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Old
04-09-2014, 09:35 AM
  #551
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Love Giroux

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

#1 on the list for the last three years.....

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04-09-2014, 09:37 AM
  #552
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Love Giroux

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

#1 on the list for the last three years.....
Who cares if he's #1. That's points. Everyone knows points don't actually matter and PPG is what really matters...

Oh wait, he's #4 in that.

He's still not a top 5 player!

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04-09-2014, 10:05 AM
  #553
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no toews on that list. hard to imagine on such a high scoring talented team.

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04-09-2014, 10:22 AM
  #554
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Not good enough for Canada.

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04-09-2014, 10:56 AM
  #555
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Originally Posted by Hollywood Couturier View Post
Who cares if he's #1. That's points. Everyone knows points don't actually matter and PPG is what really matters...

Oh wait, he's #4 in that.

He's still not a top 5 player!
That is a good point. Crosby is only 27 points behind G and yet G has played in an entire season's worth of games more.

I get axed every time I say it but I don't think G has ever been in the top 5.

He's obviously deserving of his captaincy and is still an incredible player, however.

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04-09-2014, 11:02 AM
  #556
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You know. Staying healthy and playing the games to help your team win is pretty damn important too.

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04-09-2014, 11:14 AM
  #557
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You know. Staying healthy and playing the games to help your team win is pretty damn important too.
I would agree, but I think that constitutes being a great team player. Some relatively average players have rarely been injured and played in many consecutive games, and yet others have helped the team win, sometimes by riding the pine and just being a team leader (Hal Gill).

It's just one aspect of being a team player, but when you're using the PPG stat, you're normally rating strictly on star power.

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04-09-2014, 11:18 AM
  #558
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I would agree, but I think that constitutes being a great team player. Some relatively average players have rarely been injured and played in many consecutive games, and yet others have helped the team win, sometimes by riding the pine and just being a team leader (Hal Gill).

It's just one aspect of being a team player, but when you're using the PPG stat, you're normally rating strictly on star power.
There's a difference between talent and value. Value comes from actually playing the games. Total numbers denote value.

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04-09-2014, 11:18 AM
  #559
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That is a good point. Crosby is only 27 points behind G and yet G has played in an entire season's worth of games more.

I get axed every time I say it but I don't think G has ever been in the top 5.

He's obviously deserving of his captaincy and is still an incredible player, however.

I can see where you are coming from. Giroux's impact on a game is sometimes night and day depending on his opponent. Great players are great no matter who they play but Claude is more effective against teams that don't pressure the puck.

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04-09-2014, 11:28 AM
  #560
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I can see where you are coming from. Giroux's impact on a game is sometimes night and day depending on his opponent. Great players are great no matter who they play but Claude is more effective against teams that don't pressure the puck.
Eh...Crosby and Malkin have both struggled against Couturier, and Crosby has struggled against Plekanec and Bergeron IIRC. That doesn't make them any less great, they're just not Gretzky or Lemieux.

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04-09-2014, 11:40 AM
  #561
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I can see where you are coming from. Giroux's impact on a game is sometimes night and day depending on his opponent. Great players are great no matter who they play but Claude is more effective against teams that don't pressure the puck.
You could say that about the whole team though.

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04-09-2014, 11:46 AM
  #562
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Eh...Crosby and Malkin have both struggled against Couturier, and Crosby has struggled against Plekanec and Bergeron IIRC. That doesn't make them any less great, they're just not Gretzky or Lemieux.

True, but look at what happened to teams that took time and space away from giroux aka the devils.

Malkin may go from a 1.4 ppg player to a .5 ppg player. whereas giroux completely disappeared vs the devils

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04-09-2014, 12:59 PM
  #563
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Originally Posted by ericWONT View Post
That is a good point. Crosby is only 27 points behind G and yet G has played in an entire season's worth of games more.

I get axed every time I say it but I don't think G has ever been in the top 5.

He's obviously deserving of his captaincy and is still an incredible player, however.
Maybe I am a little confused with your post, but according to this list, he is top 5 in PPG, with only Crosby, Malkin and Stamkos ahead of him in PPG for this time period.

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04-09-2014, 01:04 PM
  #564
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True, but look at what happened to teams that took time and space away from giroux aka the devils.

