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FA Signings, Trade Rumors and Proposals Thread VIII: "The makeup has to be jigged"

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Old
10-28-2013, 01:21 AM
  #451
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Interesting development. Well when things change, they must be reevaluated. Perhaps IB has picked up a source. We'll see if he can repeat. If so, perhaps he'll need to be removed from the filter.
Meh, theres a reason to doubt him. He'll need to rebuild some credibility before he's going to get out of the filter.

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10-28-2013, 01:32 AM
  #452
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Originally Posted by Soli View Post
Incarcerated Bob called the Moulson to BUF Trade 15 minutes before it happened. He got the Moulson part right, thought it was for Miller, but corrected himself a couple of minutes before Staples broke the news.

Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every once and a while. Props where props are due.
gotta watch what bob posts when he posts-- he has magic fingers when it comes to editing tweets which I find amusing

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10-28-2013, 01:56 AM
  #453
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gotta watch what bob posts when he posts-- he has magic fingers when it comes to editing tweets which I find amusing
You can't edit tweets...

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10-28-2013, 03:13 AM
  #454
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You can't edit tweets...
he has actually done it a few time-- how we do not know

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10-28-2013, 03:53 AM
  #455
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Originally Posted by Joey Moss View Post
Couldn't disagree more. Jones has looked like his old self, the 4th line knows it's role and has performed it this year, Gordon is an upgrade on Horcoff/Belanger. Right now with injuries it looks terrible on paper and has still been more effective than last years healthy group. I'm not sure how you see it differently. When/if the Oilers become healthy you're looking at more of a three scoring line look than a bottom 6. If we can run three scoring lines and have the 4th line playing like it is now and creating energy that's huge for the team. If Ryan Jones continues his play I really wonder what happens. The obvious decision is demote Eager but Arcobello's likely staying up also.

Hall - Nuge - Eberle
Joensuu - Gagner - Yakupov
Perron - Gordon - Hemsky
Gazdic - Arcobello - Jones
Acton and Mac scratches?
Yeah, I think the Oilers' bottom6 is more or less ok, but top6 isn't what a good NHL team should have. They need players like Backes... At least one such guy. And should trade one of young guns for him. Sure you won't get Backes, but I think there are other options.

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10-28-2013, 03:57 AM
  #456
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Originally Posted by armandh01 View Post
If you aren't convinced our bottom 6 isn't better than last year then what do you expect from a bottom 6?
What about it is better? Gordon? Yeah, he's a small but significant upgrade on Horcoff. The rest?

So far this year, what could be termed our "bottom 6" in terms of even strength ice time (of players who've played at least 6 games-- roughly half) is:
Acton
Gazdic
Brown
Jones
Smyth
Gordon

Of those guys, who can PK? 4. Except that the PK unit's one of the worst in the league. Who can play on the PP with a healthy lineup? Probably just Smyth. Maybe Gordon because of his toughness and faceoff ability.

Smyth and Gordon are really the only guys who can move up the lineup into, say, second line minutes and not get creamed.

Last year (bottom-6 forwards in 5v5 minutes who played at least half the Oilers' games)?
Hartikainen
Petrell
Belanger
Jones
Smyth
Horcoff

Who could PK? 5. And they had one of the better PK units in the league. Who could play on the PP in a healthy lineup? Hartikainen, Smyth, Horcoff (in a similar role to Gordon this year).

Their bottom-6 last year was more versatile overall and arguably better at special teams (though a lot of that obviously falls on systems as well).

Also, 3 guys in Hartikainen, Smyth, and Horcoff who could capably move into the 2nd line role in a pinch and not get slaughtered in possession and shots ratios (compared to two this year).

MacTavish talked about how he wanted the bottom-6 to be more than just a non-factor on their best days. Well they've pretty much regressed in that. No, neither is going to score much, but at least last year the bottom-6 contributed heavily to a good specialty teams squad. This year, they're not even doing that. I recognize that injuries are a problem, but they were last year too...you need to assemble quality depth to be able to battle even with a few guys down. And he absolutely failed in that.

