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06-19-2014, 12:49 PM
  #751
kyuss
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
Ah yes, the old system excuse. Staal's played for three different coaches with three different systems, and his current coach isn't exactly what you would call conservative. Tortorella was really the only guy that preached an overly-defensive system. There's no way to know how Schenn would've developed in NY.
You're right--there's no way to know how Schenn would have developed in NY, but Staal spent four years under Torts making the playoffs most of the time, Schenn spent his first four years under Wilson never making the playoffs. I'm pretty sure there would at least be the illusion of a better developed Schenn.

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06-19-2014, 12:56 PM
  #752
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This past season he was an above average 3rd pairing d-man. The season prior he was a #3. Where does he fall? I don't think a #4 while being a top PK guy is out of the question. He looked so so awful with Mez, and he looked very good with Gus. In the playoffs he had very strong play.

Even though this already turned into a JVR vs Schenn debate, JVR is what he is so far too. He is a perimeter player who is terrible on defense but has the ability to go through stretches on a goal scoring tear. While I would reverse the trade, lets not act like it would fix the problems the Flyers have.

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06-19-2014, 01:02 PM
  #753
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Originally Posted by kyuss View Post
You're right--there's no way to know how Schenn would have developed in NY, but Staal spent four years under Torts making the playoffs most of the time, Schenn spent his first four years under Wilson never making the playoffs. I'm pretty sure there would at least be the illusion of a better developed Schenn.
What difference does that make? Does playing in the playoffs early on in a player's career somehow do away with his physical limitations?

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06-19-2014, 01:05 PM
  #754
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Originally Posted by kyuss View Post
You're right--there's no way to know how Schenn would have developed in NY, but Staal spent four years under Torts making the playoffs most of the time, Schenn spent his first four years under Wilson never making the playoffs. I'm pretty sure there would at least be the illusion of a better developed Schenn.
Toronto certainly isn't an organization I trust for developing prospects.

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06-19-2014, 01:12 PM
  #755
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
What difference does that make? Does playing in the playoffs early on in a player's career somehow do away with his physical limitations?
Say what you will about Tortorella, but he was the perfect coach to bring all the good qualities out of players like Staal, Stralman, and Girardi (and even McDonagh).

Torts broke the defensive game down for them, and taught them sound fundamental, positional hockey. That did wonders for those players in particular.

AV came in and refined the edges, but Torts was a major factor in the Rangers team we see today. None of their top four is quite as good as they are now without Torts to lay the groundwork.

I firmly believe LSchenn would have found his game much sooner behind a coach like Tortorella. And I still believe he has the potential to find his game the way some of those Rangers did. Wilson and Laviolette were terrible for guys like Schenn.

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06-19-2014, 01:20 PM
  #756
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Say what you will about Tortorella, but he was the perfect coach to bring all the good qualities out of players like Staal, Stralman, and Girardi (and even McDonagh).

Torts broke the defensive game down for them, and taught them sound fundamental, positional hockey. That did wonders for those players in particular.

AV came in and refined the edges, but Torts was a major factor in the Rangers team we see today. None of their top four is quite as good as they are now without Torts to lay the groundwork.

I firmly believe LSchenn would have found his game much sooner behind a coach like Tortorella. And I still believe he has the potential to find his game the way some of those Rangers did. Wilson and Laviolette were terrible for guys like Schenn.
I'm well aware that Tortorella was really good for the development of those defenseman. But you know what else those guys do? They skate at least at an average level for an NHL defenseman. There's no further development to be had for Schenn unless he becomes a better skater. And like I said earlier, if he could fix his skating issues, he would have done so already. With average skating, Schenn would easily be a top four defenseman, but it's not, so he isn't.

Edit: And Schenn had his best seasons as a professional under both Lavy and Wilson. He was atrocious last year at times with Berube as the coach. None of this is really meant to trash Schenn. But people need to be realistic and just accept that he's probably always going to be a bottom pairing talent.

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06-19-2014, 01:31 PM
  #757
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
What difference does that make? Does playing in the playoffs early on in a player's career somehow do away with his physical limitations?
Yes and no. If you're making the playoffs consistently, you're probably running a consistent and successful system. It doesn't matter if its D heavy or not; young players are going to grasp the the game better and faster if they know what's expected of them and the players around them are executing reliably. And even if the young player is a complete passenger, they're going to look better on a better team.

How physically limited do you believe Schenn to be? Everyone knocks on his skating, but he's really not that bad.

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06-19-2014, 01:39 PM
  #758
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Originally Posted by kyuss View Post
Yes and no. If you're making the playoffs consistently, you're probably running a consistent and successful system. It doesn't matter if its D heavy or not; young players are going to grasp the the game better and faster if they know what's expected of them and the players around them are executing reliably. And even if the young player is a complete passenger, they're going to look better on a better team.

How physically limited do you believe Schenn to be? Everyone knocks on his skating, but he's really not that bad.

easily one of the worst skaters in the league in terms of speed. I'm thinking one of the 10 worst skaters in terms of speed

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06-19-2014, 01:45 PM
  #759
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I think most people are disagreeing with Meltzer because they're holding out hope that Schenn gets better so that the JVR trade doesn't look as terrible as it does now

I doubt Schenn gets much better than he already is

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06-19-2014, 01:50 PM
  #760
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Originally Posted by kyuss View Post
Yes and no. If you're making the playoffs consistently, you're probably running a consistent and successful system. It doesn't matter if its D heavy or not; young players are going to grasp the the game better and faster if they know what's expected of them and the players around them are executing reliably. And even if the young player is a complete passenger, they're going to look better on a better team.

