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Old
10-29-2013, 04:16 PM
  #126
DelZottoHitTheNetJK
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
Stop using facts...



Sharp is MUCH better on the wing than he is at center. So let's not act like he is a good 2c.

I thought the point of the game was to stop the other team from scoring and score yourself, no? You don't care about half of the game?

Are you disqualifying tap in goals where he got himself in position? I hope you are doing the same thing for the players you listed above. I'll wait for those stats.
Sharp would be the top center on this team. Whether that makes him a good 2C or not I guess is up to interpretation, but it's a fact.

Are you seriously suggesting a top line center be primarily focused on keeping pucks out of the net? Maybe you're just so used to having Stepan in that spot that it's all you know. Third line centers keep the puck out of the net, which is what Stepan would be on several of the elite teams in the NHL.

I'm seriously disappointed with this boards inability to stop overrating it's own homegrown players. At least some of us can objectively look at our roster and players for what they actually are which is the only method of thinking that will improve the team going forward and hopefully this way of thinking is on Sather's mind although I'm not holding my breath for that one either

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10-29-2013, 04:18 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by WojtekGoalski View Post
Sharp would be the top center on this team. Whether that makes him a good 2C or not I guess is up to interpretation, but it's a fact.

Are you seriously suggesting a top line center be primarily focused on keeping pucks out of the net? Maybe you're just so used to having Stepan in that spot that it's all you know. Third line centers keep the puck out of the net, which is what Stepan would be on several of the elite teams in the NHL.

I'm seriously disappointed with this boards inability to stop overrating it's own homegrown players. At least some of us can objectively look at our roster and players for what they actually are which is the only method of thinking that will improve the team going forward and hopefully this way of thinking is on Sather's mind although I'm not holding my breath for that one either
its not a fact that sharp would be our best C. he'd for sure be on our 1st line, but hes a better winger than C and id rather have stepan as a center than sharp.

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10-29-2013, 04:20 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by WojtekGoalski View Post
Sharp would be the top center on this team. Whether that makes him a good 2C or not I guess is up to interpretation, but it's a fact.

Are you seriously suggesting a top line center be primarily focused on keeping pucks out of the net? Maybe you're just so used to having Stepan in that spot that it's all you know. Third line centers keep the puck out of the net, which is what Stepan would be on several of the elite teams in the NHL.

I'm seriously disappointed with this boards inability to stop overrating it's own homegrown players. At least some of us can objectively look at our roster and players for what they actually are which is the only method of thinking that will improve the team going forward and hopefully this way of thinking is on Sather's mind although I'm not holding my breath for that one either
Did you even read my post? Sharp IS NOT A CENTER. That's like saying Hossa would be this teams top center.

Where did I suggest that? Please show me.

I said the goal is to keep pucks out of your own net while scoring. That is where the goal differential comes in.

What is better:

Line A scores 200 goals, but gives up 195 goals

Line B scores 80 goals, but gives up 60 goals.

Same amount of ice time. Same competition. What you are neglecting is a large portion of hockey as a sport. Of course Line A is probably more fun to watch, but Line B is more effective.

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10-29-2013, 04:22 PM
  #129
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I won't take a shortened season as evidence of player development, but 10 games into the year after missing training camp? Now there's a body of work I can get behind.

Is it too late to trade for Jussi Jokinen?

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10-29-2013, 04:27 PM
  #130
DelZottoHitTheNetJK
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Originally Posted by ecemleafs View Post
its not a fact that sharp would be our best C. he'd for sure be on our 1st line, but hes a better winger than C and id rather have stepan as a center than sharp.
I'd agree on this with the current injuries. When Nash Callahan and Hagelin are back I'd rather have Sharp at C no questions asked, and if he was slotted below Stepan I might have to stop watching this team because he has more offensive ability in his left pinky toe than Stepan has in his whole body

Nash-Sharp-Callahan
Kreider-Stepan-Hagelin

Or whatever assortment of wingers. A top 6 resembling that is a top 6 that I could get down with IF Kreider can sustain some production. It's not the best in the league but should be enough considering we're strong at D and in net. I wouldn't be opposed to moving either Stepan or Brassard in a package for a 1C (I'd prefer to keep Brassard as I think he's a better puck carrier and has a better shot, Stepan probably also has more value)

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10-29-2013, 04:28 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by WojtekGoalski View Post
Sharp would be the top center on this team. Whether that makes him a good 2C or not I guess is up to interpretation, but it's a fact.

