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Sharks at Senators - 10/27/13 - 2:00 PM PST

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Old
10-28-2013, 02:48 PM
  #651
do0glas
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I remember looking at havlats stats, from what I could tell he wasn't really relied on defensively on the couture line. Lots of o Zone starts compared to his line mates. Lower TOI at evens etc.

So Kennedy may have a more balanced game for that line. That line will never be sheltered and Kennedy can move the puck and get it into a zone face off more often than not. That's a huge plus.

Where do you draw the line? I think we aren't looking at the bigger picture for that line. I expect Kennedy to stay up when havlat returns tbh. But havlat may get some offensive starts with that line to generate scoring.

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10-28-2013, 02:49 PM
  #652
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Originally Posted by TealTownUSA View Post
missed the game yesterday. can anyone tell me what the lines were? i saw shep score from jumbo...wth?

Nieto was hurt, so they had to juggle the lines again:


Hertl-JT-Sheppard
Marleau-Couture-Kennedy
McCarthy-Pavs-Wingels
Hamilton-Desi-Brown


The Thornton line still owned the Spezza line (not that Jason had much to work with) and Sheppard played pretty well, so it worked out.

And speaking of the Spezza line, Michalek has been getting abused by Sens fans so far this year. I didn't think he'd ever be a team's whipping boy, but he and Phillips are it right now for Ottawa.

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10-28-2013, 03:00 PM
  #653
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Originally Posted by do0glas View Post
I remember looking at havlats stats, from what I could tell he wasn't really relied on defensively on the couture line. Lots of o Zone starts compared to his line mates. Lower TOI at evens etc.

So Kennedy may have a more balanced game for that line. That line will never be sheltered and Kennedy can move the puck and get it into a zone face off more often than not. That's a huge plus.

Where do you draw the line? I think we aren't looking at the bigger picture for that line. I expect Kennedy to stay up when havlat returns tbh. But havlat may get some offensive starts with that line to generate scoring.
I don't know why people don't think Couture is a playmaker considering that's been a strong part of his game throughout his career.

I agree with the bolded. Considering the surgery Havlat went through and the amount of time he's missed it would be a mistake to put him into a tough minutes situation without seeing where his game is at.

I think he'll slot in with Pavelski to start and if he shows he can still keep up with the pace of the Sharks game they'll eventually move him to Couture's line.

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10-28-2013, 03:06 PM
  #654
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tkachuk4MVP View Post
Nieto was hurt, so they had to juggle the lines again:


Hertl-JT-Sheppard
Marleau-Couture-Kennedy
McCarthy-Pavs-Wingels
Hamilton-Desi-Brown


The Thornton line still owned the Spezza line (not that Jason had much to work with) and Sheppard played pretty well, so it worked out.

And speaking of the Spezza line, Michalek has been getting abused by Sens fans so far this year. I didn't think he'd ever be a team's whipping boy, but he and Phillips are it right now for Ottawa.
And Michalek was apparently the reason why they 'won' the Heatley trade not long ago...


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10-28-2013, 03:18 PM
  #655
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I think all three teams got ****ed by that Heatley-Michalek-Havlat deal. Obviously the Wild got ****ed the hardest, but I'm not sure if I'd rather have Milan or Havlat at this point. They're equally as injury-prone, paid about the same.

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10-28-2013, 03:31 PM
  #656
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Originally Posted by stalockrox View Post
I think he'll slot in with Pavelski to start and if he shows he can still keep up with the pace of the Sharks game they'll eventually move him to Couture's line.
I can't see why he wouldn't continue playing with Pavs, that duo would most likely completely destroy the opponents, or force a better line against them freeing one of the top two lines against lesser competition.

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10-28-2013, 03:44 PM
  #657
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
I think all three teams got ****ed by that Heatley-Michalek-Havlat deal. Obviously the Wild got ****ed the hardest, but I'm not sure if I'd rather have Milan or Havlat at this point. They're equally as injury-prone, paid about the same.
Havlat is good in the playoffs (when healthy) .