How physically limited do you believe Schenn to be? Everyone knocks on his skating, but he's really not that bad.
Well not if the player isn't capable of getting to that level. They might know what it takes to get better, but that doesn't mean that it's just going to come to him.

He is easily one of the worst skaters in the entire NHL. And it's more than just that. It's his acceleration and agility that are particularly bad. He often looks like he's going to trip over his own feet.

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06-19-2014, 01:56 PM
  #761
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easily one of the worst skaters in the league in terms of speed. I'm thinking one of the 10 worst skaters in terms of speed
Agreed. He easily stands out as one of the slowest skaters. His acceleration is terrible.

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06-19-2014, 01:58 PM
  #762
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Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
I think most people are disagreeing with Meltzer because they're holding out hope that Schenn gets better so that the JVR trade doesn't look as terrible as it does now

I doubt Schenn gets much better than he already is
The JVR trade is done. We lost, and we won't be bridging the gap. We get that.

We are disagreeing because Schenn is not a finished product. Few defensemen (defensive or not) are done developing at 24. The only finished product from Luke's draft class is Doughty and maybe Pietrangelo ...everyone else still is developing (Bogosian, Myers, Gardiner, Schultz, Josi...even Karlsson and Carlson have room for growth).

Nobody holds lofty expectations for Luke. We're just saying he can still very well be a solid #4 guy moving forward as he gets older (like most defensive defenders). I don't think that's an outrageous claim.

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06-19-2014, 02:08 PM
  #763
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Originally Posted by Frodo Baggins View Post
Agreed. He easily stands out as one of the slowest skaters. His acceleration is terrible.
Zeppelin-like...agreed

Luke Schenn would probably reach that #4 level back when the league was clutch and grab and players like the Hatcher's and Tinordi's were impact D men.

His footwork indeed will continue to be a limiting factor for him going forward..can't imagine what he'll be like by his 30's in that regard. I suspect Ric Nattress would be a better option coming out of retirement than L Schenn....

I'm pretty confident that Hextall is aware of Luke's limitations and he won't have a long Flyer career as long as Hexy is GM....Holmgren would hold on to him and double down on his initial mistake.

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06-19-2014, 02:14 PM
  #764
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Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
I think most people are disagreeing with Meltzer because they're holding out hope that Schenn gets better so that the JVR trade doesn't look as terrible as it does now

I doubt Schenn gets much better than he already is
Well, Meltzer's been wrong before and Schenn's still really young. There's hope, and it doesn't only have to do with the possibility that the TOR/PHI trade will look better in time.

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06-20-2014, 12:20 PM
  #765
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I agree with Meltzer in that I think we've probably seen his ceiling. Where I do think Schenn can and will improve is in his consistency. When he's playing his best he's a decent/good 2nd pairing defensemen. Other times he's more like 7th defensemen material. I think he'll round out that aspect of his game.

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06-20-2014, 12:36 PM
  #766
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Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
I agree with Meltzer in that I think we've probably seen his ceiling. Where I do think Schenn can and will improve is in his consistency. When he's playing his best he's a decent/good 2nd pairing defensemen. Other times he's more like 7th defensemen material. I think he'll round out that aspect of his game.
He is Grossmann 2.0

Can play on middle pairing when good...other times...well..

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06-20-2014, 01:38 PM
  #767
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He is Grossmann 2.0

Can play on middle pairing when good...other times...well..
Except he has a lot more talent than Grossmann.
Schenn is actually not bad with the puck.
His first pass is pretty good. If the guy learns how to use his stick better and be better positionally (which usally happens over time with defenders) he's still going to be a decent #4 guy who will bring a whole lot of nasty to the mix.

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06-20-2014, 09:10 PM
  #768
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Except he has a lot more talent than Grossmann.
Schenn is actually not bad with the puck.
His first pass is pretty good. If the guy learns how to use his stick better and be better positionally (which usally happens over time with defenders) he's still going to be a decent #4 guy who will bring a whole lot of nasty to the mix.
He's better then Grossman. His last 30 games were real strong. He's going to be a solid #4 doubt we get more then that but thats not bad at all. His ability to finally learn how to fight will help his game more as players will be afraid to take liberties while he's on the ice and in front of the net

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06-20-2014, 09:16 PM
  #769
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Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
Except he has a lot more talent than Grossmann.
Schenn is actually not bad with the puck.
His first pass is pretty good. If the guy learns how to use his stick better and be better positionally (which usally happens over time with defenders) he's still going to be a decent #4 guy who will bring a whole lot of nasty to the mix.
And as I said...still a middle pairing. Which is fine except we have 3 other middle pairing guys who are all better than him today. My HOPE, is that we somehow acquire a real #1 and Schenn gets a shot beside him. He played will with Kimmo. Maybe he becomes the rock beside a two way number #1.

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06-20-2014, 09:17 PM
  #770
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So do you guys think bringing in Gord Murphy isn't just geared to Morin, Hagg, and Ghost, but also LSchenn?

And I'm surprised Schenn hasn't been sent to an extended power skating clinic. Last player I can remember the Flyers sent was Umberger in 06 or 07.

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06-20-2014, 10:01 PM
  #771
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So do you guys think bringing in Gord Murphy isn't just geared to Morin, Hagg, and Ghost, but also LSchenn?

And I'm surprised Schenn hasn't been sent to an extended power skating clinic. Last player I can remember the Flyers sent was Umberger in 06 or 07.
I thought I read Hextall already had the team hire full time trainers for the team. Holmgren said Hextall picked that up while in LA.

Schenn May not get any faster physically but he will get faster at recognizing situations and making decisions faster with experience. He is nothing like Grossmann who has zero ability with the puck. Schenn can make nice outlet passes and has a Decent shot. Schenn will hopefully be more like a Girardi as he matures.

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