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Vanek to Islanders for Moulson, 2014 1st, 2015 2nd *Part 2*

View Poll Results: How do you feel about the Vanek - Moulson trade? was it...
Good 16 50.00%
Bad 13 40.63%
Lateral move 4 12.50%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 32. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-31-2013, 01:28 AM
  #101
RMimagery
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MM-JT- KO wasn't working. How do I fix it if I'm the GM? Obviously #91 isn't going anywhere. The 2nd line is going great. Moving Bailey up could and probably would, affect the 2nd line's performance.

Do I think about moving Okposo instead of Moulson, maybe adding a prospect outside of our top 10? BUF probably wouldn't go for it. They got someone with sexy goals to replace their star winger. Wonder how the board would react to KO going elsewhere and getting 60+ points and having good playoffs for years, his best years. How many times have we experienced that? Ouch, i know, sorry. Okposo isn't big but has mass and is getting stronger and smarter. He's still a bit raw to me. He probably is the late bloomer we've been discussing. Not a first liner but this team is far from being put into a mold.

Vanek the Power Forward. He may not be the biggest or fiercest power forward out there but TV fits that bill more than anyone the team has had in a very long time. Bailey, Nielsen, Moulson, Grabner were all doing fine but the forwards as a group have to be one of the smallest in the league. Cizikas, Regin, PMB, McDonald... Only Clutter and Martin are great at what they do but after them, forward toughness is lacking. They're both not even that big, but play bigger than their size. Nelson has size but he's not scary, yet.

Tavares is getting stronger each year but his strength is more like a shield than a damaging force. We haven't had a pick emerge right from his first year and be a star since maybe Palffy in '91 and LaFontaine in '83. Each ending too soon. It's a rare thing. Wouldn't you want to put that player (and John should mean even more to us when he's done) in the best situation possible? Neither of those two were 6'2" and 210 like Vanek. Who really was our last power forward hitting 30 and 40 goals?

JT/TV should become a special duo. It'll need time. In life, when you get to the high end of any product, the cost for higher quality goes up exponentially. We had to give to get. We complained about the holes in Moulson's game since he started. Some fans were blind to his faults, some were blind to his attributes. Both are on the extreme side of the game.

The team should benefit from this deal. It may take half a season or more to become apparent. I think John is going to be the catalyst and figure out Vanek's tendencies and how to make it work. JT/MM didn't score that many goals off of rushes. It's inevitable that JT/TV will.

I miss PAP too and liked that line with MM and JT. Still, a weak line power wise. Any line with Moulson without both a strong C and a power forward is flawed.

If Vanek stays, and I think the biggest issue for him is how the team does this year - and I'm optimistic, I can see the top line that starts opening night in Brooklyn being our best since the Turgeon days. Strome, Griff and Pulock will have arrived. Nielsen, KO, Bailey, Cizikas and Hamonic should all be better. Garth went for it. Let it play out.


Last edited by RMimagery: 10-31-2013 at 01:37 AM.
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10-31-2013, 01:39 AM
  #102
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If you really, REALLY watch his play away from the puck, he'll piss you off big time.
he looked pretty damned good against the penguins in the play-offs last season.

for a guy whose job it is to stand in front of the net ( ala tomas holmstrom ) you people sure do bash his back checking game. when youre the last man in "no mans land" guess who will be the last man up the ice........( it sure as hell wouldnt be you )

he scored over 100 goals as an islanders player.....meaning he did his ****ing job and you want to complain about his lack of back checking?

give me moulson, tavares, and parenteau on the first line, and ill be happy.

give me any drunken wino off the street corner that can fall down and get hit with a puck, stopping it from going into the net, and id be happy.

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10-31-2013, 02:00 AM
  #103
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Actually come to think of it, the whole deterioration started when we let PA go. No one had problems with Moulson until PA was replaced with Boyes. At that point the line stopped functioning ideally and Tavares started having to do too much. The blame fell on moulson and Boyes. It's a Shame really and Snow is getting a free pass from many here because he masked his mismanagement by pulling an EA sports trade for a player with gaudy stats on the back of his hockey card.
Very accurate assessment. The reality is that JT although excellent at almost all offensive phases of the game is more a goal scorer first, a playmaker second. There was a better chemistry with PA because he's an excellent playmaker. He filled a role on the line that KO can't.