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10-28-2013, 03:56 PM
  #658
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Havlat is good in the playoffs (when healthy) .
True. And Milan's playoff numbers are horrendous.

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10-28-2013, 04:25 PM
  #659
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Originally Posted by stalockrox View Post
I don't know why people don't think Couture is a playmaker considering that's been a strong part of his game throughout his career.

I agree with the bolded. Considering the surgery Havlat went through and the amount of time he's missed it would be a mistake to put him into a tough minutes situation without seeing where his game is at.

I think he'll slot in with Pavelski to start and if he shows he can still keep up with the pace of the Sharks game they'll eventually move him to Couture's line.
It's because he's more of a goal scorer than a playmaker. He can pass the puck well but it's not the main part of his game and it's not his best skill. Marleau and Couture are both pretty good at passing the puck but both are better suited as shooters on their line.

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10-28-2013, 04:30 PM
  #660
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
It's because he's more of a goal scorer than a playmaker. He can pass the puck well but it's not the main part of his game and it's not his best skill. Marleau and Couture are both pretty good at passing the puck but both are better suited as shooters on their line.
Marleau is not good at passing the puck. Mechanically, yes. In tight, playmaking spots? No. I've paid attention to this for years and more than 50% of the time he throws an awfully timed pass. He's a scorer (on offense), plain and simple.

Couture is better, but I agree that he should be scoring more with a skilled playmaker.

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10-28-2013, 04:38 PM
  #661
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Originally Posted by Rapid eye movemenT View Post
Marleau is not good at passing the puck. Mechanically, yes. In tight, playmaking spots? No. I've paid attention to this for years and more than 50% of the time he throws an awfully timed pass. He's a scorer (on offense), plain and simple.

Couture is better, but I agree that he should be scoring more with a skilled playmaker.
Marleau is not ever going to be confused with the great passers in this game but he's done more than his fair share setting guys up along the way. He's better than average in this league at passing which is why I said good. Couture is better but he's still not great, imo.

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10-28-2013, 04:57 PM
  #662
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Marleau is not ever going to be confused with the great passers in this game but he's done more than his fair share setting guys up along the way. He's better than average in this league at passing which is why I said good. Couture is better but he's still not great, imo.
I agree, Couture however is brilliant at creating plays, which isn't the same necessarily. Pure passing I'd rank them like:

Thornton

Pavelski
Couture
Havlat
Sheppard
Marleau

Hertl probably falls somewhere in the middle there, but we really haven't seen him use that side of his game much, but its supposedly very good. It's hard to be a great passer when you are being centered by Thornton.

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10-28-2013, 05:04 PM
  #663
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
I agree, Couture however is brilliant at creating plays, which isn't the same necessarily. Pure passing I'd rank them like:

Thornton

Pavelski
Couture
Havlat
Sheppard
Marleau

Hertl probably falls somewhere in the middle there, but we really haven't seen him use that side of his game much, but its supposedly very good. It's hard to be a great passer when you are being centered by Thornton.
it is hard to be seen as a great passer when thornton is on your team alone let alone on your line. every body while thornton is on the team will be compared to him in passing ability (unfair as that is). it will always be, well that was a good pass, but still not great when you look at what thornton can do.

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10-28-2013, 05:21 PM
  #664
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Agreed completely. That's why I want Havlat there when he gets healthy.

I'm happy with Kennedy. He's had a rough pair of games lately, but he was very good to start the season.

It's so nice to be able to argue about whether to put a player like Wingels or Kennedy on the 4th line, whether to send down a player like Nieto or keep him because of too much depth, to actually have a really solid forward corps (presuming Burish and Brown don't draw in).
I really find it hard to believe they would even consider moving wingels to the fourth line. He has 8 points in 12 games(twice as many as kennedy, despite much less pp time), is one of our best forcheckers, one of the league leaders in blocked shots for forwards, one of the most physical players, responsible defensively, etc. No way he gets moved down or scratched. NO way.