Goaltending? He hedged the safe bet (Dubnyk and LaBarbera have a good track record of being average-at-worst starting and backup goalies). Defense? I think he did very well in amassing talent with the acquisition of a top-pairing defender proving to be difficult. Offense? Re-upping Arcobello and acquiring Perron were very astute moves, and Joensuu and Gordon may offer more 3rd line pop than previously thought too. But his rebuild of the bottom-6 was pretty pathetic. Having guys like Acton, Gazdic, Jones, Eager, Lander, Pitlick, etc. is fine in trying to augment an injured lineup. But ideally, you have one more useful line ahead of the likes of Gazdic, Acton, and Eager, so that all those guys don't make up the bottom 6 if injuries do hit-- instead, they just make up the 4th line or a part thereof.

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10-28-2013, 04:05 AM
  #457
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Originally Posted by Joey Moss View Post
Couldn't disagree more. Jones has looked like his old self, the 4th line knows it's role and has performed it this year, Gordon is an upgrade on Horcoff/Belanger. Right now with injuries it looks terrible on paper and has still been more effective than last years healthy group. I'm not sure how you see it differently. When/if the Oilers become healthy you're looking at more of a three scoring line look than a bottom 6. If we can run three scoring lines and have the 4th line playing like it is now and creating energy that's huge for the team. If Ryan Jones continues his play I really wonder what happens. The obvious decision is demote Eager but Arcobello's likely staying up also.

Hall - Nuge - Eberle
Joensuu - Gagner - Yakupov
Perron - Gordon - Hemsky
Gazdic - Arcobello - Jones
Acton and Mac scratches?
Outside of ONE good season 2 years ago on a checking line with Horc and Smyth, Jones has bled shots and chances against. Even as his 'old self,' he's still nothing more than a decent 4th liner who can fill in on the 3rd line in a pinch.

Last year's lineup had more useful bottom-6ers than this year. They were almost all contributors on one of the special teams, or both.

IF the team is healthy (they never are), the lines look good. But MacT, while doing a great job of amassing depth on defense for that inevitability, has done a terrible job of it on the bottom-6.

Sure, with everybody healthy (this is my guess):

Hall - RNH - Eberle
Gagner - Arcobello - Yakupov
Perron - Gordon - Hemsky
Smyth - Acton - Joensuu

That looks like a well-balanced lineup. Could use some more size, but even the smaller players tend to be pretty feisty.

The problem is that in today's NHL, you almost NEVER have a healthy lineup. And Edmonton's depth below that is dreadful. Starting an NHL season with Gazdic - Acton - Mike Brown should be punishable by jail time.

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10-28-2013, 04:12 AM
  #458
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Originally Posted by bozwell View Post
he has actually done it a few time-- how we do not know
So Bob Stauffer broke twitter.

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10-28-2013, 04:12 AM
  #459
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Originally Posted by Kshahdoo View Post
Yeah, I think the Oilers' bottom6 is more or less ok, but top6 isn't what a good NHL team should have. They need players like Backes... At least one such guy. And should trade one of young guns for him. Sure you won't get Backes, but I think there are other options.
Yeah, and I'd love a vault of money that I could go swimming in like Scrooge McDuck. The fact is, though, that big, rugged, tough, physical power forwards capable of playing top-6 minutes are extremely hard to come by.

And there are lots of good NHL teams without that kind of player. The Oilers' top-6 is easily in the upper echelon of the league. And to suggest that a player like Backes is the difference between winning and losing right now is totally ridiculous.

The problems lie in their depth forward spots, goaltending (which should correct itself), coaching (which should correct itself as players become familiar), and top-end d-men (extremely difficult to fix). The easiest fix, right now, is their depth forwards-- and that could have a big effect on special teams, defensive coverage, and having 4 lines which can provide offensive pressure on the regular. It could address a bunch of problems and wouldn't cost much to do so.

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10-28-2013, 04:22 AM
  #460
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Originally Posted by Horseradish View Post
Yeah, and I'd love a vault of money that I could go swimming in like Scrooge McDuck. The fact is, though, that big, rugged, tough, physical power forwards capable of playing top-6 minutes are extremely hard to come by.

And there are lots of good NHL teams without that kind of player. The Oilers' top-6 is easily in the upper echelon of the league. And to suggest that a player like Backes is the difference between winning and losing right now is totally ridiculous.