Are you seriously suggesting a top line center be primarily focused on keeping pucks out of the net? Maybe you're just so used to having Stepan in that spot that it's all you know. Third line centers keep the puck out of the net, which is what Stepan would be on several of the elite teams in the NHL.

I'm seriously disappointed with this boards inability to stop overrating it's own homegrown players. At least some of us can objectively look at our roster and players for what they actually are which is the only method of thinking that will improve the team going forward and hopefully this way of thinking is on Sather's mind although I'm not holding my breath for that one either
My point exactly. Everyone is fixated on the fact that he's our number one C which makes him a 1c but on the half the teams in the league he's a 2c and some teams a 3c. I like stepan but we over rate our guys way too often on this board. See what he does over 82 games this year then judge him not during a 48 game season where there was a lot of point per game players more than usual

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10-29-2013, 04:30 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
Did you even read my post? Sharp IS NOT A CENTER. That's like saying Hossa would be this teams top center.

Where did I suggest that? Please show me.

I said the goal is to keep pucks out of your own net while scoring. That is where the goal differential comes in.

What is better:

Line A scores 200 goals, but gives up 195 goals

Line B scores 80 goals, but gives up 60 goals.

Same amount of ice time. Same competition. What you are neglecting is a large portion of hockey as a sport. Of course Line A is probably more fun to watch, but Line B is more effective.
Sharp has played center from time to time for the hawks so that doesn't make sense. Hossa is winger and hasn't played center you don't compare the 2. If we traded for sharp to place center he would, like when the jets traded for buff from Chicago even tho he played fwd they moved him to D because that's what they needed. Sharp might be better suited on the wing in Chicago but if he came to New York we might need him more at C than W

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10-29-2013, 04:33 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
Did you even read my post? Sharp IS NOT A CENTER. That's like saying Hossa would be this teams top center.

Where did I suggest that? Please show me.

I said the goal is to keep pucks out of your own net while scoring. That is where the goal differential comes in.

What is better:

Line A scores 200 goals, but gives up 195 goals

Line B scores 80 goals, but gives up 60 goals.

Same amount of ice time. Same competition. What you are neglecting is a large portion of hockey as a sport. Of course Line A is probably more fun to watch, but Line B is more effective.

What you are neglecting is a guy. His name is Hank. He's the best goalie in the league.

You're also neglecting our entire D corp which with McDonagh Girardi and Staal is top 10 in the league.

In addition to all of this you're neglecting the same problem this team has had for the past umpteenth years. They can't score. I'd take a more offensive first line centerman over a defensive minded one who chips in here and there every day of the week. And so would the teams that are winning in this league, just ask CHI/PIT/SJ/LA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
I won't take a shortened season as evidence of player development, but 10 games into the year after missing training camp? Now there's a body of work I can get behind.

Is it too late to trade for Jussi Jokinen?
Quality post here. It is too late to trade for Jokinen. We could have picked him up off waivers for free. I don't think he minds though given his current situation lighting it up in PIT

And I forgot, the lockout was the reason Step missed training ca.. oh wait.

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10-29-2013, 04:36 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by theFiGS View Post
My point exactly. Everyone is fixated on the fact that he's our number one C which makes him a 1c but on the half the teams in the league he's a 2c and some teams a 3c. I like stepan but we over rate our guys way too often on this board. See what he does over 82 games this year then judge him not during a 48 game season where there was a lot of point per game players more than usual
Holy crap, this guy gets it. Don't bother trying to use objective logic on this board though my friend. I'm serious, I tried it last year and all the same Stepan fanboys came out with their torches and pitchforks.

Funny how I couldn't find them defending Stepan when he held out for an extra $100K, missed training camp, missed the whole preseason, and has played like **** for the first 10 games of the season.

Oh wait.. here they are

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10-29-2013, 04:36 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by WojtekGoalski View Post
I'd agree on this with the current injuries. When Nash Callahan and Hagelin are back I'd rather have Sharp at C no questions asked, and if he was slotted below Stepan I might have to stop watching this team because he has more offensive ability in his left pinky toe than Stepan has in his whole body

Nash-Sharp-Callahan
Kreider-Stepan-Hagelin

Or whatever assortment of wingers. A top 6 resembling that is a top 6 that I could get down with IF Kreider can sustain some production. It's not the best in the league but should be enough considering we're strong at D and in net. I wouldn't be opposed to moving either Stepan or Brassard in a package for a 1C (I'd prefer to keep Brassard as I think he's a better puck carrier and has a better shot, Stepan probably also has more value)
So you'd do stepan + for sharp?
Kreider sharp Nash
Hagelin brassard Callahan atleast gives us 2 legit top line guys but I wouldn't move stepan or brassard for sharp. He's the kind of guy I move picks and prospects for.

