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Why is a guy named Frans Nielsen outscoring John Tavares?

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Old
11-04-2013, 01:14 PM
  #326
Macch
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Originally Posted by Frankie41987 View Post
The point is superstars in this league don't need other superstars on their lines to succeed. Look at Crosby, he has Dupois and Kunitz. Neither are superstars but they do enough skate hard, forecheck and play along the boards to open up enough room for crosby. Thats all crosby needs. Similarly, Jagr was a great linemate for Giroux. Jagr actually led that flyers team in zone entries, which despite only having 54 points, was really helpful to alleviate some defensive coverage from Giroux. And thats the whole problem with Moulson. His zone entry was some absymal number like 16%. As with Boyes. And both had horrific turnover stats. Point is that the point totals are not the best thing to look at when judging the effectiveness of a linemate for a superstar player.


No no no no. This post makes too much sense. Delete it!!!

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Old
11-04-2013, 01:30 PM
  #327
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Why are people concerned about this when it's not even 1/4 of the season yet?

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11-04-2013, 02:34 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by hunter7isles View Post
Fine, and that's understandable and everything, but do you understand how you might just fuel the fire with arguments as ridiculous as talking about how two teammates are outscoring him after 14 games? Just absurd. Would you feel better about Tavares if he had 11 points and Nielsen and Okposo had 7 points each? Nielsen and Okposo having great starts to the season don't take away from the fact that JT is by far the best player on the team.

You don't like all the JT talk? Don't fuel the fire with nonsensical arguments.
I only come in when he starts getting overrated, but I understand why you get annoyed. It is sort of like when Lundqvist was struggling and people were completely writing him off. Tavares will shine this season and be great just like the last two

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Old
11-04-2013, 02:37 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by Rehabguy View Post
Geeeeeeezzzzzz! Another thread to try to bash the best player under 25 today!

And it's the same handful of posters AGAIN! What are we going to do with you guys? All we need now is Lebowski to join Sky04, BigBuffalo, and Pronounced Anders to complete the party!

JT is only 5 points, FIVE points out of 2nd place in league points. He has earned a point in every game but 1 since he start of the season. What more do you guys want?

He has ONCE AGAIN revitalized the career of a struggling player in Okposo by having him as a linemate. What more evidence do you NEED?

Do I take a Stamkos over Tavares to take the Islanders to the promised land? HELL NO, NO WAY, ARE YOU FRIGGING CRAZY????

The OP must have started this thread now, because he knows in a few days they are going to have to keep their pie holes shut because the JT bashing days are coming to and end real fast.

Crosby has his Malkin

Stamkos has his MSL

and now

Tavares has Vanek (not in the same league as the other two, but the elite don't require the best to be the best)

Ok, let's try them apples for a while
Just as everybody, JT supporters or not, are becoming more rational, rehabguy shows up


Last edited by bigbuffalo313: 11-04-2013 at 05:20 PM.
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Old
11-04-2013, 02:39 PM
  #330
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I don't get the hate in this thread. JT's had a good start to the season and hasn't even looked that hot yet. I'm sure he'll have a great year, there is still lots of hockey to be played.

Tavares would be the top forward on about 75% of the teams in the league. People need to just deal with it.

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Old
11-04-2013, 02:58 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by 88th Precinct View Post
Quite. To compare - Chicago fans don't complain about how much Toews is considered "elite" - and to be perfectly honest, that's the closest player comparison I can make, given the production and cases of young captaincy.

Tavares will lead and still be a threat, and the Isles are getting better "mob justice" scoring, which should improve with the growth of players like Strome and Nelson pushing players like Bouchard out of the lineup.
Toews is far, far, far better in his own zone than Tavares. Plus the best player on a cup and gold medal team. Its not a good player comparison, Toews has proven a lot more than Tavares.

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Old
11-04-2013, 03:04 PM
  #332
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Nielsen is fun to watch. Smart. Good hands. Nasty in the shootout... the best in the shootout.

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Old
11-04-2013, 05:12 PM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
Who did Giroux have when he scored 93 points? Oh yeah...a 54 point Jagr.

Funny...if JT's linemates get points, JT gets all the credit, if they don't, JT plays with no one. Remember how P.A.P was a product of JT. He seems to be doing ok without him!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
Who did Giroux have when he scored 93 points? Oh yeah...a 54 point Jagr.