The problems lie in their depth forward spots, goaltending (which should correct itself), coaching (which should correct itself as players become familiar), and top-end d-men (extremely difficult to fix). The easiest fix, right now, is their depth forwards-- and that could have a big effect on special teams, defensive coverage, and having 4 lines which can provide offensive pressure on the regular. It could address a bunch of problems and wouldn't cost much to do so.
Alright, name them. I mean good NHL teams. Really good, teams as most Edmonton fans would want Oilers look like.

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10-28-2013, 04:39 AM
  #461
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So Bob Stauffer broke twitter.
Wrong bob

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10-28-2013, 06:40 AM
  #462
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Originally Posted by Kshahdoo View Post
Alright, name them. I mean good NHL teams. Really good, teams as most Edmonton fans would want Oilers look like.
Playoff teams?

Detroit. Bertuzzi? Maybe, but he's no more of a top-6 player than Joensuu is.

Montreal was a high seeded team last year without a hulking Backes type. A couple of decently big players in Eller and Bourque, but nothing earth shattering and they're not exactly physically dominant players.

NY Islanders.

Ottawa. Michalek and Ryan are tough customers, but they're not huge.

Toronto.

Vancouver. Kassian, maybe, but he couldn't even pot 20 playing on a line with two of the best offensive stars in the entire league.

Chicago, arguably. They're certainly sturdy, maybe above average in size, but don't have a power forward, really. Bickell, maybe, but he's not a definite top-6 forward.



It's certainly something they'd love to have, but you usually have to overpay for them and even then the good ones tend to be enigmatic. Of the guys available out there who could potentially be available, I'm not sure any of them are an upgrade on what we have:

Labrie out of Tampa looks like he could have a career as a borderline 2nd liner, based on his totals in every other league.

Patrick Maroon out of Anaheim would be a guy I'd easily take a flier on. He's 25 and has produced at a PPG pace in the A for a while now. Could probably be had too.

Maybe Mashinter out of NYR would be worth a flier.

Some others would be Chris Stewart, Kulemin, Soderberg (Boston), Colin Wilson, Drew Stafford, David Moss, Scott Hartnell, and not many others, but you'd pay a lot for them. Is it worth an overpay? I'm not sure.

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10-28-2013, 07:29 AM
  #463
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Originally Posted by OilerFan4Life View Post
Moulson is also a pending UFA but you have to figure the Sabres can get a 1st easily for him at the deadline.

Sabres could have the 1st pick and 2 other top 20 picks. Wow.
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Originally Posted by teganandsara View Post
That is interesting. Is Vanek that much better than Moulson. Maybe the Islanders feel Moulson is just a product of Tavares.
Curious to see what Moulson does now. There have been a lot of rumblings about him being a product of Tavares and that they want someone that can generate by themselves. Long Island now has that and Buffalo now needs to make sure that if Moulson can't produce by himself that they find a way for him to play with whatever talent they have left to build his stock up.

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10-28-2013, 09:20 AM
  #464
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Originally Posted by Horseradish View Post
What about it is better? Gordon? Yeah, he's a small but significant upgrade on Horcoff. The rest?

Which is it..small or significant? If you're thinking insignificant, you're very wrong.

So far this year, what could be termed our "bottom 6" in terms of even strength ice time (of players who've played at least 6 games-- roughly half) is:
Acton
Gazdic
Brown
Jones
Smyth
Gordon

Of those guys, who can PK? 4. Except that the PK unit's one of the worst in the league. Who can play on the PP with a healthy lineup? Probably just Smyth. Maybe Gordon because of his toughness and faceoff ability.

Smyth and Gordon are really the only guys who can move up the lineup into, say, second line minutes and not get creamed.

Last year (bottom-6 forwards in 5v5 minutes who played at least half the Oilers' games)?
Hartikainen
Petrell
Belanger
Jones
Smyth
Horcoff

Who could PK? 5. And they had one of the better PK units in the league. Who could play on the PP in a healthy lineup? Hartikainen, Smyth, Horcoff (in a similar role to Gordon this year).

Their bottom-6 last year was more versatile overall and arguably better at special teams (though a lot of that obviously falls on systems as well).

Also, 3 guys in Hartikainen, Smyth, and Horcoff who could capably move into the 2nd line role in a pinch and not get slaughtered in possession and shots ratios (compared to two this year).