They really should have tried Bailey on the line for about a ten game trial, before making a trade with so many inherent risks.

As a point of reference; before the Goring trade, Torrey and Arbour experimented with Harris at center for about a month before pulling the trigger on the Goring move. In addition Bill had deals on the table for Daryl Sittler and Stan Weir. He made the best deal possible, not the most spectacular.

Torrey did not make the Sittler trade partially because he realized that he couldn't replace Gillies toughness and that despite the fact that Harris was the better all around player because of his defensive ability and faceoff skills, that Gillies was more valuable to the Islanders.

Sittler was a Hall of Fame player in his prime and much better than Goring but Bill didn't make the trade because the cost was too high. He waited for a better deal. For those that don't realize it Sittler was just a shade below Trotts in ability but Goring was the better fit.

The Vanek trade may or not work out if we're able to sign him, but it doesn't change the fact that Garth overpaid and that a Goalie would have been a better fit.

Unfortunately Garth is more Mad Mike than Bowtie Billy. Hopefully it will work out


Last edited by original islander: 10-31-2013 at 02:03 AM. Reason: Spelling
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Old
10-31-2013, 03:29 AM
  #104
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i can't believe how many people here, don't understand the concept of value. they didn't trade Moulson away because he didn't back-check. or because he didn't hit. or because he wasn't skilled.

they traded him away because they knew that he would be asking for much more than he was worth.

same with Streit. and PAP.

it's called value management. when someone demands more than they are worth, you replace them with a cheaper alternative, or with someone who makes the same, but brings more to the table.

and this is what Snow did. maybe not the best deal, but most people understand that his options were limited.

p.s. Moulson disappeared in the PO's. to win the cup, you rid yourself of these types of players. PAP is now on the 2nd line in COL, and is -4 and pointless in the past 6 games. anyone who would like to have Moulson, Streit and PAP on their team, for $15 mil per year, needs to give their head a shake.

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10-31-2013, 04:03 AM
  #105
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can we lock this thread and re-open it in 15 games?


But just fifteen? How about the week before trade deadline? That way we can all decide on our opinions based on what we have observed during the year.

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10-31-2013, 04:29 AM
  #106
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i can't believe how many people here, don't understand the concept of value. they didn't trade Moulson away because he didn't back-check. or because he didn't hit. or because he wasn't skilled.

they traded him away because they knew that he would be asking for much more than he was worth.

same with Streit. and PAP.

it's called value management. when someone demands more than they are worth, you replace them with a cheaper alternative, or with someone who makes the same, but brings more to the table.

and this is what Snow did. maybe not the best deal, but most people understand that his options were limited.

p.s. Moulson disappeared in the PO's. to win the cup, you rid yourself of these types of players. PAP is now on the 2nd line in COL, and is -4 and pointless in the past 6 games. anyone who would like to have Moulson, Streit and PAP on their team, for $15 mil per year, needs to give their head a shake.
Understand the concept but it's not what Garth did. He exchanged the asset for a more expensive asset and threw in 2 valuable commodities (the draft picks) to make it happen.

If anything Regier exhibited proper value management by exchanging Vanek for a cheaper alternative in Moulson and picking up 2 draft picks as a sweetener.

The worst part about it is that those draft picks are gold and could have been used to get the asset that was needed - a goaltender.

Proper asset management is shown by what Vancouver did with the Trevor Linden trade. They got Bryan Mcabe and Todd Bertuzzi and later flipped McCabe for a draft pick that turned out to be one of the Sedin twins and Bertuzzi for Luongo. That is why they made the Cup finals while we're normally out of the playoffs.

Proper asset management would have us getting draft picks or prospects for PA, Streit and Moulson if we couldn't afford them.


Last edited by original islander: 10-31-2013 at 04:34 AM. Reason: Added in the Linden trade
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10-31-2013, 04:43 AM
  #107
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they traded him away because they knew that he would be asking for much more than he was worth.
ok, be all tell all, just how much is moulson asking for?
you seem to have all the answers......so answer that.

and ill bet the ranch that moulson signs for less than vanek. and out scores him.