Funny...if JT's linemates get points, JT gets all the credit, if they don't, JT plays with no one. Remember how P.A.P was a product of JT. He seems to be doing ok without him!
I can not name single player in the NHL who has played alongside John Tavares and who has not seen a significant improvement in their play.

Look at Okposo. The man is ON FIRE! Same for Moulson, same for Paps. Elite players bring out the talent of their linemates. Everyone accepts the fact that Crosby plays with average linemates. Yet are they NOT performing better having playing with Crosby than their abilities should suggest?

Moulson and Paps should be better players now that they played alongside one of the budding elites in the game today. That's what they mean when they say franchise players make the players around them better. What else do you think they mean by that?

The only constant with all these wingers doing well now is John Tavares.

Vanek is an established player with great skill that more or less levels the playing field when compare John Tavares to the other greats in the game today. It should be fun season for JT fans.

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11-04-2013, 05:52 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by Rehabguy View Post
I can not name single player in the NHL who has played alongside John Tavares and who has not seen a significant improvement in their play.

Look at Okposo. The man is ON FIRE! Same for Moulson, same for Paps. Elite players bring out the talent of their linemates. Everyone accepts the fact that Crosby plays with average linemates. Yet are they NOT performing better having playing with Crosby than their abilities should suggest?

Moulson and Paps should be better players now that they played alongside one of the budding elites in the game today. That's what they mean when they say franchise players make the players around them better. What else do you think they mean by that?

The only constant with all these wingers doing well now is John Tavares.

Vanek is an established player with great skill that more or less levels the playing field when compare John Tavares to the other greats in the game today. It should be fun season for JT fans.
That leads into a long argument about how much players actually make such improvements with different linemates and how much it's just the numbers that improve from playing with a guy who racks up points. And I think you're being naive if you think you have an answer to that question.

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Old
11-04-2013, 07:51 PM
  #335
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JT's a bust

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Old
11-04-2013, 07:54 PM
  #336
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Its only like 15 games in. Give me a break. So many people start out hot then cool down. Hertl is a prime example. Neilson is a good player, but he wont keep this pace up. Tavares will have at least 20 more points then him.

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11-04-2013, 08:17 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by Rehabguy View Post
I can not name single player in the NHL who has played alongside John Tavares and who has not seen a significant improvement in their play.

Look at Okposo. The man is ON FIRE! Same for Moulson, same for Paps. Elite players bring out the talent of their linemates. Everyone accepts the fact that Crosby plays with average linemates. Yet are they NOT performing better having playing with Crosby than their abilities should suggest?

Moulson and Paps should be better players now that they played alongside one of the budding elites in the game today. That's what they mean when they say franchise players make the players around them better. What else do you think they mean by that?

The only constant with all these wingers doing well now is John Tavares.

Vanek is an established player with great skill that more or less levels the playing field when compare John Tavares to the other greats in the game today. It should be fun season for JT fans.
Okposo did have 9 points in 11 games to end last year without JT. Maybe he is finally reaching his potential. Remember all of the "Iginla" comparisons?

I do think JT helps other players to be better. But I also think Isles fans think .jT is the ONLY reason they do well...which PAP showed is not true. JT is great, just not top 10 great YET. Maybe this is the year.

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Old
11-04-2013, 08:54 PM
  #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
Who did Giroux have when he scored 93 points? Oh yeah...a 54 point Jagr.
I don't really give a **** about Giroux specifically, but people are a little nuts about stats. It really does depend on who is on your team, who your coach is, and the style of play your team implements. Those things play a large role in how many points players will produce, pretty much regardless of how talented they are (as long as they buy into the system).

That year the Flyers were one of the best offensive teams in the league. And had one of the best PP's in the league. They were also in the top 5 in PP opportunities. 14 players were over 20 points for the season, and they had 8 players over 40 points for the season. Perhaps Giroux racked up a lot of assists because of the system they used, and the fact that they were on the PP more than almost anyone else in the NHL.

Quote:
Funny...if JT's linemates get points, JT gets all the credit, if they don't, JT plays with no one. Remember how P.A.P was a product of JT. He seems to be doing ok without him!
He's not actually. PAP is struggling a bit more with his game this season since being bumped off the first line. Funny, isn't it? He produces the most when he's on that top line...hhmmmmm.

Now, you could make that argument about a lot of guys I'm sure, but lets not pretend PAP when to the island of misfit players and hasn't been playing with a nice supporting cast. I do like PAP and think he's an underrated passer by most.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
Okposo did have 9 points in 11 games to end last year without JT. Maybe he is finally reaching his potential. Remember all of the "Iginla" comparisons?
Okposo is maddening to watch. He gets some ridiculous points. Flashes of great skills and then boneheaded mistakes. I personally don't think he fits on the top line, and his stats don't tell the whole story behind his play.