Malkin may go from a 1.4 ppg player to a .5 ppg player. whereas giroux completely disappeared vs the devils
That playoff series? He put up 3 points in 4 games while injured, didn't he? I don't know where I can look it up...

I think Giroux's biggest "problem" is consistency. I saw a chart at the end of last year comparing a players point totals against playoff teams, versus non-playoff teams. Out of all the names on the list, Giroux had the biggest disparity - scoring much more against the playoff teams. Just by eyeballing it, I'd imagine he's picked it up a good bit this year, but you can still see sometimes that he just doesn't hit that extra gear unless the game is important. Most of the other top players were pretty even, notably Crosby, who's numbers were pretty much identical.

The NHL season is a marathon though, not a sprint. If he brought his beast mode every single night, I don't think he'd make it through the season and stay healthy.

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04-09-2014, 01:04 PM
  #565
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True, but look at what happened to teams that took time and space away from giroux aka the devils.

Malkin may go from a 1.4 ppg player to a .5 ppg player. whereas giroux completely disappeared vs the devils
Giroux had 3 points in 4 games against the Devils in the playoff series a couple of years ago. Way too much is made out of the Devils shutting the Flyers down in that series. It's not talked about enough how much that series against the Pens left them gassed. That's why I'm not excited to play the Pens if they advance past the first round. A series between the two is just all out war. Any long run would difficult after playing the Rangers and Pens in the first two rounds.

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Old
04-09-2014, 01:34 PM
  #566
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That playoff series? He put up 3 points in 4 games while injured, didn't he? I don't know where I can look it up...

I think Giroux's biggest "problem" is consistency. I saw a chart at the end of last year comparing a players point totals against playoff teams, versus non-playoff teams. Out of all the names on the list, Giroux had the biggest disparity - scoring much more against the playoff teams. Just by eyeballing it, I'd imagine he's picked it up a good bit this year, but you can still see sometimes that he just doesn't hit that extra gear unless the game is important. Most of the other top players were pretty even, notably Crosby, who's numbers were pretty much identical.

The NHL season is a marathon though, not a sprint. If he brought his beast mode every single night, I don't think he'd make it through the season and stay healthy.
I heard something similar like a high percentage of his points came from big games against some of the worst teams in the league. I love giroux and am a believer that he can lead us to a stanley cup, but I think one of the reasons why we are so bad on the road against top teams is because Teams can match up their best line against Giroux's line and we can't match up coots against other teams best lines.

Those two things really dont matter for teams like boston, chicago, LA, pittsburgh

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04-09-2014, 01:50 PM
  #567
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I heard something similar like a high percentage of his points came from big games against some of the worst teams in the league. I love giroux and am a believer that he can lead us to a stanley cup, but I think one of the reasons why we are so bad on the road against top teams is because Teams can match up their best line against Giroux's line and we can't match up coots against other teams best lines.

Those two things really dont matter for teams like boston, chicago, LA, pittsburgh
I'm looking at NHL.com right now, probably not being thorough enough, but the only two non playoff teams he beat up on this year are Caps & Islanders. 9 points in 5 games vs. WSH (which were important games at the time), and 6 points in 4 games vs. NYI.

I don't know if it's the match ups, or if it's just the general style of play of tighter checking teams. For example, he's got 3 points in 2 games against CHI, who have players who have Keith & Toews who he has to contend with, but only 2 points in 4 games against NJD. Likewise, he has 3 points in 2 games against SJS, who allow fewer goals per game than both of those teams.

However, looking at GA/G on NHL.com reads like a list of teams G struggles against, save a few exceptions like San Jose and Pittsburgh.

Edit: I do want to say, that I think Giroux has it in him to pick it up against those teams. We saw in March what he could do even with the tight checking against teams like St. Louis.


Last edited by Funf: 04-09-2014 at 01:57 PM.
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04-09-2014, 01:51 PM
  #568
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I heard something similar like a high percentage of his points came from big games against some of the worst teams in the league. I love giroux and am a believer that he can lead us to a stanley cup, but I think one of the reasons why we are so bad on the road against top teams is because Teams can match up their best line against Giroux's line and we can't match up coots against other teams best lines.

Those two things really dont matter for teams like boston, chicago, LA, pittsburgh
The problem is secondary scoring. There is 1 maybe 2 players in the league that can consistently carry a team offensively by themselves. Giroux has done a hell of a job at doing that for the majority of this season.

