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Old
05-29-2014, 05:56 PM
  #76
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The difference in non-offensive players being judged on offensive stats is that their offensive stats back up that they were at least worthy of the ice time they were given. They have those numbers because they're someone who earned the ice time and earned the trust to be put in those situations. Zac Rinaldo was never trusted with that in the OHL, again in the AHL, for some reason at times in the NHL he is. That is to their failings, it manifested itself in Game 7.

Goulbourne has eclipsed Zac Rinaldo's goal totals in 50 less games, and has only 5 fewer total points. It speaks more to that Zac Rinaldo never was, still isn't, and never will be worthy of an NHL contract let alone a draft pick. Goulbourne at least seems to be working his way up the ladder on his team. I don't know Kelowna's situation, but hopefully he will be given a top 6 role there. He's also yet to eclipse 200 PIMs, so that tells me he's out there trying to play and not trying to kill people and get into fights.

As much as I hated the pick and would still contend he shouldn't have been a 3rd round pick (as any sane person should also think), it's also not like Goulbourne was a name picked out of a hat, I believe ISS or one of the independent scouting services at least had him ranked, so I'm sure he was on other team's radar, unlike Rinaldo who very likely was not.

Beyond that, if Hextall chooses to not sign him, not his mistake.

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05-30-2014, 02:37 AM
  #77
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Expectations were low but Ghoul has somewhat exceeded them. He may have a fair shot as a bottom-6 role player in the NHL if he earns an ELC. Let's keep it like that.


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05-30-2014, 07:22 AM
  #78
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Expectations were low but Ghoul has somewhat exceeded them. He may have a fair shot as a bottom-6 role player in the NHL if he earns an ELC. Let's keep it like that.
Well he's got to be doing something wrong if the team seems to have a problem woth signing him to an ELC.

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05-30-2014, 07:35 AM
  #79
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Well he's got to be doing something wrong if the team seems to have a problem woth signing him to an ELC.
I think they are trying to save face for an awful pick. Even though they have the slots Hexy doesn't want to waste it on a guy that has no future with the team. Some people within the organization obviously liked the guy so it's likely a slap in the face to them if he's drafted in the 3rd and not offered anything. So they gave him the minimum with a 50-50 chance that Goul signs the AHL deal or he walks...either way it'll likely be the last contract he'll ever sign.

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05-30-2014, 08:25 AM
  #80
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I think they are trying to save face for an awful pick. Even though they have the slots Hexy doesn't want to waste it on a guy that has no future with the team. Some people within the organization obviously liked the guy so it's likely a slap in the face to them if he's drafted in the 3rd and not offered anything. So they gave him the minimum with a 50-50 chance that Goul signs the AHL deal or he walks...either way it'll likely be the last contract he'll ever sign.
I'l make sure you bump this thread when he signs with another team and ends up scoring 5 goals in game 7 of the SCF while winning the Conn SMythe

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05-30-2014, 08:37 AM
  #81
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I'l make sure you bump this thread when he signs with another team and ends up scoring 5 goals in game 7 of the SCF while winning the Conn SMythe
happily.

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05-30-2014, 09:54 AM
  #82
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Well he's got to be doing something wrong if the team seems to have a problem woth signing him to an ELC.
Not really. They didn't even have to offer him anything until next year. It wasn't really far-fetched to think he would play his overaged season anyway. A lot of guys do it. If anything offering him an AHL contract at this stage is a good thing. They want him in the organization next season. I can't recall anyone going this route that has already been drafted by the franchise. If he signs an ELC it won't slide if he plays in Kelowna. He's not playing in the NHL this season, so from the Flyer's POV it makes little sense to have his ELC start this season. I know burning a year on an ELC deal is something we often overlook, but for a team that is always against the cap, it is something to consider.

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05-30-2014, 10:41 AM
  #83
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Not really. They didn't even have to offer him anything until next year. It wasn't really far-fetched to think he would play his overaged season anyway. A lot of guys do it. If anything offering him an AHL contract at this stage is a good thing. They want him in the organization next season. I can't recall anyone going this route that has already been drafted by the franchise. If he signs an ELC it won't slide if he plays in Kelowna. He's not playing in the NHL this season, so from the Flyer's POV it makes little sense to have his ELC start this season. I know burning a year on an ELC deal is something we often overlook, but for a team that is always against the cap, it is something to consider.
This is what I think as well. People are reading way too much into the fact that it's an AHL only deal. The Flyers are just buying an extra year or so of development time.

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05-30-2014, 11:01 AM
  #84
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Not really. They didn't even have to offer him anything until next year. It wasn't really far-fetched to think he would play his overaged season anyway. A lot of guys do it. If anything offering him an AHL contract at this stage is a good thing. They want him in the organization next season. I can't recall anyone going this route that has already been drafted by the franchise. If he signs an ELC it won't slide if he plays in Kelowna. He's not playing in the NHL this season, so from the Flyer's POV it makes little sense to have his ELC start this season. I know burning a year on an ELC deal is something we often overlook, but for a team that is always against the cap, it is something to consider.
Meh I thinking you are reaching at straws here. An example is someone like Mathers who was a 7th round pick and was signed to a contract. The team has shown no problem in the past handing out contracts. He was drafted as a 19 turning 20 yr old. Most solid prospects dont play in juniors as a 21 yr old due to the club team losing their rights after two seasons. Ghoul got lucky in a sense being drafted at 19. An AHL contract can also be looked at that he may not be good enough even for the AHL yet but maybe the ECHL. They can sign him to an AHL contract and not worry about wasting a year off of the ELC if he isnt good enough for even the AHL.