Quote:
I do think JT helps other players to be better. But I also think Isles fans think .jT is the ONLY reason they do well...which PAP showed is not true. JT is great, just not top 10 great YET. Maybe this is the year.
If you're putting guys like Giroux in the top 10, I'd have an issue with that. If not, that's fine. I live in the Philly market and I watch a ton of Flyers hockey and get all of their coverage.

And quite frankly, I don't care if people don't like JT or don't think he's as good as 'x' or 'y', because I'm thrilled the Isles have him. There is almost nobody else in the NHL that I'd have wanted over JT at this point, for what he's done on the ice and off of it for this team and franchise. I'll be a JT fan for life.

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Old
11-11-2013, 01:35 AM
  #339
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It took 18 games but finally John Tavares is back on top!

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11-12-2013, 09:51 PM
  #340
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Originally Posted by Mulletman View Post
It took 18 games but finally John Tavares is back on top!
Barely. Isles now have 3 scorers in the top 10. Lol who saw that happening.

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11-12-2013, 11:11 PM
  #341
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Originally Posted by Mulletman View Post
I just saw that a guy named Frans Nielsen is outscoring John Tavares on the New York Islanders. Who is this guy? And why is he outscoring John Tavares? Can somebody who watches the Islanders regularly tell me that. I mean John Tavares is supposed to be one of the best players in the world and the best on the Islanders roster by far...
Numbers don't always tell the story. If you get a chance watch happens when Tavares gets into the offensive zone with the puck. At least 2 guys focus on him. Kinda hard to score when you're being boxed in. Not as hard to put up points though if there's someone nearby to give the puck to and the sense to give it to him .....

that's pretty much why you have a shut down pair against a top 3. (examples- Girardi, Scuderi, Chara, etc)

Also better defensive minded players match up against Tavares.

then again it could just be a coincidence. Nielsen plays against better offensive players. Not to say offensive minded players can't play defense, just not as well as defensive specialists ...


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11-12-2013, 11:21 PM
  #342
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Nielsen is a great, great two way player who seems to have stepped his offense up. His deal is one of the best out there (well not for him. he could have gotten way more).

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11-12-2013, 11:22 PM
  #343
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Originally Posted by Frankie41987 View Post
And this is not at all an attempt to say, Tavares should/will score more with Vanek or that he is better than his stats/better than giroux blah blah. Tavares line has always produced enough, the problem was if that line wasn't scoring it was letting up goals because of moulson/boyes complete lack of other aspects to their game. Despite Vanek not being the fastest player, puck possession alone will prevent the puck from being on the defensive side of the ice.
This post needs to be pinned to the top of the Islander board. That and side by side video clips of Moulson and Vanek.

Your other post is just as pointed. Crosby simply needed linemates that provided him more room. I'd make the same argument for Tavares. He doesn't need superstars, just good fitting parts to a line built around him. Is Vanek one of those parts... that's a good question. I'd almost rather have Kunitz.

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Old
11-13-2013, 01:32 AM
  #344
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JT one point off the league lead.

This thread looks even more stupid.

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11-13-2013, 01:59 AM
  #345
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If the Leafs would have had a second line, they probably would have won at least one Cup.



*ahem*




thanks, i needed that.

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11-13-2013, 02:28 AM
  #346
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Bear View Post



*ahem*




thanks, i needed that.
Why are you laughing? Only the Flyers had more post-season wins than Quinn's Leafs in that time span without winning a cup.

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11-13-2013, 08:34 AM
  #347
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Originally Posted by giddy up View Post
JT one point off the league lead.

This thread looks even more stupid.
But he's overrated remember? Sheesh.

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Old
11-13-2013, 12:00 PM
  #348
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Well at the risk of sounding "irrational", should we really be surprised that he's at the top of the scoring race once again this year?

Elite players such as Tavares are consistent year after year. They make average players good and good players great. It should come as no surprise that he has once again elevated the play of yet another good player in Okposo. For detractors to deny this is at the height of ignorance.

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11-13-2013, 02:24 PM
  #349
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funniest thing i read all day
Absolutely hilarious indeed LOL!

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11-13-2013, 09:39 PM
  #350
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JT sucks...hes just benefiting from playing with okposo....plus nielsen is taking the #1 d pairings every night

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