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10-31-2013, 05:11 AM
  #108
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ok, be all tell all, just how much is moulson asking for?
you seem to have all the answers......so answer that.

and ill bet the ranch that moulson signs for less than vanek. and out scores him.
you are on. where is my future ranch?

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10-31-2013, 06:04 AM
  #109
Chapin Landvogt
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ok, be all tell all, just how much is moulson asking for?
Gotta think he'll be looking for a contract much like Parenteau's.

Too many kids coming up who we expect to be better all-round NHLers to be keeping Matty around.

Even if we did, his role next to JT had already started sliding away in the playoffs and going into this season.

Is it worth arguing that Matty not next to JT means he'd no longer be in a position to succeed?

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10-31-2013, 06:27 AM
  #110
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Too many kids coming up who we expect to be better all-round NHLers to be keeping Matty around.
Other than Strome none of our prospects have the potential to score 30 goals a year. After Strome our only prospect with a shot at being a 20 goal guy is Nelson. Our forward prospect depth is nonexistent

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10-31-2013, 07:10 AM
  #111
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Other than Strome none of our prospects have the potential to score 30 goals a year. After Strome our only prospect with a shot at being a 20 goal guy is Nelson. Our forward prospect depth is nonexistent
Thus I wrote 'better all-round NHLer'...

Moulson can be brutally useless/ineffective when he's not gathering points.

I say this being one of his biggest proponents.

You're right though, next to no-one in the system is looking to be a regular 30 goal guy. Can't even claim that of Strome necessarily. Then again, it would be nothing short of thoroughly disappointing if Bailey and Okposo aren't finally 20-30-50+ guys this season. I see that as making up for the lack of Moulson's offense while avoiding Moulson's weaknesses - as long as JT and now Vanek produce at the clips they 'need to/should' be.

If JT and Vanek don't click, then we've got REAL problems. They are damned to be successful together. Their offensive success is intrinsically linked to our overall success.

I'd argue that they both need a creative spirit like Bailey next to them.

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10-31-2013, 07:34 AM
  #112
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i can't believe how many people here, don't understand the concept of value. they didn't trade Moulson away because he didn't back-check. or because he didn't hit. or because he wasn't skilled.

they traded him away because they knew that he would be asking for much more than he was worth.

same with Streit. and PAP.

it's called value management. when someone demands more than they are worth, you replace them with a cheaper alternative, or with someone who makes the same, but brings more to the table.

and this is what Snow did. maybe not the best deal, but most people understand that his options were limited.

p.s. Moulson disappeared in the PO's. to win the cup, you rid yourself of these types of players. PAP is now on the 2nd line in COL, and is -4 and pointless in the past 6 games. anyone who would like to have Moulson, Streit and PAP on their team, for $15 mil per year, needs to give their head a shake.
If Colorado thinks PA is a bad contract I'd gladly take him back for a song and a dance. Something tells me they don't think that.

Do you think Vanek is worth the $8m he is going to ask for?

Paying moulson and PA instills a structure within the organization. You come here, you work your butt off, you get paid when your time comes. Overpaying Vanek blows that structure up and potentially creates dissension. I've read the buffalo lockeroom was a mess after they overpaid Leino and ehrhoff. Snow had the makings of something good here and I don't like what he did.

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10-31-2013, 07:37 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
Thus I wrote 'better all-round NHLer'...

Moulson can be brutally useless/ineffective when he's not gathering points.

I say this being one of his biggest proponents.

You're right though, next to no-one in the system is looking to be a regular 30 goal guy. Can't even claim that of Strome necessarily. Then again, it would be nothing short of thoroughly disappointing if Bailey and Okposo aren't finally 20-30-50+ guys this season. I see that as making up for the lack of Moulson's offense while avoiding Moulson's weaknesses - as long as JT and now Vanek produce at the clips they 'need to/should' be.

If JT and Vanek don't click, then we've got REAL problems. They are damned to be successful together. Their offensive success is intrinsically linked to our overall success.

I'd argue that they both need a creative spirit like Bailey next to them.
You keep harping on Moulson not being a good all-around player... Vanek isn't known to be much more than a more skilled, bulkier, European version of Matt Moulson. Most of Vanek's goals come from the same area moulson does his dirty work.

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10-31-2013, 07:54 AM
  #114
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I think people on both sides of the argument are selling the players short. I have a feeling that they are much closer than most seem to give either credit for. Vanek is enjoying quite a bit of hype and Moulson is most certainly underrated by many.