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10-29-2013, 04:36 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by WojtekGoalski View Post
What you are neglecting is a guy. His name is Hank. He's the best goalie in the league.

You're also neglecting our entire D corp which with McDonagh Girardi and Staal is top 10 in the league.

In addition to all of this you're neglecting the same problem this team has had for the past umpteenth years. They can't score. I'd take a more offensive first line centerman over a defensive minded one who chips in here and there every day of the week. And so would the teams that are winning in this league, just ask CHI/PIT/SJ/LA



Quality post here. It is too late to trade for Jokinen. We could have picked him up off waivers for free. I don't think he minds though given his current situation lighting it up in PIT
You are quite literally just ignoring valid points by re-directing the conversation. Not going to continue this argument.

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Sharp has played center from time to time for the hawks so that doesn't make sense. Hossa is winger and hasn't played center you don't compare the 2. If we traded for sharp to place center he would, like when the jets traded for buff from Chicago even tho he played fwd they moved him to D because that's what they needed. Sharp might be better suited on the wing in Chicago but if he came to New York we might need him more at C than W
Chicago has needed a #2c for a while. They even tried Patrick Kane who is a legit winger. Would you trade for him and make him a center? That's my point. He isn't a center. You can wish that he would be here in NY if he was ever dealt but he isn't good enough (scary word for Wolski coming up) defensively to make it worth it to switch him.

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10-29-2013, 04:38 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by WojtekGoalski View Post
Holy crap, this guy gets it. Don't bother trying to use objective logic on this board though my friend. I'm serious, I tried it last year and all the same Stepan fanboys came out with their torches and pitchforks.

Funny how I couldn't find them defending Stepan when he held out for an extra $100K, missed training camp, missed the whole preseason, and has played like **** for the first 10 games of the season.

Oh wait.. here they are
Have you looked in the mirror lately? We don't use logic? Coming from the guy who won't even take into account any sort of defensive play from his center. I bet you wish the NHL was like pond hockey. No need for defense!

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10-29-2013, 04:39 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by WojtekGoalski View Post
Holy crap, this guy gets it. Don't bother trying to use objective logic on this board though my friend. I'm serious, I tried it last year and all the same Stepan fanboys came out with their torches and pitchforks.

Funny how I couldn't find them defending Stepan when he held out for an extra $100K, missed training camp, missed the whole preseason, and has played like **** for the first 10 games of the season.

Oh wait.. here they are
Lol I don't care what player it is or if we traded for them or drafted them. I call it like I see it and I see that's he's not a first line center. If he works on his skating and shot he will be a very good 2 way 50-60 second line center but he's far from untouchable

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10-29-2013, 04:39 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by theFiGS View Post
So you'd do stepan + for sharp?
Kreider sharp Nash
Hagelin brassard Callahan atleast gives us 2 legit top line guys but I wouldn't move stepan or brassard for sharp. He's the kind of guy I move picks and prospects for.
I'm not trying to be mean but that is an awful deal for an undersized player who would get eaten alive defensively as a center and who is over 30 years old.

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10-29-2013, 04:44 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
You are quite literally just ignoring valid points by re-directing the conversation. Not going to continue this argument.



Chicago has needed a #2c for a while. They even tried Patrick Kane who is a legit winger. Would you trade for him and make him a center? That's my point. He isn't a center. You can wish that he would be here in NY if he was ever dealt but he isn't good enough (scary word for Wolski coming up) defensively to make it worth it to switch him.
Lol ok agree to disagree but every system and team is different. Maybe he isn't a center at this point and is more suited for wing but stepans defensive production doesn't allow me to over look his game by game play. He's been near invisible this year through ten games, slow start last year finished hot hopefully it happens this year but in my eyes he's a 2nd line center who can PK as well

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10-29-2013, 04:47 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
I'm not trying to be mean but that is an awful deal for an undersized player who would get eaten alive defensively as a center and who is over 30 years old.
I didn't say I'd do it. Are you even reading what I say? I said so you'd do stepan + for sharp I didn't say I'd do it. I said I wouldn't move stepan but he's not untouchable and it would take brassard + a prospect/pick to get sharp even tho he's over 30 he's still a top 6 sniper in this league

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10-29-2013, 04:47 PM
  #142
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Lol ok agree to disagree but every system and team is different. Maybe he isn't a center at this point and is more suited for wing but stepans defensive production doesn't allow me to over look his game by game play. He's been near invisible this year through ten games, slow start last year finished hot hopefully it happens this year but in my eyes he's a 2nd line center who can PK as well
Who on this team on offense has looked good? Richards. And that is debatable. Stepan has continually looked better and better as the season has moved along.