He's the best player this team has had since Lindros.

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04-09-2014, 01:54 PM
  #569
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I'm looking at NHL.com right now, probably not being thorough enough, but the only two non playoff teams he beat up on this year are Caps & Islanders. 9 points in 5 games vs. WSH (which were important games at the time), and 6 points in 4 games vs. NYI.

I don't know if it's the match ups, or if it's just the general style of play of tighter checking teams. For example, he's got 3 points in 2 games against CHI, who have players who have Keith & Toews who he has to contend with, but only 2 points in 4 games against NJD. Likewise, he has 3 points in 2 games against SJS, who allow fewer goals per game than both of those teams.

However, looking at GA/G on NHL.com reads like a list of teams G struggles against, save a few exceptions like San Jose and Pittsburgh.
When looking at those stats can u tell what games he has had powerplay points vs even strength points?

He struggles with the devils because they have the best pk in the league. He primarily does his damage on the pp. It is the only time he gets time and space.

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04-09-2014, 02:04 PM
  #570
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When looking at those stats can u tell what games he has had powerplay points vs even strength points?

He struggles with the devils because they have the best pk in the league. He primarily does his damage on the pp. It is the only time he gets time and space.
Yeah, it's all on NHL.com under "Splits".

As far as PP production goes - he's scored 58% of his points at ES. 20 goals, 27 assists at even strength.

Edit: Here's the link.

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04-09-2014, 02:05 PM
  #571
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When looking at those stats can u tell what games he has had powerplay points vs even strength points?

He struggles with the devils because they have the best pk in the league. He primarily does his damage on the pp. It is the only time he gets time and space.
I think that comes back to the lack of top end support.

We have a deep offensive team, 7 20 goal scorers I believe, but no one else on the team is really that threatening. There's no one else that we look to, to do anything.

It's him, a huge gap, and then a lot of above average players. If you look at the top scorers every year there is always a teammate or (usually) linemate within a few spots of them. That's not been the case for Giroux, and it's why we can't win against tough checking playoff teams.

We don't have the goaltending or D to play their game, and we don't have the top end talent to overcome it.

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04-09-2014, 02:05 PM
  #572
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When looking at those stats can u tell what games he has had powerplay points vs even strength points?

He struggles with the devils because they have the best pk in the league. He primarily does his damage on the pp. It is the only time he gets time and space.
Just looking at the splits page on NHL.com I see that G has 20 goals and 27 assists for 47 points at even strength while he has 7 Goals and 27 assists for 34 points on the PP. I wouldn't really say he does most of his damage on the PP, especially when it comes to goals.

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04-09-2014, 02:08 PM
  #573
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Just looking at the splits page on NHL.com I see that G has 20 goals and 27 assists for 47 points at even strength while he has 7 Goals and 27 assists for 34 points on the PP. I wouldn't really say he does most of his damage on the PP, especially when it comes to goals.
WHen i say most of his damange it just seems that way. When you factor in P/60 for even strength play vs most of the top centers that should be intresting.

sits at 42 in the league.

http://www.extraskater.com/players/s...t=ev&type=rate

compare that to pp

http://www.extraskater.com/players/s...pe=rate&sit=pp


Last edited by Jtown: 04-09-2014 at 02:11 PM. Reason: found it
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04-09-2014, 02:12 PM
  #574
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WHen i say most of his damange it just seems that way. When you factor in P/60 for even strength play vs most of the top centers that should be intresting.

sits at 42 in the league.

http://www.extraskater.com/players/s...t=ev&type=rate
He's 36 in the league according to another site. Next closest Flyer forward is Couturier at 73rd.

I'm willing to bet no other top scorer has a gap like that.

EDIT: I filtered it by 1000 minutes. There were a couple guys just below 1000 so the gap isn't as crazy.

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04-09-2014, 02:15 PM
  #575
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He's 36 in the league according to another site. Next closest Flyer forward is Couturier at 73rd.

I'm willing to bet no other top scorer has a gap like that.

EDIT: I filtered it by 1000 minutes. There were a couple guys just below 1000 so the gap isn't as crazy.
last year he was 88. Since we traded richards and carter we have been a bad Even strength team and I think part of that is on Giroux .

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