Still, Vanek has shown in the past - for example last year's first 15 games - that he can absolutely dominate games by himself. Vanek has the ability to take over the pace and direction of games and simply make things happen.

Yet - and this is the reason why he is not in the area of other elite players in the league - he cannot sustain that quality of play over longer stretches or even a whole season like real superstars can. This is where the potential of this trade is lying, because the same can be said about JT. He can dominate games but he lacks the consistency to do it on a nightly basis.

With both of them maybe feeding off each other and maybe shouldering the load this could very well have a positive effect on both.

For Moulson this is not true in my opinion. As far as I can remember Moulson never forced his play on a game and "made it his" if you get my meaning. In my opinion Moulson is doing the best of his abilities and reaching his potential, Vanek and JT could still get higher than where they currently are. That's the gamble the Islanders took here.

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10-31-2013, 08:16 AM
  #115
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Actually come to think of it, the whole deterioration started when we let PA go. No one had problems with Moulson until PA was replaced with Boyes. At that point the line stopped functioning ideally and Tavares started having to do too much. The blame fell on moulson and Boyes. It's a Shame really and Snow is getting a free pass from many here because he masked his mismanagement by pulling an EA sports trade for a player with gaudy stats on the back of his hockey card.
dont think that is true at all...the first few years moulson was solely a surprise, so you werent going to hear many complaints when a waiver pickup resulted in 30 goals.....once you start doing this a few times, people start demanding a little more and start realizing while goals are great, a complete game wins games

i vividly remember people complaining about moulson's game the last year of PA

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10-31-2013, 08:48 AM
  #116
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dont think that is true at all...the first few years moulson was solely a surprise, so you werent going to hear many complaints when awaiver pickup resulted in 30 goals.....once you start doing this a few times, people start demanding a little more and start realizing while goals are great, a complete game wins games

i vividly remember people complaining about moulson's game the last year of PA
I feel like I've said this around 1000 times, but Moulson was NOT a waiver pickup.

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10-31-2013, 09:02 AM
  #117
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I feel like I've said this around 1000 times, but Moulson was NOT a waiver pickup.
he essentially was...

and unless you said it on average 4 times a post.....no you havent said it 1000 times

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10-31-2013, 09:30 AM
  #118
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Not saying I posted it here 1000 times, just that every half informed Isle fan I talk to over the last few years thinks he was a waiver pickup. And a free agent signing is not remotely the same as a waiver pickup -- no where else does anyone ever claim a free agent signing is essentially a waiver claim, so stop.

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10-31-2013, 09:56 AM
  #119
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I think people on both sides of the argument are selling the players short. I have a feeling that they are much closer than most seem to give either credit for. Vanek is enjoying quite a bit of hype and Moulson is most certainly underrated by many.

Still, Vanek has shown in the past - for example last year's first 15 games - that he can absolutely dominate games by himself. Vanek has the ability to take over the pace and direction of games and simply make things happen.

Yet - and this is the reason why he is not in the area of other elite players in the league - he cannot sustain that quality of play over longer stretches or even a whole season like real superstars can. This is where the potential of this trade is lying, because the same can be said about JT. He can dominate games but he lacks the consistency to do it on a nightly basis.

With both of them maybe feeding off each other and maybe shouldering the load this could very well have a positive effect on both.

For Moulson this is not true in my opinion. As far as I can remember Moulson never forced his play on a game and "made it his" if you get my meaning. In my opinion Moulson is doing the best of his abilities and reaching his potential, Vanek and JT could still get higher than where they currently are. That's the gamble the Islanders took here.
Would you be able to elaborate on the nature of how Vanek takes over games? I want to believe he can do it since I have a vested interest in seeing it happen, but from what I've read and seen it seems he is a goal scorer who feels most at home 10 feet and closer to the goal. it's hard to take over a game all by yourself with that approach.

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10-31-2013, 10:12 AM
  #120
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dont think that is true at all...the first few years moulson was solely a surprise, so you werent going to hear many complaints when a waiver pickup resulted in 30 goals.....once you start doing this a few times, people start demanding a little more and start realizing while goals are great, a complete game wins games

i vividly remember people complaining about moulson's game the last year of PA
idk, I remember people LOVING that line that year and being disappointed that it was being broken up but hoping that Nino would take his place.