I think it is fully reasonable to think that Hextall might not be his biggest fan. Love or hate it, Hextall is ALL about size. He loves it. I can see him maybe wanting a bigger 4th line.


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05-30-2014, 11:40 AM
  #85
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remember when Flyersguru said we would all love the Shelley signing lirl
Still love the signing, can't predict injuries. Shelley took on all comers and was a great locker room presence for a team that lacked that when Pronger went down. Mock me all you want, he had value to the team on and off the ice.

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05-30-2014, 12:13 PM
  #86
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Still love the signing, can't predict injuries. Shelley took on all comers and was a great locker room presence for a team that lacked that when Pronger went down. Mock me all you want, he had value to the team on and off the ice.
1 year would of been fine. 3 years was just awful.

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05-30-2014, 12:29 PM
  #87
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Meh I thinking you are reaching at straws here. An example is someone like Mathers who was a 7th round pick and was signed to a contract. The team has shown no problem in the past handing out contracts. He was drafted as a 19 turning 20 yr old. Most solid prospects dont play in juniors as a 21 yr old due to the club team losing their rights after two seasons. Ghoul got lucky in a sense being drafted at 19. An AHL contract can also be looked at that he may not be good enough even for the AHL yet but maybe the ECHL. They can sign him to an AHL contract and not worry about wasting a year off of the ELC if he isnt good enough for even the AHL.

I think it is fully reasonable to think that Hextall might not be his biggest fan. Love or hate it, Hextall is ALL about size. He loves it. I can see him maybe wanting a bigger 4th line.
Meh Mathers was drafted as an 18 year old so it didn't matter if he were playing in Adirondack or the OHL as a 20 year old, the first year of his contract was counting either way. Goulbourne doesn't have to be signed for 12 months. If this rumor never gets out, we aren't even having this conversation. It's not unusual for a kid drafted as a 19 year to play until his overage season and sign when his junior career is over. Just off the top of my head, Brady Austin is the most recent signee to do so. What is abnormal is offering a prospect an AHL deal, while he has junior eligibility. If they had no interest in signing him to an NHL contract, they would just let him play out his junior career and not sign him next year. It seems you're reaching for straws.


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05-30-2014, 01:48 PM
  #88
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Meh Mathers was drafted as an 18 year old so it didn't matter if he were playing in Adirondack or the OHL as a 20 year old, the first year of his contract was counting either way. Goulbourne doesn't have to be signed for 12 months. If this rumor never gets out, we aren't even having this conversation. It's not unusual for a kid drafted as a 19 year to play until his overage season and sign when his junior career is over. Just off the top of my head, Brady Austin is the most recent signee to do so. What is abnormal is offering a prospect an AHL deal, while he has junior eligibility. If they had no interest in signing him to an NHL contract, they would just let him play out his junior career and not sign him next year. It seems you're reaching for straws.
Well you are incorrect on Mathers. He signed as a 19 yr old and his first year slid. You are also missing my point. If they really do like him why dont they sign him to an ELC deal? If they like him and think he has a future why not an ELC? They give guys like Mathers ELC. Typically most AHL deals are to players they typically have questions about. It could be their skill or even how to react to the pros. I am just saying if they love him like alot seem to be saying, they wouldnt offer a 20 yr old an AHL contract only. (most good prospects dont go back to juniors as 20-21 yr olds. They are in the minority. Most that do at Ghoul's age are free agents again due to the club not signing them).

They can like players and sign them to AHL level deals if they think they can be an AHL level caliber player. Even if their not they dont have to give him an ELC to play in the ECHL. I question how much Hextall truely likes him. I guess my problem is more of the drafting philosophy where the Flyers dont take the BPA after the first round. I liked Bjork and they had him as the highest rated player, yet they take a typical Flyer instead. In the end they took a 4th-5th round player ahead of a guy they had ranked in the 3rd.

In the end though whoever gets Rinaldo off the ice is ok with me.

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05-30-2014, 02:13 PM
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Shelley? Value? Whaaa...?

Shelley got paid ~3 million dollars to play in 89 games as a Flyer over the course of three seasons. And in those 89 games, he amassed a whopping 2 goals and 5 points. I don't care if he was just an enforcer, that's horrible.

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05-30-2014, 02:17 PM
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Shelley? Value? Whaaa...?

Shelley got paid ~3 million dollars to play in 89 games as a Flyer over the course of three seasons. And in those 89 games, he amassed a whopping 2 goals and 5 points. I don't care if he was just an enforcer, that's horrible.
Yeah but they were dandy's.