Last edited by redfish: 10-28-2013 at 05:26 PM.
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10-28-2013, 05:23 PM
  #665
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
I agree, Couture however is brilliant at creating plays, which isn't the same necessarily. Pure passing I'd rank them like:

Thornton

Pavelski
Couture
Havlat
Sheppard
Marleau

Hertl probably falls somewhere in the middle there, but we really haven't seen him use that side of his game much, but its supposedly very good. It's hard to be a great passer when you are being centered by Thornton.
Cooch is definitely a playmaker in terms of his positioning, his stick-work, and his shooting. He shows some flashes of vision and passing ability but not on a consistent basis. He's a lot more of an interior player to really showcase that ability if he has it.

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10-28-2013, 05:25 PM
  #666
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Originally Posted by hawkytalk View Post
I really find it hard to believe they would even consider moving wingels to the fourth line. He has 8 points in 12 games, is one of our best for checkers, one of the league leaders in blocked shots for forwards, one of the most physical players, responsible defensively, etc. No way he gets moved down or scratched. NO way.
Look at their top nine when they're healthy and tell me who is supposed to be on the 4th line.

Marleau-Couture-Havlat
Hertl-Thornton-Burns
Torres-Pavelski-Kennedy

Which of those guys is he supposed to unseat given their past and their current contracts? I'm not saying that Wingels hasn't outplayed some of those guys but it's a small sample size for now and some like Torres and Havlat haven't gotten the chance yet while Kennedy just got here. They didn't re-sign Kennedy or Torres to their contracts to play the 4th line and they're not going to pay Havlat 5 mil to toil the 4th line either. Best case scenario for those outside that top nine is that Havlat gets back in the lineup, shows he still can play, and DW trades him. However, I sincerely doubt that DW is going to give up on him considering how long he wanted to get Havlat and how good he has been when he was in the lineup.

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10-28-2013, 05:43 PM
  #667
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Look at their top nine when they're healthy and tell me who is supposed to be on the 4th line.

Marleau-Couture-Havlat
Hertl-Thornton-Burns
Torres-Pavelski-Kennedy

Which of those guys is he supposed to unseat given their past and their current contracts? I'm not saying that Wingels hasn't outplayed some of those guys but it's a small sample size for now and some like Torres and Havlat haven't gotten the chance yet while Kennedy just got here. They didn't re-sign Kennedy or Torres to their contracts to play the 4th line and they're not going to pay Havlat 5 mil to toil the 4th line either. Best case scenario for those outside that top nine is that Havlat gets back in the lineup, shows he still can play, and DW trades him. However, I sincerely doubt that DW is going to give up on him considering how long he wanted to get Havlat and how good he has been when he was in the lineup.
Yah exactly. We are getting to experience the pain of having a ridiculous amount of depth for like the first time in... well forever. Wingels belongs on the third line, but the third line can only hold 3 players. Pavelski isn't going anywhere so that leaves 2 spots.

Really, this team could ice a team and a half if everyone was healthy

Hertl - Thornton - Burns
Torres - Pavelski - Kennedy
Pelech - McCarthy - Burish

Marleau - Couture - Havlat
Nieto - Sheppard - Wingels
Desjardins - Hamilton - Brown

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10-28-2013, 05:45 PM
  #668
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Look at their top nine when they're healthy and tell me who is supposed to be on the 4th line.