MacTavish talked about how he wanted the bottom-6 to be more than just a non-factor on their best days. Well they've pretty much regressed in that. No, neither is going to score much, but at least last year the bottom-6 contributed heavily to a good specialty teams squad. This year, they're not even doing that. I recognize that injuries are a problem, but they were last year too...you need to assemble quality depth to be able to battle even with a few guys down. And he absolutely failed in that.

Goaltending? He hedged the safe bet (Dubnyk and LaBarbera have a good track record of being average-at-worst starting and backup goalies). Defense? I think he did very well in amassing talent with the acquisition of a top-pairing defender proving to be difficult. Offense? Re-upping Arcobello and acquiring Perron were very astute moves, and Joensuu and Gordon may offer more 3rd line pop than previously thought too. But his rebuild of the bottom-6 was pretty pathetic. Having guys like Acton, Gazdic, Jones, Eager, Lander, Pitlick, etc. is fine in trying to augment an injured lineup. But ideally, you have one more useful line ahead of the likes of Gazdic, Acton, and Eager, so that all those guys don't make up the bottom 6 if injuries do hit-- instead, they just make up the 4th line or a part thereof.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horseradish View Post
Outside of ONE good season 2 years ago on a checking line with Horc and Smyth, Jones has bled shots and chances against. Even as his 'old self,' he's still nothing more than a decent 4th liner who can fill in on the 3rd line in a pinch.

Last year's lineup had more useful bottom-6ers than this year. They were almost all contributors on one of the special teams, or both.

IF the team is healthy (they never are), the lines look good. But MacT, while doing a great job of amassing depth on defense for that inevitability, has done a terrible job of it on the bottom-6.

Sure, with everybody healthy (this is my guess):

Hall - RNH - Eberle
Gagner - Arcobello - Yakupov
Perron - Gordon - Hemsky
Smyth - Acton - Joensuu

That looks like a well-balanced lineup.
Could use some more size, but even the smaller players tend to be pretty feisty.

That's one of the weakest lineups in the western confeance, possibly the league..especially the 2nd line.. I don't disagree that we could use another 3rd line player to put Jones on the 4th line.

The problem is that in today's NHL, you almost NEVER have a healthy lineup. And Edmonton's depth below that is dreadful. Starting an NHL season with Gazdic - Acton - Mike Brown should be punishable by jail time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kshahdoo View Post
Yeah, I think the Oilers' bottom6 is more or less ok, but top6 isn't what a good NHL team should have. They need players like Backes... At least one such guy. And should trade one of young guns for him. Sure you won't get Backes, but I think there are other options.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horseradish View Post
Yeah, and I'd love a vault of money that I could go swimming in like Scrooge McDuck. The fact is, though, that big, rugged, tough, physical power forwards capable of playing top-6 minutes are extremely hard to come by.

And there are lots of good NHL teams without that kind of player. The Oilers' top-6 is easily in the upper echelon of the league. And to suggest that a player like Backes is the difference between winning and losing right now is totally ridiculous.

The problems lie in their depth forward spots, goaltending (which should correct itself), coaching (which should correct itself as players become familiar), and top-end d-men (extremely difficult to fix). The easiest fix, right now, is their depth forwards-- and that could have a big effect on special teams, defensive coverage, and having 4 lines which can provide offensive pressure on the regular. It could address a bunch of problems and wouldn't cost much to do so.
I agree with Kshahdoo in that the Oil need that player. If they have to trade Yak, Gagner, Hemsky and/or prospects and picks, than so be it for the right player.

We're going nowhere until we get a number 1 goalie and fix the terrible mix of players in our top 6. MacT can shuffle the deck with the bottom 6 all year and it will make very little differance (it's systems that make a good PK and we have enough personnel to execute). It's almost always the top 6 forwards that teams depend on for scoring and if they can't win the battles on the boards or in front of the net, we will not have sustained success.
I like Perron's strength and feistiness so we need a little more for the other wing or center.

If we get a stronger top 6 C, trade Gagner for help, either in goal or D.
If we get a stronger winger, trade one of the other wings (my preferance would be Yak but whatever).
Hemsky will be traded at the deadline so may as well get used to the lines without him. If he plays good 3rd line, fine for now.
Acro is playing well but is another small player that will have to go back to Okc until we have injuries in the top 6 unless the team can afford him at 4th C (will depend on the makeup).
'Bold' decisions will have to be made if this team is to succeed in the future..Just winning a few games will not ensure long term success.

