I think all this debate is moot. Torts might have had marginally better success with this roster, but he's not taking this roster to the finals. The organization isn't where it is because of poor coaching.

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Old
12-23-2013, 11:36 AM
  #579
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
One can make the same argument for you.

Yes to the former. No to the latter.

How many times were Renneys teams one of the final 8? How many times did a Renney team make it to the ECF?

How many times were Renneys teams as hard to play against?

Girardi was hardly what all would consider solid. I recall threads which called him over rated.

Odd that at such ages they already seem to decline.

Disagree.

Again, disagree. They worked their rears off to make the playoffs and make the second round.
I think we will probably have to agree to disagree on most things but I will ask a few more questions.

1. What was Renneys playoff win/loss record? What was Torts?

2. If we were such a hard working team last season why was this board saying we should tank? Why were we not in the playoff seedings until the last 14 games (After Zooks, Brass, Clowe were brought in to save the season)?

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12-23-2013, 11:37 AM
  #580
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
I get where you are seeing this from. But I tend to believe that they would have exhibited the standard compete level that they have shown under him. Unfortunately, we do not get the chance to find out who would have been right.
Fair enough, but I contend that the compete level we all loved in the 11-12 season had already taken a significant hit last year.

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12-23-2013, 11:45 AM
  #581
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To the title of this thread: I think Lundqvist is the one player who should be most sorry that Tortorella was fired. He has lost the most in the way of support and his stats are telling the tale. He has a lot of work to do, along with the defense, to adjust to the new system.

Oddly, I've read here and other places that he was one of the most instrumental voices in having Tortorella removed. Cave Quid Optes. Be careful what you wish for. You may get it.

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12-23-2013, 11:45 AM
  #582
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The compete level took a dip last year with loss of players like Dubi, Prust, and Feds, who were never adequately replaced. But it's gotten even worse this year. The mental toughness is shot - they are last in the league when trailing first and wilt at the slightest sign of adversity.

It's obvious the players are a major part of the problem. They complain about the coach being too tough on them and that they are working too hard, and then proceed to play without any intensity and little effort when the coach is replaced. Sather should have told these players to **** off.

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Old
12-23-2013, 11:52 AM
  #583
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Fair enough, but I contend that the compete level we all loved in the 11-12 season had already taken a significant hit last year.
Agreed.

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Old
12-24-2013, 08:02 AM
  #584
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Fair enough, but I contend that the compete level we all loved in the 11-12 season had already taken a significant hit last year.
Also fair enough. But the team from 11-12 had its core ripped out. Couple that with a lack of training camp, and you get what you get. Or got. And while the compete level was already lower, it was still miles ahead of where this year is.

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12-24-2013, 07:13 PM
  #585
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
Also fair enough. But the team from 11-12 had its core ripped out. Couple that with a lack of training camp, and you get what you get. Or got. And while the compete level was already lower, it was still miles ahead of where this year is.
See, I completely disagree with that last sentence. The Rangers spent the first half, maybe even 2/3 of last season withdrawn into a turtle shell. That's not any better of a compete level than now. And it wasn't any more effective, in terms of a W/L record.

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12-27-2013, 01:33 PM
  #586
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
See, I completely disagree with that last sentence. The Rangers spent the first half, maybe even 2/3 of last season withdrawn into a turtle shell. That's not any better of a compete level than now. And it wasn't any more effective, in terms of a W/L record.
That is fine. Your opinion on this is valid. However, I see things a little different. But you cannot make an apples to apples comparison. This years' team had a full training camp and returned much of the same team as last year. Last year's team hardly had anything that resembled a camp and returned a different core.

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Old
12-27-2013, 02:06 PM
  #587
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Something tells me if Torts were here, our record would be about the same and he'd be on the hot seat anyway.

The difference is that we made the change in the offseason as opposed to half way through the season.

The bottom line is that this team has too many scoring questions marks, not enough grit and doesn't have Henrik Lundqvist playing like Henrik Lundqvist.

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12-27-2013, 02:29 PM
  #588
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Something tells me if Torts were here, our record would be about the same and he'd be on the hot seat anyway.

The difference is that we made the change in the offseason as opposed to half way through the season.

The bottom line is that this team has too many scoring questions marks, not enough grit and doesn't have Henrik Lundqvist playing like Henrik Lundqvist.
Winner winner chicken dinner. You nailed it.

At least this season we can have fun watching McD play powerplay, Kreider play at all, and have some rushes that are not just banging the puck off the boards.

Oh and watch Zooks kill penalties.

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Old
12-28-2013, 12:01 AM
  #589
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It's also worth pointing out that this team has essentially lost two of its potential core defenseman the last couple of years with regard to Sauer and Staal (aka their first two picks in 2007, which says nothing about losing a 2008 pick).

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12-28-2013, 12:24 AM
  #590
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I don't know if anybody reads the NHL power rankings (I often skim them) but I noticed this week's blurb about the Canucks seemed to more or less bash Torts and take some heat off of AV. I thought it was an interesting take:

Quote:
There seems to be a narrative building that John Tortorella has ignited something in the Canucks while Alain Vigneault is struggling to do the same with the Rangers. There also seems to be some fuzzy memories of recent history, because the Canucks have consistently been a top-flight team for the past four seasons. From 2009-10 to 2012-13, Vancouver won 180 games, second only to the Penguins in that span, while the Rangers were consistently middle of the pack with the exception being a sizzling stretch in 2011-12. That season ended with the Rangers going 16-16 against the Nos. 6, 7 and 8 seeds in the Eastern Conference.