Marleau-Couture-Havlat
Hertl-Thornton-Burns
Torres-Pavelski-Kennedy

Which of those guys is he supposed to unseat given their past and their current contracts? I'm not saying that Wingels hasn't outplayed some of those guys but it's a small sample size for now and some like Torres and Havlat haven't gotten the chance yet while Kennedy just got here. They didn't re-sign Kennedy or Torres to their contracts to play the 4th line and they're not going to pay Havlat 5 mil to toil the 4th line either. Best case scenario for those outside that top nine is that Havlat gets back in the lineup, shows he still can play, and DW trades him. However, I sincerely doubt that DW is going to give up on him considering how long he wanted to get Havlat and how good he has been when he was in the lineup.
I think something like this may be better

Hertl-Thornton-Burns
Marleau-Couture-Kennedy
Havlat-Pavelski-Wingles
Torres-Desjardins-Sheppard
Brown

As much as I like how Nieto has played, there is just too much depth for him to have a full time spot right now, but he shouldn't have to set in the press box either. Hamilton and McCarthy are just behind Nieto.

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10-28-2013, 05:48 PM
  #669
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Originally Posted by jwhitesj View Post
I think something like this may be better

Hertl-Thornton-Burns
Marleau-Couture-Kennedy
Havlat-Pavelski-Wingles
Torres-Desjardins-Sheppard
Brown

As much as I like how Nieto has played, there is just too much depth for him to have a full time spot right now, but he shouldn't have to set in the press box either. Hamilton and McCarthy are just behind Nieto.
and torres is to good to be wasted spending time on the 4th line with desjardins and sheppard.

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10-28-2013, 05:59 PM
  #670
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A really, REALLY good problem to have. But not worth spending too much time on except for rosterbation until it actually happens. Too many variables.

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10-28-2013, 05:59 PM
  #671
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Originally Posted by Tkachuk4MVP View Post
Nieto was hurt, so they had to juggle the lines again:


Hertl-JT-Sheppard
Marleau-Couture-Kennedy
McCarthy-Pavs-Wingels
Hamilton-Desi-Brown


The Thornton line still owned the Spezza line (not that Jason had much to work with) and Sheppard played pretty well, so it worked out.

And speaking of the Spezza line, Michalek has been getting abused by Sens fans so far this year. I didn't think he'd ever be a team's whipping boy, but he and Phillips are it right now for Ottawa.
Thanks. Not bad since each line was contributing. How did Brown do this game?

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10-28-2013, 05:59 PM
  #672
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and torres is to good to be wasted spending time on the 4th line with desjardins and sheppard.
Not really. That's a 4th line that could play 10+ minutes a night. That's essentially 2 #1 lines, a very strong number 2 with Pavelski and Havlat, and a solid 3rd line with Torres, Desjardin, and Sheppard.

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10-28-2013, 06:04 PM
  #673
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Originally Posted by jwhitesj View Post
Not really. That's a 4th line that could play 10+ minutes a night. That's essentially 2 #1 lines, a very strong number 2 with Pavelski and Havlat, and a solid 3rd line with Torres, Desjardin, and Sheppard.
Yes he is. Torres is a forechecking turnover monster who can score. You don't waste a talent like that with Desi and Shep. He's a quality F1. The 4th line is full of forecheckers as it is. Torres could float anywhere in the top 3 easily. If he was healthy, I'd put him with JT and Hurtl in a heartbeat. (assuming Burns is still injured of course)

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10-28-2013, 06:09 PM
  #674
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Originally Posted by Rapid eye movemenT View Post
Yes he is. Torres is a forechecking turnover monster. You don't waste a talent like that with Desi and Shep. He's a quality F1. The 4th line is full of forecheckers as it is. Torres could float anywhere in the top 3 easily. If he was healthy, I'd put him with JT and Hurtl in a heartbeat. (assuming Burns is still injured of course)
Its either Torres or Wingles on the 4th line. I like Wingles with Pavelski on the 3rd better.

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10-28-2013, 06:15 PM
  #675
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Originally Posted by jwhitesj View Post
Its either Torres or Wingles on the 4th line. I like Wingles with Pavelski on the 3rd better.
my vote(not that it counts for anything) would be either torres or kennedy on 4th line.

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