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10-29-2013, 04:49 PM
  #143
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So you'd do stepan + for sharp?
Kreider sharp Nash
Hagelin brassard Callahan atleast gives us 2 legit top line guys but I wouldn't move stepan or brassard for sharp. He's the kind of guy I move picks and prospects for.
Doubtful. I love Sharp but he's getting up there in age. I was using him more or less as an example of a type of player this team would benefit more from in that position.

I'd do Stepan + for Couture every day of the week though. SJ probably laughs at any proposal for Couture that has Stepan in it though and rightfully so, and I don't know what their needs are.


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Have you looked in the mirror lately? We don't use logic? Coming from the guy who won't even take into account any sort of defensive play from his center. I bet you wish the NHL was like pond hockey. No need for defense!
Dude. Do you hear yourself? You want top flight defensive play out of your top line center, when you have Lundqvist in net, Girardi/Staal/McDonagh in front of him and a solid group of defensive minded bottom 6 forwards, over offensive output?

Obviously defense is important. Anyone will tell you this; but not as the expense of putting the puck in the net on an already offensively challenged team that's strong from the net out.

I could also make you a highlight reel just from this season where Stepan missed his man that directly led to a goal against. Cry "missed camp" all you want; that was his own fault. The dude is completely over rated here

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10-29-2013, 04:49 PM
  #144
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Who on this team on offense has looked good? Richards. And that is debatable. Stepan has continually looked better and better as the season has moved along.
Seriously? I thought he looked terrible last night . And no they all look bad offensively but I think zuccarello and kreider looked good the past 2 games

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10-29-2013, 04:50 PM
  #145
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Didn't we just consider them some of the better ones? Wasn't our defense one of the youngest and best?
Our youth has not been enough to make the Rangers a yearly contender. We might see the good in them, but the standings say otherwise.

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10-29-2013, 04:52 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
Who on this team on offense has looked good? Richards. And that is debatable. Stepan has continually looked better and better as the season has moved along.
What have you been watching? I've watched every minute of every game and I cannot honestly recall a single nice play that Stepan has made with the puck all year thus far

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10-29-2013, 04:53 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by WojtekGoalski View Post
Dude. Do you hear yourself? You want top flight defensive play out of your top line center, when you have Lundqvist in net, Girardi/Staal/McDonagh in front of him and a slew of defensive minded bottom 6 forwards, over offensive output?

Obviously defense is important. Anyone will tell you this; but not as the expense of putting the puck in the net on an already offensively challenged team that's strong in net.

I could also make you a highlight reel just from this season where Stepan missed his man that directly led to a goal against. Cry "missed camp" all you want; that was his own fault. The dude is completely over rated here


I can not believe how much you waffle back and forth. First it's I don't care about my defensive play from my #1 center! Now you are trying to use that point to solidify your argument that Stepan is not a #1 center.

And you need to stop going to massive extremes so as to poke holes in my argument. Where did I say I wanted top flight defensive play from my center? I'm still waiting for you to show me where I said things previously. That's because I didn't say those things and the only way for you to try and prove your point is to put words in other peoples mouths. Sad.

I love how you think a player must be good at either offense OR defense. It can never be both.

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10-29-2013, 04:53 PM
  #148
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Just a gut feeling. There's no player liker JT here. And this team's pretty poor history with UFAs.
That's why his time with Buffalo has to be taken into account. He'll have almost a full season, too. Better than a 15 or so game sample size if it came after the deadline.

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10-29-2013, 04:55 PM
  #149
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Jussi Jokinen is 2014's Rob Brown.

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10-29-2013, 04:55 PM
  #150
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Seriously? I thought he looked terrible last night . And no they all look bad offensively but I think zuccarello and kreider looked good the past 2 games
I thought Kreider and Stepan looked good together last night.

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