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05-30-2014, 02:26 PM
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Yeah but they were dandy's.
1.5 million per goal. They sure as hell should have been lol.

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05-30-2014, 02:28 PM
  #92
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I don't care if he was a funny guy in a locker room. You don't burn 1.1 mil in cap space every year for 3 years for humor.

There's nothing redeeming for the Shelley signing. Both at the time and in hindsight.

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05-30-2014, 02:35 PM
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1.5 million per goal. They sure as hell should have been lol.
Bardown on Ondrej Pavelec & a dangle on Niklas Backstrom, probably two of the more prettier goals I've seen from a player of Shelley's ilk.

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05-30-2014, 02:36 PM
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I don't care if he was a funny guy in a locker room. You don't burn 1.1 mil in cap space every year for 3 years for humor.

There's nothing redeeming for the Shelley signing. Both at the time and in hindsight.
He sucks as a color guy for the CBJ broadcasts as well. He always fumbles over his words like dummy when they go to him between the benches.

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05-30-2014, 02:39 PM
  #95
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Well you are incorrect on Mathers. He signed as a 19 yr old and his first year slid. You are also missing my point. If they really do like him why dont they sign him to an ELC deal? If they like him and think he has a future why not an ELC? They give guys like Mathers ELC. Typically most AHL deals are to players they typically have questions about. It could be their skill or even how to react to the pros. I am just saying if they love him like alot seem to be saying, they wouldnt offer a 20 yr old an AHL contract only. (most good prospects dont go back to juniors as 20-21 yr olds. They are in the minority. Most that do at Ghoul's age are free agents again due to the club not signing them).

They can like players and sign them to AHL level deals if they think they can be an AHL level caliber player. Even if their not they dont have to give him an ELC to play in the ECHL. I question how much Hextall truely likes him. I guess my problem is more of the drafting philosophy where the Flyers dont take the BPA after the first round. I liked Bjork and they had him as the highest rated player, yet they take a typical Flyer instead. In the end they took a 4th-5th round player ahead of a guy they had ranked in the 3rd.

In the end though whoever gets Rinaldo off the ice is ok with me.
It doesn't matter when Mathers signed. He was drafted at 18. No matter if he played for the Phantoms this season or went back for his overage season in the OHL, his first year was counting regardless. Goulbourne was drafted at 19. The Flyers don't have to make a final decision until next year, when conveniently, his junior eligibility is up- one advantage to taking an older player. Mathers' and Goulbourne's contracts are not comparable for this reason.

Why sign a guy to an ELC when you don't have to yet? His contract isn't sliding either way and he has next to 0 chance of playing in the NHL next year. They are trying to low-ball him and essentially get a "free" development year out of him. They like him enough to want him in their system next year. That shows that they have interest in him.

By not offering him an NHL contract, they are basically saying he's not NHL-ready (not shocking). Now if he "holdouts" and doesn't sign the AHL-deal, I guess we will see how bad they want him in Lehigh Valley next year.

I'm not saying he's the greatest or he'll justify his draft position, I'm just saying I wouldn't read too much into the AHL offer. I would be more worried if they didn't offer him anything.

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06-01-2014, 08:47 AM
  #96
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They had Chris Pryor on Philly Sports Talk the evening after the draft and Barkann asked him about that.

To paraphrase, Pryor said that they feel as they get into the later rounds they want guys who will have a better chance of getting into the NHL.

Now I don't agree with that mindset, and I'm sure others don't either. But they'd rather have a grinder who has a 40% chance to make it into the NHL rather than a high potential winger with only a 15% chance to make it to the NHL.



History of Flyer draft picks taken in the "later rounds" currently playing for Philly

Zac Rinaldo

Maybe it's time to change that philosophy?

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06-01-2014, 09:35 AM
  #97
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History of Flyer draft picks taken in the "later rounds" currently playing for Philly

Zac Rinaldo

Maybe it's time to change that philosophy?
No kidding. I would rather take extremely talented guys who "had issues" with attitude, health, or just played in a lesser league. If you get 1 to work out, you could get a Zetterberg, Nyquist, or even a Timonen outcome.

I see NO value in drafting guys that you view as having 4th line upside. I would rather trade away the pick for a project...like Calgary did when they traded a 4th rounder for Colbourne.

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06-01-2014, 09:54 AM
  #98
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History of Flyer draft picks taken in the "later rounds" currently playing for Philly

Zac Rinaldo

Maybe it's time to change that philosophy?
Ghost, Hagg, and Stolarz?

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06-01-2014, 10:31 AM
  #99
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Ghost, Hagg, and Stolarz?
2 2nd rounders and a 3rd rounder don't really qualify as "later rounds" IMO. Only the 3rd has a case to be classified as a later round really (well the 2nd is later then the 1st but you know what I mean).

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06-01-2014, 10:50 AM
  #100
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Ghost, Hagg, and Stolarz?
and even if these guys stick in the NHL it still doesn't say much about the Flyers drafting record after the first round. Add into it just how bad the AHL team has been for so long it hasn't been good.

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