Sure, some of Vancouver's depth from the 2011 Stanley Cup runner-up team has eroded, and Tortorella likely deserves some credit for the team's recent surge, but the Canucks are much closer to being a wild card in the West than winning the Pacific at this point.
Link: http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=6...d=nhl:topheads

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Old
12-28-2013, 12:47 AM
  #591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Yahoo Sports, March 18th 2013



The team tuned Torts out for most of his last season here. He reached his expiration date.

Anyway, I think all this debate is moot. Torts might have had marginally better success with this roster, but he's not taking this roster to the finals. The organization isn't where it is because of poor coaching.

You're right. It wasn't a coaching issue. At the 2011/2012 trade deadline (when the Nash hoopla was in full swing), the team made it known that they did not want the energy in the locker room to change. That summer, after the best run in years, Sather traded a couple of guys who were key to that energy/attitude, let another couple walk, and brought in a guy with a long reputation for working hard only when he wanted to. This is (and was) a very young team. When everyone is playing 120%, the whole team follows. Those kids saw guys who gave their all shipped out, and saw a lazy primadonna take their place.

If Nash is going to get paid close to 8 mil to put in half assed efforts, why should they do any different? Hell, he even gets rewarded with a letter and guaranteed ice time. Look at the guys who have gone downhill. Stepan? Hagelin? These guys don't seem to skate quite as hard as they used to. It was easy for Cally to lead when he had a few co-generals out their with him on just about every line to lead the way. Once Nash got here, the room had a choice. One leader wanted them to sacrifice themselves for the good of the team. The other was all about "hey, do what feels good--we get paid either way." It should have been no surprise that some of the guys would want to follow the Nash method. That's one of the reasons Columbus wanted rid of him (and a lot of their young guys have looked much better as a result of a new energy in their room).

This team is going nowhere until Nash goes elsewhere. He's anathema to winning hockey.

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Old
12-28-2013, 05:55 AM
  #592
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Which players regret our coach being fired? Those who liked competing every night and being held accountable to do so.

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12-28-2013, 07:55 AM
  #593
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12-28-2013, 08:15 AM
  #594
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12-28-2013, 09:55 AM
  #595
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Something tells me if Torts were here, our record would be about the same and he'd be on the hot seat anyway.

The difference is that we made the change in the offseason as opposed to half way through the season.

The bottom line is that this team has too many scoring questions marks, not enough grit and doesn't have Henrik Lundqvist playing like Henrik Lundqvist.
Agreed. No coach is capable of solving deep-seeded personnel problems.

We are getting a lesson on what the team looks like when a goaltender isn't saving them every night.

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12-28-2013, 10:16 AM
  #596
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Agreed. No coach is capable of solving deep-seeded personnel problems.

We are getting a lesson on what the team looks like when a goaltender isn't saving them every night.
Well yes, when you have a roster designed around someone who is (hopefully not was) the best goalie in the world and he slumps, you're going to look bad for sure. Whether that's a good strategy or not...

This kind of thing is why we've all been quivering in fear that he would get hurt for the last few years. I don't think anyone would have predicted that he'd be healthy and just playing poorly.

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12-28-2013, 10:19 AM
  #597
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Well yes, when you have a roster designed around someone who is (hopefully not was) the best goalie in the world and he slumps, you're going to look bad for sure. Whether that's a good strategy or not...

This kind of thing is why we've all been quivering in fear that he would get hurt for the last few years. I don't think anyone would have predicted that he'd be healthy and just playing poorly.
What does designing a roster around your goaltender mean exactly? I've heard the Rangers talk about it, and it sounds like idiocy to me. You either have a good goaltender of you dont. He either stops pucks or he doesnt.

But building a roster around a goaltender? It makes no sense. It sounds like lip service

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12-28-2013, 10:55 AM
  #598
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Sather has never built a roster around Lundqvist. If that were the case, then why the hell is he always acquiring and overpaying one-dimensional offense guys like Zherdev, Naslund, Redden, Gomez, Nash, Gaborik, Richards etc.

Floating wimps who avoid two zones and the body? Yeah, that's exactly what any goaltender wants.

Sather never liked two-way forwards. He likes one-way forwards. Matt Cullen, Pascal Dupuis, Lauri Korpikoski, Anisimov....look who those guys were traded for or replaced by.

It's just a matter of time until Semin is a Ranger.

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12-28-2013, 11:04 AM
  #599
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
What does designing a roster around your goaltender mean exactly? I've heard the Rangers talk about it, and it sounds like idiocy to me. You either have a good goaltender of you dont. He either stops pucks or he doesnt.

But building a roster around a goaltender? It makes no sense. It sounds like lip service
When he can steal period after period, and game after game in a certain system, it does make sense. It's the biggest reason why the Rangers have made the playoffs 6 out of the last 7.

I understand that sports are all always about the here and now, and the only question that matters to some is what have you done for me lately?

But that formula for wins is not lip service.

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12-28-2013, 11:05 AM
  #600
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Look at Hitchcock's Stars.

Nieuwendyk, Modano, Lehtinen, Hogue, Langenbrunner.....Plus real checking lines with real guys who knew how to shut guys down. Hitchcock wanted the best defensive forwards in the game -- old or not. So he went out and got guys from the organization who wrote the book on how to shut people down and transition.

Carbonneau, Skrudland, Keane, Gilchrist, Muller. Guys from a winning organization.

Sather's obsessed with expansion team talent -- Wild, Coyotes and Blue Jackets.

The teams he should be trading with -- Boston, Chicago, Vancouver, San Jose -- want no part of anybody in this organization. So we as fans are stuck with the scrap heap.

Garbage in. Garbage out.

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