Hall-RNH-Eberle
Perron-Gagner-strong RW

or

Hall-RNH-Eberle
Perron-strong C-Yakupov

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10-28-2013, 09:30 AM
  #465
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I would argue nuance and that there are different values for the three you mentioned but my general answer would be to ask you where the drugs you are on. To which you would respond "That is the stuff you were just smoking." Point taken on the overall though. Thanks.

Is my outside assessment of team problems correct?
I think so. It seems pretty obvious to most what the main problems are, but management seems unwilling to address them. That or other teams have realized what their issues are too and they're holding them hostage by keeping ridiculously high asking prices.

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10-28-2013, 09:40 AM
  #466
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Probably a laugh
Quicks been on his radio show alot. He has real sources. He gets NFL stuff ahead of the curve all the time.

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10-28-2013, 10:13 AM
  #467
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I'm not saying I know what the Oilers would give up, but now's the time to have a significant chat with the Sabres about some of their players the Oilers could really use. The 2 guys I think of are Erhoff and Ott, with Stafford tossed in as a salary dump for them.

If the Oilers could add these 3 pieces, get an extention for Ott, and make the dollars work, they would become a significantly better team right now.

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10-28-2013, 10:17 AM
  #468
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I'm not saying I know what the Oilers would give up, but now's the time to have a significant chat with the Sabres about some of their players the Oilers could really use. The 2 guys I think of are Erhoff and Ott, with Stafford tossed in as a salary dump for them.

If the Oilers could add these 3 pieces, get an extention for Ott, and make the dollars work, they would become a significantly better team right now.
Making the dollars work is going to be the problem. Buffalo isn't going to be looking to bring back equal salary, which we'd pretty much have to do.

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10-28-2013, 10:25 AM
  #469
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No interest in Goligoski is Garrioch is correct? (which is 50/50 or worse these days).

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10-28-2013, 10:28 AM
  #470
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I'm not saying I know what the Oilers would give up, but now's the time to have a significant chat with the Sabres about some of their players the Oilers could really use. The 2 guys I think of are Erhoff and Ott, with Stafford tossed in as a salary dump for them.

If the Oilers could add these 3 pieces, get an extention for Ott, and make the dollars work, they would become a significantly better team right now.
Ehrhoff, Ott and Stafford is 11 million in cap.

There is no way we can afford that unless we send something like Hemmer, Smid and Yakupov to BUF, but still we would be taking on 1.5 mill extra and the Oilers wouldn't want to sell Yakupov that low.

I'm a real advocate of trading Yakupov, I think he's going to end up being one of the worst 1st overalls in years but you gotta try and sell him high to to Gm who thinks highly of him.

I would love to get Myers or Ehrhoff out of BUF, I would try something centered around Yak for one of those guys.

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10-28-2013, 10:30 AM
  #471
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he has actually done it a few time-- how we do not know
it's literally impossible, you cannot edit tweets.

He might've deleted one them posted one right after.

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10-28-2013, 10:39 AM
  #472
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Ott was just named full time team captain… I don't think he is going anywhere soon..

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10-28-2013, 10:46 AM
  #473
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Based on what BUF got for Vanek:

To EDM: Miller
To BUF: Dubnyk + 1st + 3rd

again 2 UFAs after this season with a 1st+ being the difference.

Dont expect many here to agree since we rate 1st rounders very highly here.
Isle fans wouldve done a "GTFO and AINEC" if the deal that went through was proposed on the boards here

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10-28-2013, 10:48 AM
  #474
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
Based on what BUF got for Vanek:

To EDM: Miller
To BUF: Dubnyk + 1st + 3rd

again 2 UFAs after this season with a 1st+ being the difference.

Dont expect many here to agree since we rate 1st rounders very highly here.
Isle fans wouldve done a "GTFO and AINEC" if the deal that went through was proposed on the boards here
Thats not a valid comparison since NYI is expected to be in the 10-20 range and our first is expected to be in the 5-10 range, with potential to be 1st overall even with Miller.

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10-28-2013, 10:52 AM
  #475
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Thats not a valid comparison since NYI is expected to be in the 10-20 range and our first is expected to be in the 5-10 range, with potential to be 1st overall even with Miller.
Yeah I agree, If Edmonton was closer to a playoff spot it would make more sense. I know you changed the 2nd to a 3rd but the value still isn't there..

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