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10-31-2013, 11:05 AM
  #121
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I definitely agree that you aren't going to see amazing defense from Vanek. Or even good defense.

The main difference is that Vanek CREATES offense. Moulson NEEDS another player -- he is a passenger. He is damn good at what he does, but his inability to create any offense, beat a player, stickhandle, carry the puck, make moves, etc., makes him a very limited player. If people can't see that difference between Vanek and Moulson, I don't know what to say.

People aren't happy with the move because we added a more complete player in terms of two-way play. We are happy because we added a much more complete OFFENSIVE player. The amount of flexibility this gives our roster is indirectly attributed to Vanek's game. We can have a duo on one line that can both create offense and space. We can have two lines that both need to be keyed on. It is the same flexibility that other duos around the league have -- Kane/Toews, Getzlaf/Perry, Crosby/Malkin, the list goes on and on. All of those duos are offensive CREATORS. Think a player like Kessel versus a player like Clarkson. Kessel can't play defense for crap -- but he can take over a game on the offensive side. Clarkson and Moulson can't. This doesn't mean Moulson 'stinks'. He's a valuable guy because he can score. He just isn't dynamic.

And lastly, as others mentioned (I remember a great rant post last year from LAIslanderFan) he was putridly lazy in pursuing the puck last year. That was his ticket out of here. It's not that he's the last man back because he's in front of the opposing net. It's the lazy route to the puck. The checking with his back half-heartedly. The inability to win a board battle. That crap was getting very tiresome. Anybody see Vanek against the Rangers? He was laying CHECKS. I mean REAL checks. Boards were banged. I thought it was Martin, but I looked up and saw 26.

We need to let the dust settle. Both players need to settle in. If anybody thinks that Moulson doesn't have a temporary fire lit under his ass after he's been traded hasn't been in a competitive environment enough. Of course he is going to skate a little harder, be a bit more feisty, etc. Let's wait 20 games when the Sabres are so far down in the standings that they find it hard to get up for games. Let's see how he plays then. Let's wait 20 games to see how Vanek gels. His game will take longer to develop on the Island because of all of the above. He CREATES offense, therefore he needs to gel with others that are doing that. You don't need as much chemistry to stand in front of the net and bang in goals -- thus Moulson will appear he fits quicker than Vanek does.

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10-31-2013, 11:11 AM
  #122
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Every possible point has been made in these threads (good and bad). We have analyzed this deal to death (pro and cons). Let's put this topic to rest, there is nothing we can do about this deal. Those in favour of the deal will not be convinced to not like it and I'm guessing vica versa. Let's just wait a few weeks, see if Vanek and Tavares can generate that chemistry we dream of and stop torturing ourselves with all the negative. It's early in the season, a 5 game win streak would change everything. Get Vis and Strait back soon and start rolling. Everyone, all at once......LET"S GO ISLANDERS

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10-31-2013, 11:12 AM
  #123
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Would you be able to elaborate on the nature of how Vanek takes over games? I want to believe he can do it since I have a vested interest in seeing it happen, but from what I've read and seen it seems he is a goal scorer who feels most at home 10 feet and closer to the goal. it's hard to take over a game all by yourself with that approach.


Watch the whole thing, but pay particular attention what he does at 0:30. That's what Vanek can do. Same game he also had two silly assists, one on a pass while in mid-air.

He gets fired up for Bruin games for whatever reason, certified Bruin killer.

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10-31-2013, 11:20 AM
  #124
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I figured it out...snow wants to sign Moulson but Moulson will ask too much...snow sends him to bufalo where he believes he will not produce the same...moulson comes crawling back at a bargain price...so far the plan is not working

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10-31-2013, 11:20 AM
  #125
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David Clarkson at he same age as Moulson signed a 7 year 5.25 mil per deal. He has a whopping 1(one) 30 goal season and has never had more than 50 points in a season.He has less than 100career total goals.

Moulson has 3three 30 goals seasons,has got over 125 career goals, and has played less years thanClarkson....



My point is that anyone who thinks Moulson wont be getting a nice payday North of 5mil and closer to 6mil per imo, is not living on planet earth...

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